McLaren 12c not selling?

[baileyconstruct]

When I was in a dilemma about which to buy I have been watching the classifieds with interest on the mp4 and the demand for them.

The same cars I was looking at in September are still on sale and have dropped from 166k to £149k. This is astounding depreciation for cars sat at the dealers which they are reducing.

Glad I didn't buy one if this is how they are depreciating and there was an article in Evo about how they drop faster than a lead balloon.

Just wonder why they are not that desirable? Any thoughts?

[baileyconstruct]

Streetrod said:

Bit of an odd statement as there are only 18 MP4 for sale in the classifieds and the prices seem to cover a reasonably wide price range. Compare them to the Ferrari 458's of which 80 are for sale and I think you will see a similar pattern in pricing, so I would conclude that nothing unusual is happening here.

Factor in the recent release of the spyder versions of both cars and this will have a softening effect on the coupe's values

These car will depreciate, that is a fact, if you expect to buy into this market and not have that happen then you are kidding yourself

How can my statement be odd??? The fact is I have commented on the fact that the cars being advertised are in majority the same cars that i noticed advertised in late July and August. I merely have stated that back then they were 165k plus.

I appreciate there are more 458 for sale but seem they sell quickly.

I realise the cars will depreciate but out of the 18 cars on there 11 are the same. Both of the ones at mclaren London have been advertised and I drove the light silver one back in late August. Also the one at graypaul and mclaren Manchester.

It was merely an observation.

Edited by baileyconstruct on Saturday 29th December 17:57

[baileyconstruct]

sone said:

Went to look at one at my local dealership in fact I went twice, that was 3 months ago and I still haven't had a call back. With customer service like that who's gonna buy them.
When I'm looking at buying a car for 150k ish I expect a car dealer to pay me the courtesy of a phone call., so off I went back to Ferrari and bought a Scud. Lesson learnt.

Steve

Good choice but I must give credit where it's due. Mclaren London were superb in their customer relations. Couldn't fault really and they drove the car to me for a test drive.

[baileyconstruct]

mpbcs said:

I spent the morning testing the 458 and mp4 back to back and loved both. I've also been watching the mclaren market for a while and have been surprised by the lack of movement. I think I will go for the mp4, but won't be paying dealer offer and can't understand the 20k difference between some dealers for what are similarly specced cars.

Good choice and I liked the mp4 to but at the time it was the same money as a 458 so I went with that. Also the 7 year warranty pack is a good thing also.

However now the market for the mp4 is different as they have been reduced by 20k. Check out mclaren London as they would surely deal on their cars as they will have had for near on 6 months.

[baileyconstruct]

mpbcs said:

I will probably look at their dark grey car next week, i was not sure about the red inserts but I think the interior needs the carbon, so not keen on the silver car. The car at dick lovetts is stunning but 20k more than the London cars?? what do you think they let them go for? 140ish?

I liked the dark grey one also but it was the red interior that I never liked. Also the silvery blue grey one has a lot less mileage.

I bet they would deal at 145k but obviously push them as hard you can. Just think this car was up for 169k when I was looking in August. Massive discount if you can get for 145k.

The only thing I would say is try and get rid if your car and don't ox with them. They offered 10k less than what I got with graypaul of Nottingham.

[baileyconstruct]

mpbcs said:

My car will be going in the classifieds next week I think.. Got a silly bid from dick lovetts. Not many really good gen2 gt3's out there. I was hoping the red would not be too garish.

It was a little for me but could be a grower. The dark grey certainly had a better overall spec.

I'm sure your gt3 will sell as they are well known and the best of the Porsches.

Post on here when you have done the deal on the mp4 but make sure you get a full tank and also take up the 2 year servicing that mclaren London are offering on PH

[baileyconstruct]

garyhun said:

Isn't the correct short name '12C' as all McLaren's have an MP4 chassis?

Yes it is 12c but just like mp4 better

[baileyconstruct]

Chrism355 said:

The spread in the price is alot down to spec. Just like Ferrari the options list is expensive and soon adds up. The cars held by London and Graypaul are for want of a better phrase "poverty spec" early cars that were early cars that have been flipped, as better specced cars come to market then the only way to shift these cars is to drop the price. The carbon interior is a must to lift the interior as is sports exhaust, the London car is nice but red interior is a very strong colour to live with.
These cars are the same as any car in this segment, there has been a big hit to all residuals in this sector Ferrari included. The average MP4 was around £190K new, the average 458 was around £220K now look again at the classifieds. there is a black 458 £15k under list with delivery mileage when did you last see Ferrari cars going under list. Give the city boys their bonuses back so they can buy their toys

You see I thought both the London cars were really well spec'd especially the dark grey one. Don't get me wrong, they weren't silly spec'd but both cars seemed just right. I'm not sure what else is missing and both had the sports exhaust. Only thing really is ceramic brakes but i felt the car I drove (non ceramic) was just fine without.

The point of the thread is the massive drop from dealer price in 3 months. One main issue I think is that the 12c doesn't have a predecessor to buffer itself against in value terms.

Nevertheless cracking car for 149k but still not sure on the door practicality (very cool though)

Funny you should mention average prices as I did ask graypauls about the average cost of the 458's they sold and it was 205k which is 35k over list. I asked the same to mclaren London on new cars and they said about 200k, and to be honest the option list on both cars were ridiculous and also you don't get ceramics on the mac and I believe these are an 8k option???

Also the ones at London aren't early cars really as they are nov/dec 11 registered which they are just over 1 years old. The graypauls one is on SOR and I think the owner is still trying to hold out for the money.

Edited by baileyconstruct on Saturday 29th December 21:05

Edited by baileyconstruct on Saturday 29th December 21:09

[baileyconstruct]

mpbcs said:

I was initially concerned about the doors but the distance they extend away from the car is no further than how far you have to open a normal door.. I think they look impractical as thy are not the norm. I do not agree that the London grey car is poverty spec in any way... What is the justification for that being said? Am I missing something?

Both the London cars are the right spec and are what I would have spec,d. There is no such thing as a poverty spec or enhanced spec. They both have sat nav, sport exhaust, carbon, paint spec, sound system upgrade etc. not sure what else you would want really? The dark grey also has carbon ceramic discs also

With regards to the doors it is correct they don't open much wider than a normal car door. Only thing is if you park next to other cars you can't squeeze out of them ha ha. Not that I do anyway.

Other thing is the carbon fibre tub makes the door reveals really wide and I was fine getting in and out but my wife would struggle to get out lady like.

Edited by baileyconstruct on Saturday 29th December 21:16

[baileyconstruct]

mpbcs said:

I was planning on not taking the wife out in the car as I get awful earache on those occasions!

Don't as she will just nag and say its too fast, noisy and hard to get in and out.

Also when I was looking at those cars the dark grey was 5k more than the ice silver one.

Looking at the website both cars have had the upgrade done now so at least now you will be able to know where you are going

[baileyconstruct]

Chrism355 said:

The main issue with the MP4 is indeed no predecessor and that Mclaren had no PR department to promote the car, in their arrogance they thought they could do a better job, just look how well the spider has been promoted by the press, the car is indeed a great car but needs help finding its foothold in the market a fact the new PR company understand and are showing Mclaren how to do this.
The MP4 does not need the ccb's as the air brake gives a much better brake balance to the car

I just don't think they have got this right yet with the PR. also Sone obviously found their customer services was poor also.

Must say I agree, although the carbon brakes are not needed, they are a nice piece of kit sitting behind the wheels. It has a carbon tub so why not treat it to a nice set of carbon brakes

I read somewhere that they are changing the design of the front bumper???

[baileyconstruct]

red_duke said:

Good point. The Internet grapevine must be very damaging to manufacturers. Problems with the early cars became widely known and must have put potential purchasers off; particularly those teetering between a 12C and a 458.

Presumably the free power upgrade and fixed Iris electronics this year have brought a smile to owner's faces, but there's been no feedback to that effect on these forums. I wonder if these free fixes and upgrades were made available to second and third hand owners?

Edited by red_duke on Sunday 30th December 15:13

That's a good point a out no feedback on the upgrades. Anybody had this yet and can comment?

[baileyconstruct]

jgy6000 said:

Really? Not from what i have seen. Infact its the complete opposite, where did you hear this?

Does anybody have a reliable link/source on sale figures?

I must say I loved the 12c but was worried at the time on depreciation. I looked at my car which I have had for 3 months and they are still at the same pricing level, maybe slightly higher than what I paid.

I am no fool and realise I will lose money, but just felt the 458 , at the time would limit the loss.

I had a feeling the 12c would drop like a stone, and I still think they will go to 135-140 by Feb. they have no natural buffer to them accept the 911 Porsche Turbo.

[baileyconstruct]

jgy6000 said:

I doubt it very much, i worked there for the past 2 1/2 years and its not exactly a very big place so you hear a lot of things.

Where at their main headquarters? I would have to say I think they are not selling well due to people being put off by reliability and rushed to market.

I also think they always seem to fall second best to the 458 in journalist comparisons, and people go on what they read.

The car is bound to stabilise and once it dips into the 130k area a further market will open for it which should booster the sales.

[baileyconstruct]

Here is the link of Chris Harris review that upset Ferrari

http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spins

[baileyconstruct]

Maff said:

In terms of MP4 Spider sales, with a lot of phoning about, I could get a new factory ordered spider with a three month wait time. Not so for the 458 spider.

What was the wait time comparison for the 458? 12 months?

[baileyconstruct]

BruceC said:

Escaped my 12 c with a thrashing! Residuals are a disaster and ibdo not believe you have seen an end to it!

I now have a 458 spider in my garage and feel safer as McLaren are on a very steep learning curve and tend not to listen.

The 12 c is a better car than the 458 but I for one cannot afford the associated costs. The car is more expensive new than the 458 it does not have ceramics but needs them , it does not have a 7 year service package and residuals are a serious joke.

A very expensive experience and I sold it because I could see no bottom as said earlier there is nothing else in the range to prop it up

I take it the residual loss was upsetting then lol?

That's the problem I am noticing with them is that in less and a year, you lose near on 60k. That's 5k a month, 1.25k a week.

This doesn't include the running costs either.

I wonder if that's why Mclaren London are advertising their cars with 2 years inclusive service on PH? Obviously they are trying to mirror Ferrari in that aspect to try and attract sales.

Edited by baileyconstruct on Sunday 30th December 22:07

[baileyconstruct]

APOLO1 said:

There is no wait time for the 458 Sp. there are cars at dealerships. One thing for sure ,458 or a 12c, we are going to lose money

The purpose of this thread is not to merely say that both cars will lose money. I am no idiot and realise I will lose money on my 458 as do other owners.

The thread was to discuss the reason of the sudden write down of the mclaren don't get me wrong, it's a fab car and it was the fact I read an article in Evo mag about how they are dropping like a stone.

Maybe I should have hung fire for the new year and went with the 12c as I am sure I could pick one up for 135k.

[baileyconstruct]

TP321 said:

There are only 18 mp4s for sale on pistonheads - the cheapest is £149k. when new some only cost their owner £180k. Yes there has been a loss, but not exactly the end of the world, in view of the negative press the car got and the economic storm that 2012 has turned into. Going forward, coupe production has all but ceased due to the spyder (minimum price with some spec £220k), so who knows what will happen.....but my view is that they will start to look like a bargain, especially if there are some more power upgrades.

You see I see the depreciation different as the dark graphite grey one lists at just shy of 220k. It is now advertised at 149k but I bet you can get that car today for 144k. To me losing 76k within a year is astonishing.

The silver blue one at mclaren London lists at just shy of 210k (I believe the paint choice is silly money as an extra) and again will have lost 65k.

It doesn't matter what they are advertised at as this means nothing. If they are not selling then the are not worth the price being advertised at.

There is one on PH at 205k!!!! The seller needs to have a look at what other dealers are doing as he is going to have his car for a long time.

http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...

[baileyconstruct]

jandrews said:

I'm no Ferrari basher, have owned 3 and remain a paid up FOC member but I can truly say my Mar 2012 12C is the first car I plan to keep for the long term - and i have yet to have the upgrade to 2013 spec. Depreciation on any car like the 12C isn't going to be good and in the current climate i think the first year isn't a surprise. As Mclaren develop their approved used scheme I think things will stabilise and at 150 or so I think they offer phenomenal value and a rarity and exclusiveness factor very different to Ferrari.

I agree that now at the 150k mark they offer good value.

Out of interest I phoned a regular car dealer I deal with this morning and asked him if he would be interested in my car (test to see depreciation). I am quite chuffed that he bid me 6k below what I paid 3 months ago. This 6k is really only the dealer mark up, so in reality my car has stabilised. I will have to now say I'm not selling it as if I know him he is already trying to place it lol.

Obviously 6k over 3 months is still a big hit but this is a good acid test to show the stability of the ferrari if macca applied the same ideas as ferrari they would be a. English ferrari. There is no doubting the quality of the product and this thread is not about ferrari vs mclaren, just an discussion of what mclaren need to do to stop there products being falling stones.