Do you/Can you, really enjoy DRIVING your supercar anymore?
Discussion
With the increasing number of unmarked , camera-equipped road safety cars around , I don't think you can anymore .
Modern supercars are too long-geared , and in particular the gaps between the lower gears are spaced too far apart , for the speed limits in the UK , and the EU .
Combine this with supercars that produce colossal amounts of power , and you have very limited opportunities for changing gear , and to compound the problem , very little time in which to enjoy the build up to the crescendo just below the red-line .
This is before even beginning to talk about congested and pot-holed roads .
Or ,the gross width , and poor sight-lines of most supercars
And the fact that supercars stand out , makes them even more vulnerable to the afore-mentioned unmarked camera-equipped safety cars .
So I am genuinely intrigued by owners who say that they really enjoy DRIVING their supercars ---where , when and how are you getting these thrills ?
Modern supercars are too long-geared , and in particular the gaps between the lower gears are spaced too far apart , for the speed limits in the UK , and the EU .
Combine this with supercars that produce colossal amounts of power , and you have very limited opportunities for changing gear , and to compound the problem , very little time in which to enjoy the build up to the crescendo just below the red-line .
This is before even beginning to talk about congested and pot-holed roads .
Or ,the gross width , and poor sight-lines of most supercars
And the fact that supercars stand out , makes them even more vulnerable to the afore-mentioned unmarked camera-equipped safety cars .
So I am genuinely intrigued by owners who say that they really enjoy DRIVING their supercars ---where , when and how are you getting these thrills ?
Thank you for all your thoughts.
Focussing specifically on the ' enjoyment of DRIVING a supercar ' , it would seem to me that most of your responses would confirm my suspicion that this is something that is no longer readily achievable
The replies suggest that to maximise your chances of a decent drive while retaining your license and liberty , you have to go through an inordinate amount of planning and compromise (very early morning start 4.30am ; selected B roads ; driving the car at a less than ideal road and engine speed )
I find these cars totally boring when they are driven at 1/3 of their maximum engine speeds , in the first 2 of their 6 or 7 available gears .
With respect to getting thrills from :
1) Acceleration : you barely have time ( what , maybe 4 or 5 seconds ? ) to appreciate that push from 20 mph to 80 mph , before you are past the legal limit +
2) Continental driving : France and Spain and Italy are now ferocious in their attitude to speed.
Let's not mention Switzerland . Germany's famed roads are essentially a network of road works. I drove 9,000 miles on the continent last year , and with some very notable exceptions , the limitations in the UK were replicated there . (Admittedly , much , much less congestion in France, Spain ,Portugal , Baltics and Eastern Europe cf UK )
3) Track-day driving : Supercars are so fundamentally unsuited to track work ---- too heavy , too many driver-aids, too wide , poor sight-lines , too expensive on consumables like brakes and tyres , too expensive in terms of damaged body panels in case of an accident.
Surely , a Caterham or an Atom or a Brooke or an X-bow would give a purer track experience, more enjoyment and at less cost .
My starting this topic might seem like a 'wind-up ' exercise , but I started it because I genuinely think that an era is coming to an end , and that it might be sensible to acknowledge this .
I have long been an advocate of the virtues of a working alarm clock in the summer .
I enjoy the odd track-day in an open light-weight car.
Twenty years ago , I too enjoyed planning the route and time , preparing a serviced and inspected car with new but run-in tyres , getting in the middle of a 5 lane , single direction road on the Continent , and then maxing a V12 ----- its something that I will remember forever . (I've only fully max'ed a V12 once ).
With each passing year , driving becomes more restricted in one way or another, and the enjoyment of it declines in direct proportion .
I think that the basic engineering of modern supercars (xs power and torque , gearing chosen to keep emissions low , xs weight , width etc,etc) makes them very poor road cars in real world 2018 , and I wish that more of my fellow petrolheads would acknowledge this . (So that we can ask for a different type of Supercar from the manufacturers )
Supercars are often things of beauty , and often represent the pinnacle of engineering know-how , and maybe we should be more honest in acknowledging that we love them for these reasons , rather than for what is now the often touted , but far less achievable goal of ''driving enjoyment ''.
JB : the proofs went in 2 weeks ago , and cannot now be altered , so this is purely for my own interest , but how did you know the title to the final chapter ?
Focussing specifically on the ' enjoyment of DRIVING a supercar ' , it would seem to me that most of your responses would confirm my suspicion that this is something that is no longer readily achievable
The replies suggest that to maximise your chances of a decent drive while retaining your license and liberty , you have to go through an inordinate amount of planning and compromise (very early morning start 4.30am ; selected B roads ; driving the car at a less than ideal road and engine speed )
I find these cars totally boring when they are driven at 1/3 of their maximum engine speeds , in the first 2 of their 6 or 7 available gears .
With respect to getting thrills from :
1) Acceleration : you barely have time ( what , maybe 4 or 5 seconds ? ) to appreciate that push from 20 mph to 80 mph , before you are past the legal limit +
2) Continental driving : France and Spain and Italy are now ferocious in their attitude to speed.
Let's not mention Switzerland . Germany's famed roads are essentially a network of road works. I drove 9,000 miles on the continent last year , and with some very notable exceptions , the limitations in the UK were replicated there . (Admittedly , much , much less congestion in France, Spain ,Portugal , Baltics and Eastern Europe cf UK )
3) Track-day driving : Supercars are so fundamentally unsuited to track work ---- too heavy , too many driver-aids, too wide , poor sight-lines , too expensive on consumables like brakes and tyres , too expensive in terms of damaged body panels in case of an accident.
Surely , a Caterham or an Atom or a Brooke or an X-bow would give a purer track experience, more enjoyment and at less cost .
My starting this topic might seem like a 'wind-up ' exercise , but I started it because I genuinely think that an era is coming to an end , and that it might be sensible to acknowledge this .
I have long been an advocate of the virtues of a working alarm clock in the summer .
I enjoy the odd track-day in an open light-weight car.
Twenty years ago , I too enjoyed planning the route and time , preparing a serviced and inspected car with new but run-in tyres , getting in the middle of a 5 lane , single direction road on the Continent , and then maxing a V12 ----- its something that I will remember forever . (I've only fully max'ed a V12 once ).
With each passing year , driving becomes more restricted in one way or another, and the enjoyment of it declines in direct proportion .
I think that the basic engineering of modern supercars (xs power and torque , gearing chosen to keep emissions low , xs weight , width etc,etc) makes them very poor road cars in real world 2018 , and I wish that more of my fellow petrolheads would acknowledge this . (So that we can ask for a different type of Supercar from the manufacturers )
Supercars are often things of beauty , and often represent the pinnacle of engineering know-how , and maybe we should be more honest in acknowledging that we love them for these reasons , rather than for what is now the often touted , but far less achievable goal of ''driving enjoyment ''.
JB : the proofs went in 2 weeks ago , and cannot now be altered , so this is purely for my own interest , but how did you know the title to the final chapter ?
Hello again everyone , and thank you for all your responses.
The day and afternoon jobs have kept me off all fora for the last 24 hours , but its great to be back onto this one
I spend too much time on Pistonheads , because I genuinely believe that its just about the best multi-marque discussion area available , and I think that we can contribute towards the next evolution of the supercar , if only we could face up to some pretty unsavoury realities , and express ourselves coherently to the manufacturers with one voice .
I am an internal combustion man with a love for high revving natural aspirated engines , but like it or not , the truth is that we are going to have to accept forced induction (already here) , hybrid technology , full electrification and maybe even the Hydrogen fuel cell , in our lifetimes .
I was very specific in my opening question , and highlighted the word DRIVING in bold.
I entirely accept that there are many , many ways in which one can enjoy a supercar --- hand washing it oneself ( I've never let a detailer near any one of my cars , although I have absolutely no doubt that they would do an immensely better job than me ) , polishing it , checking the engine oil and coolant levels and the tyre pressures , just looking at it , writing about it on PH or other platforms, etc, etc.
I am probably more guilty than most , of doing too much of all of the above , mainly because I just enjoy doing all that is listed above , and what's the harm in that ?
But what is more troubling is that I am now finding that I am getting an increasing proportion of pleasure from my cars , from the activities above , rather than from driving them .
And that surely is a trend in the wrong direction .
Which then begs the question of why this trend is there , and what can be done to reverse it , or at least slow it down .
The trend is there because it is just a lot less enjoyable driving today than it was 20 years ago , and this is partly due to road and societal conditions , which we cannot realistically cannot do anything about , and partly due to the types of cars that are currently available , the off-spring of which we do , as consumers , have some influence over .
More than a few of you have stated that you enjoy your classics .
Well , I couldn't agree more . I drive a 140,000mile , 25 year old series 1 MX5 every day , and I can actually ENJOY DRIVING it. I can stir through the gears , get a little slip on demand , don't have to worry about numerous ECUs waiting to disintegrate and throw a wobbly , reach just below the red line in more gears than my numerical proficiency allows me to count to , and all without getting anywhere near the legal limit , which means that I can enjoy the driving , rather than spending far too much time looking in my rear view mirror for flashing lights , or looking into the far distant horizon only for yellow and red stripes . And there is no answer that I know of to unmarked cars .
Others have spoken about the joys of engine , induction and exhaust music , and again I am all there with you . Surely sound is such an integral part of the whole experience , and such a major contributor to the enjoyment .
Yet others have spoken about the pleasure of just owning a car (and yes , you don't have to have a supercar to enjoy any of this , any car will do equally well . I remember getting my first pay cheque , for which I worked 16 hours a day , 12 days a fortnight , which was £600/month .
And at that time , admittedly 33 years ago , the back pages of Autocar told me it would take me almost 10 years to buy a Countach if I didn't eat , drink or rent a roof . But I got a huge amount of fun from both owning and DRIVING my UNO 70S.). I too just love looking at some cars
So , this thread , if it is to carry a message to manufacturers , is equally valid in the supermini forum , as it is in the supercar forum , so anyone with anything constructive to say , whetehr you own a supercar or not , please contribute .
To move on to the next step then , what should we be telling the manufacturers we want ?
-Well a good torque to weight ratio , would be my first ask , and this preferably achieved through low mass
-Throw away all the unnecessary diver aids , they just detract ----maybe i'd just accept servo'ed brakes .
-high revving naturally aspirated petrol engines , and hang the emissions
-sensible gear ratios , designed for driving pleasure rather than fuel economy
-safe grip , but not over-rubbered like just about every 200 mph capable supercar has to have to safely reach this almost never arrived at top speed
-great engine , and exhaust sound ---- mandatory , and again hang the noise pollution----its going to be a very silent world when electric cars rule the planet.( ? just where is all this clean electricity going to come from ? And the Hydrogen fuel cell remains just as elusive as it was 10 years ago !!)
Have to go to the evening job now , what with all this rising petrol price , but i'd like to come back again please , to talk about some other topics that have been raised :
- latest vs genuine greatest
- Kings Rd vs A road
- cost vs value (yes , we are not all millionaires , and we do have to look at cost ---and anyway only a fool wouldn't )
- variety of cars being the spice of motoring life
- Lambo Rambo's carbon fetish , and how to get a bargain basement Zonda Cinque Roadster
Sleep tight everyone
i
The day and afternoon jobs have kept me off all fora for the last 24 hours , but its great to be back onto this one
I spend too much time on Pistonheads , because I genuinely believe that its just about the best multi-marque discussion area available , and I think that we can contribute towards the next evolution of the supercar , if only we could face up to some pretty unsavoury realities , and express ourselves coherently to the manufacturers with one voice .
I am an internal combustion man with a love for high revving natural aspirated engines , but like it or not , the truth is that we are going to have to accept forced induction (already here) , hybrid technology , full electrification and maybe even the Hydrogen fuel cell , in our lifetimes .
I was very specific in my opening question , and highlighted the word DRIVING in bold.
I entirely accept that there are many , many ways in which one can enjoy a supercar --- hand washing it oneself ( I've never let a detailer near any one of my cars , although I have absolutely no doubt that they would do an immensely better job than me ) , polishing it , checking the engine oil and coolant levels and the tyre pressures , just looking at it , writing about it on PH or other platforms, etc, etc.
I am probably more guilty than most , of doing too much of all of the above , mainly because I just enjoy doing all that is listed above , and what's the harm in that ?
But what is more troubling is that I am now finding that I am getting an increasing proportion of pleasure from my cars , from the activities above , rather than from driving them .
And that surely is a trend in the wrong direction .
Which then begs the question of why this trend is there , and what can be done to reverse it , or at least slow it down .
The trend is there because it is just a lot less enjoyable driving today than it was 20 years ago , and this is partly due to road and societal conditions , which we cannot realistically cannot do anything about , and partly due to the types of cars that are currently available , the off-spring of which we do , as consumers , have some influence over .
More than a few of you have stated that you enjoy your classics .
Well , I couldn't agree more . I drive a 140,000mile , 25 year old series 1 MX5 every day , and I can actually ENJOY DRIVING it. I can stir through the gears , get a little slip on demand , don't have to worry about numerous ECUs waiting to disintegrate and throw a wobbly , reach just below the red line in more gears than my numerical proficiency allows me to count to , and all without getting anywhere near the legal limit , which means that I can enjoy the driving , rather than spending far too much time looking in my rear view mirror for flashing lights , or looking into the far distant horizon only for yellow and red stripes . And there is no answer that I know of to unmarked cars .
Others have spoken about the joys of engine , induction and exhaust music , and again I am all there with you . Surely sound is such an integral part of the whole experience , and such a major contributor to the enjoyment .
Yet others have spoken about the pleasure of just owning a car (and yes , you don't have to have a supercar to enjoy any of this , any car will do equally well . I remember getting my first pay cheque , for which I worked 16 hours a day , 12 days a fortnight , which was £600/month .
And at that time , admittedly 33 years ago , the back pages of Autocar told me it would take me almost 10 years to buy a Countach if I didn't eat , drink or rent a roof . But I got a huge amount of fun from both owning and DRIVING my UNO 70S.). I too just love looking at some cars
So , this thread , if it is to carry a message to manufacturers , is equally valid in the supermini forum , as it is in the supercar forum , so anyone with anything constructive to say , whetehr you own a supercar or not , please contribute .
To move on to the next step then , what should we be telling the manufacturers we want ?
-Well a good torque to weight ratio , would be my first ask , and this preferably achieved through low mass
-Throw away all the unnecessary diver aids , they just detract ----maybe i'd just accept servo'ed brakes .
-high revving naturally aspirated petrol engines , and hang the emissions
-sensible gear ratios , designed for driving pleasure rather than fuel economy
-safe grip , but not over-rubbered like just about every 200 mph capable supercar has to have to safely reach this almost never arrived at top speed
-great engine , and exhaust sound ---- mandatory , and again hang the noise pollution----its going to be a very silent world when electric cars rule the planet.( ? just where is all this clean electricity going to come from ? And the Hydrogen fuel cell remains just as elusive as it was 10 years ago !!)
Have to go to the evening job now , what with all this rising petrol price , but i'd like to come back again please , to talk about some other topics that have been raised :
- latest vs genuine greatest
- Kings Rd vs A road
- cost vs value (yes , we are not all millionaires , and we do have to look at cost ---and anyway only a fool wouldn't )
- variety of cars being the spice of motoring life
- Lambo Rambo's carbon fetish , and how to get a bargain basement Zonda Cinque Roadster
Sleep tight everyone
i
Maybe I was not clear enough at the start of this thread , but by highlighting DRIVING , I was specifically talking about the enjoyment of driving supercars at the rev ranges and speeds (linear and lateral) that they truly come alive at .
I totally accept that they can be lovely at 0 mph for various reasons , and that it might thrill some to take their supercar down to Tesco ( although I do have to ask why ?) , but this is not what I was aiming at , in starting this thread . My apologies for not having made this completely clear , right at the very beginning .
Bispal - There is not a single word of your post that I do not entirely agree with . (Well , if I was really trying , I might try and push the merits of the 1.6 vs the 1.8 !!)
In particular your points about fast cars needing to be good to drive slowly , and vice-versa , and the importance of sight lines and width , are so pertinent to this thread.
Ditto static revving --the only thing worse must be revving of a cold engine -- that really makes me cringe even more.
I can totally believe your comment about the MX5 keeping up with the McLarens in real world driving .
That was my experience too ( but vs a M3 ) on a really early morning run on the Route Napoleon 4 years ago .
The Stelvio , which was OK in the MX5 , must be terrible in a Countach or Murcie --- the hairpins are just too tight for supercar turning circles and widths -- again that's real world realities !
I think that a fast bike ( I've never ridden a bike , as my wife says that I would definitely fall off) would really bring out the joy of the Stelvio , and I find it hard to believe those that say that they have really enjoyed DRIVING their supercars on that road (unless they have had the wherewithal to have the road closed just for them ) -- again the sightlines with regards to oncoming traffic is just too poor = danger .
Finally , I , yet again , entirely understand you going for the Exige .
It seems that I must have gone through pretty much the same thinking process as you , before buying my last car .
I was/am shallow enough to want something unusual and dramatic to look at , and also wanted something that was light , with minimal electronic driving aids to enhance driver interaction , and was open to the elements for the same reason .
I only rarely do track work , and then always use the circuit's own cars , rather than my own cars on those occasions -- so this was not a consideration .
The most important considerations for me was that it should have good low speed acceleration ( and top speed was really irrelevant ) , and be able to pull high lateral G .
I had never had a carbon monocoque car previously ( and RamboLambo's praises seemed to be with good foundation , esp for open cars ), nor one with real downforce , so putting all these things together , I got a KTM X-Bow R .
I call it my ''round-about car ''.
But I did take a 380 Exige Roadster for a test-drive beforehand ( as well as Nissan GTR , an Atom , a Gallardo , a 220 Elise cup, an AMG GT , an NSX and a 1990's Heffernan and Greenley Bentley Continental R and an Azure --- yes , a diverse selection with almost no common thread running through them , other than the fact that all these intrigued and attracted me for one reason or another , and so were genuine possibilities ) , and was seriously attracted to it .
I totally accept that they can be lovely at 0 mph for various reasons , and that it might thrill some to take their supercar down to Tesco ( although I do have to ask why ?) , but this is not what I was aiming at , in starting this thread . My apologies for not having made this completely clear , right at the very beginning .
Bispal - There is not a single word of your post that I do not entirely agree with . (Well , if I was really trying , I might try and push the merits of the 1.6 vs the 1.8 !!)
In particular your points about fast cars needing to be good to drive slowly , and vice-versa , and the importance of sight lines and width , are so pertinent to this thread.
Ditto static revving --the only thing worse must be revving of a cold engine -- that really makes me cringe even more.
I can totally believe your comment about the MX5 keeping up with the McLarens in real world driving .
That was my experience too ( but vs a M3 ) on a really early morning run on the Route Napoleon 4 years ago .
The Stelvio , which was OK in the MX5 , must be terrible in a Countach or Murcie --- the hairpins are just too tight for supercar turning circles and widths -- again that's real world realities !
I think that a fast bike ( I've never ridden a bike , as my wife says that I would definitely fall off) would really bring out the joy of the Stelvio , and I find it hard to believe those that say that they have really enjoyed DRIVING their supercars on that road (unless they have had the wherewithal to have the road closed just for them ) -- again the sightlines with regards to oncoming traffic is just too poor = danger .
Finally , I , yet again , entirely understand you going for the Exige .
It seems that I must have gone through pretty much the same thinking process as you , before buying my last car .
I was/am shallow enough to want something unusual and dramatic to look at , and also wanted something that was light , with minimal electronic driving aids to enhance driver interaction , and was open to the elements for the same reason .
I only rarely do track work , and then always use the circuit's own cars , rather than my own cars on those occasions -- so this was not a consideration .
The most important considerations for me was that it should have good low speed acceleration ( and top speed was really irrelevant ) , and be able to pull high lateral G .
I had never had a carbon monocoque car previously ( and RamboLambo's praises seemed to be with good foundation , esp for open cars ), nor one with real downforce , so putting all these things together , I got a KTM X-Bow R .
I call it my ''round-about car ''.
But I did take a 380 Exige Roadster for a test-drive beforehand ( as well as Nissan GTR , an Atom , a Gallardo , a 220 Elise cup, an AMG GT , an NSX and a 1990's Heffernan and Greenley Bentley Continental R and an Azure --- yes , a diverse selection with almost no common thread running through them , other than the fact that all these intrigued and attracted me for one reason or another , and so were genuine possibilities ) , and was seriously attracted to it .
So LotusJas , please help me understand your logic , because I am failing to do so .
You anticipate enjoying DRIVING a 720S ( which I presume you will use largely on road , as it is not a track dedicated car like some other supercar variants , which you would otherwise have chosen ) , but not because of its on-road performance capabilities .
So its not the performance of the 720S that attracted you to it .
If we are talking about the DRIVING experience (which we are by definition of the thread title ) , what else is there to a supercar, than a supercar's performance ?
Surely it's not the luxury seats or the stereo system that made you want a 720S.
So why bother ?
You anticipate enjoying DRIVING a 720S ( which I presume you will use largely on road , as it is not a track dedicated car like some other supercar variants , which you would otherwise have chosen ) , but not because of its on-road performance capabilities .
So its not the performance of the 720S that attracted you to it .
If we are talking about the DRIVING experience (which we are by definition of the thread title ) , what else is there to a supercar, than a supercar's performance ?
Surely it's not the luxury seats or the stereo system that made you want a 720S.
So why bother ?
Hello everyone, and thank you all for responding.
When I started this thread , it was to get other people,s opinions , as to whether being limited by legislation , to driving a supercar at a fraction of its potential was a source of frustration , and whether this level of frustration was sufficient to make one question the validity / worth of supercar ownership .
I would not have posed this question 20 years ago , but with each passing year this question seems to be more relevant .
I fully accept that there are many different ways of appreciating having a supercar , or for that matter , any car , but I am asking a very specific question here : Does being limited to driving a car to a fraction of its potential , rob you of enough of the joy of driving to make you question its DRIVING worth ——- this applies as much to a Veyron as it does to a Yaris , except that the limits kick in much earlier in the Veyron , so the question becomes relevant earlier on in the case of the Bugatti cf the Toyota .
Andy 74 ....... humbling indeed , and very true.
Wombat .... we seem to be living in parallel , but inverse multiverses.
I have just driven down through Holland , Germany , and Austria to Bologna /Sant Agata to visit the two L museums for material , and then caught the L Accademia at the Misano Raceway . All this in a NOT supercar .... but in the last 6 cylinder 981 Boxster to be sold in the UK.... so a far cry from a 458 , and my experience has reinforced the validity of my question .
Holland was a spaghetti tangle of nose to tail cars .
Germany , essentially a network of roadworks , and any de restricted section was very short and traffic laden.
Austria had plenty of traffic police
The best bits were the A roads in Italy , that was fun , but I would not have wanted a wider or more powerful car , and even so I could only use less than half the available gears.
And all roundabouts , anywhere , in anything , are fun .
( Interestingly , a fellow guest with a TdF 458 , was of exactly the same opinion ....... but then we are both old , and maybe already living in the wrong era . )
Wombat , sacrilege , no valet parker comes near any of my cars , and no valet detailers either.
When I started this thread , it was to get other people,s opinions , as to whether being limited by legislation , to driving a supercar at a fraction of its potential was a source of frustration , and whether this level of frustration was sufficient to make one question the validity / worth of supercar ownership .
I would not have posed this question 20 years ago , but with each passing year this question seems to be more relevant .
I fully accept that there are many different ways of appreciating having a supercar , or for that matter , any car , but I am asking a very specific question here : Does being limited to driving a car to a fraction of its potential , rob you of enough of the joy of driving to make you question its DRIVING worth ——- this applies as much to a Veyron as it does to a Yaris , except that the limits kick in much earlier in the Veyron , so the question becomes relevant earlier on in the case of the Bugatti cf the Toyota .
Andy 74 ....... humbling indeed , and very true.
Wombat .... we seem to be living in parallel , but inverse multiverses.
I have just driven down through Holland , Germany , and Austria to Bologna /Sant Agata to visit the two L museums for material , and then caught the L Accademia at the Misano Raceway . All this in a NOT supercar .... but in the last 6 cylinder 981 Boxster to be sold in the UK.... so a far cry from a 458 , and my experience has reinforced the validity of my question .
Holland was a spaghetti tangle of nose to tail cars .
Germany , essentially a network of roadworks , and any de restricted section was very short and traffic laden.
Austria had plenty of traffic police
The best bits were the A roads in Italy , that was fun , but I would not have wanted a wider or more powerful car , and even so I could only use less than half the available gears.
And all roundabouts , anywhere , in anything , are fun .
( Interestingly , a fellow guest with a TdF 458 , was of exactly the same opinion ....... but then we are both old , and maybe already living in the wrong era . )
Wombat , sacrilege , no valet parker comes near any of my cars , and no valet detailers either.
Willy Wombat..... you,ve hit the nail on the head , and my wife would totally agree with you , when you say that I,m too precious with my cars... the Boxster S is sitting under a covered tent while a 458 and gt3 are slumming it in the general car park enjoying the sun !!
Genuinely glad to hear that you are having a good time , and that the F is behaving itself .
Some lovely roads in your area.
If you can do a really early morning run back to Blighty on the Route Napolean , please grab the opportunity ........ it is in the top 5 runs that I will remember forever........you will adore it , I promise.
Absolutely agree (again) with many other commentators who say that there are so many ways in which to enjoy any car ...... I was just focusing on one specific aspect
With regards to mileage and depreciation , it isn’t a feature , if you buy to keep for the very long term ( admittedly with the caveat that you never know what fate throws at you tomorrow ). Interestingly, in 2006 , when I was looking for a 355 , no car seemed to have over 30,000 miles , and when I was selling in 2014 , the mileage’s seemed no higher , and now in 2018, again the odometers seem to have remained static . ( Mine left with 54,000 on the clock .....sadly missed except for the overlight , although very precise , steering )
Genuinely glad to hear that you are having a good time , and that the F is behaving itself .
Some lovely roads in your area.
If you can do a really early morning run back to Blighty on the Route Napolean , please grab the opportunity ........ it is in the top 5 runs that I will remember forever........you will adore it , I promise.
Absolutely agree (again) with many other commentators who say that there are so many ways in which to enjoy any car ...... I was just focusing on one specific aspect
With regards to mileage and depreciation , it isn’t a feature , if you buy to keep for the very long term ( admittedly with the caveat that you never know what fate throws at you tomorrow ). Interestingly, in 2006 , when I was looking for a 355 , no car seemed to have over 30,000 miles , and when I was selling in 2014 , the mileage’s seemed no higher , and now in 2018, again the odometers seem to have remained static . ( Mine left with 54,000 on the clock .....sadly missed except for the overlight , although very precise , steering )
Bispal , I couldn't express my own sentiments more eloquently than you have done above .
That's why I adore my mk 1 MX5
And its not just the SE UK either .
I've just returned from my 2nd European trip .
The first was to Bologna to the Lambo family museum , and then south to Umbria to Ferruccio's old vineyard , where I was luck enough to meet his old book-keeper. This trip was over 3 1/2 weeks , and 5000 km , and was mainly to collect material for a Countach book.
The second trip , again was for 3 1/2 weeks , and involved over 7000 km , driving through Germany , then Austria , Hungary , Slovenia and Italy
. The reason for this trip was to gather material for a KTM X-BOW book : I spent time at the KTM factory in Graz, at the KISKA design studio outside Salzburg , at the Pannioring circuit in Hungary for the X-BOW Battle , and then most importantly , and most interestingly at Dallara , where I got to meet the legendary Giampaolo Dallara , who is now 81 years old and who still does a 12 hour day , 6 days a week. I also got taken out in the new Dallara Stradale ---wow !
Had an epic drive for 1 1/2 hours on the Grossglockner , but by 6.35 am it was time to go back to the hotel because of the traffic
You will catch the most wonderful drive by chance from time to time , but spirited European driving , using a supercar to 40% of its ability for 40% of the time is now really a myth
You could do it 20 years ago , but not today .
And I don't buy the idea of DRIVING a supercar to go to Tesco
You do have much more fun DRIVING in a MX5 for 95% of the time , simply because you have to push the car harder to get anywhere near any given limit ---beit grip , cornering, top speed ,acceleration or braking.
And because you are pushing more , you as a driver are more involved.....and surely that's where the fun of DRIVING comes in
The sad truth is that I've almost stopped DRIVING my supercars ---I get more joy just looking at them !!
Hidden , unmarked cameras have really taken the fun out of driving ------------being alert , even hyper-alert , is now not good enough
That's why I adore my mk 1 MX5
And its not just the SE UK either .
I've just returned from my 2nd European trip .
The first was to Bologna to the Lambo family museum , and then south to Umbria to Ferruccio's old vineyard , where I was luck enough to meet his old book-keeper. This trip was over 3 1/2 weeks , and 5000 km , and was mainly to collect material for a Countach book.
The second trip , again was for 3 1/2 weeks , and involved over 7000 km , driving through Germany , then Austria , Hungary , Slovenia and Italy
. The reason for this trip was to gather material for a KTM X-BOW book : I spent time at the KTM factory in Graz, at the KISKA design studio outside Salzburg , at the Pannioring circuit in Hungary for the X-BOW Battle , and then most importantly , and most interestingly at Dallara , where I got to meet the legendary Giampaolo Dallara , who is now 81 years old and who still does a 12 hour day , 6 days a week. I also got taken out in the new Dallara Stradale ---wow !
Had an epic drive for 1 1/2 hours on the Grossglockner , but by 6.35 am it was time to go back to the hotel because of the traffic
You will catch the most wonderful drive by chance from time to time , but spirited European driving , using a supercar to 40% of its ability for 40% of the time is now really a myth
You could do it 20 years ago , but not today .
And I don't buy the idea of DRIVING a supercar to go to Tesco
You do have much more fun DRIVING in a MX5 for 95% of the time , simply because you have to push the car harder to get anywhere near any given limit ---beit grip , cornering, top speed ,acceleration or braking.
And because you are pushing more , you as a driver are more involved.....and surely that's where the fun of DRIVING comes in
The sad truth is that I've almost stopped DRIVING my supercars ---I get more joy just looking at them !!
Hidden , unmarked cameras have really taken the fun out of driving ------------being alert , even hyper-alert , is now not good enough
OP here , putting ( or more accurately NOT putting ) his money where his mouth is .
Spent the last 18 months thinking about what to substitute / run alongside my 147,000 mile , 27 year old MX5 Series 1 .
It had to have decent REAL WORLD performance ( with power to weight and torque to weight being useful measures) , look good , be reliable , and be narrow ( really important in my opinion )
But most of all it had to be engaging
My short-list was :
Another MX5 series 1
Elise
Exige
4C
2nd hand 540C / 570S
The McLarens were real considerations as they are such good value , great performers , have those doors and a carbon tub .
But rightly or wrongly , reports about their reliability were a worry
I also took onboard Thorney Motorsports MD's comment that 7 of the 9 key McLaren engineers that designed the 12C were ex-Lotus
A 2010 Chrome Orange Elise S3 with the 2ZZ-GE engine turned up at Bella nd Colvill exactly 2 months ago today .
I went down the next afternoon , and Jamie Matthews showed me around both this N/A car as wel las a S/C car
The S/C car was undoubtedly faster , but I felt that it gave you less time to enjoy revving the car through the gears before hitting the 60 or 70 mph limit .
The N/A car has less power and torque ( 189 bhp / 133 lb-ft ) AND compounds this by only achieving this at quite high rpms for a road car ( 7800 and 6800 respectively )
This is a marmite choice , as many people don't like this type of high rev power delivery .
In fact there are relatively few 2ZZ engined S3 Elises , as emissions regulations meant that Lotus had to change to the 2ZR cars soon after the introduction of the S3 model -- the 2ZR produced higher torque lower down the rev range , but its rev limit was significantly lower . You don't have to work it so hard , but equally you cannot work it as hard .
I felt that the 2ZZ N/A car would force me to work harder to get it moving and therefore be the more engaging -- and hence it was my choice .
The car is factory standard , but I have asked for 1 modification - Jim Valentine has put on a 6 inch 2bular backbox , and I have asked him to make it loud , loud , loud
I am picking it up tomorrow , and I don't know if my theoretical logic will stand up to the scrutiny of real world driving .
I hope that I will not be disappointed .
I hope to be able to actually use this Elise
Todays supercars , in my opinion , are too wide , need too high a speed before they engage , are too electronic , are too gadget-laden , and are too digital in their delivery .
They are also simply not as useable ( and this applies to any fastish car , not just supercars ) on today's camera-infested and traffic-clogged roads - something that was not such a restricting factor 20 years ago .
Will a relatively inexpensive , narrow , naturally aspirated manual car , driven by a low powered and low torqued engine which needs high rpm , in a light-weight body , with Toyota reliability fulfill the above mentioned criteria ?
Wish me luck
Spent the last 18 months thinking about what to substitute / run alongside my 147,000 mile , 27 year old MX5 Series 1 .
It had to have decent REAL WORLD performance ( with power to weight and torque to weight being useful measures) , look good , be reliable , and be narrow ( really important in my opinion )
But most of all it had to be engaging
My short-list was :
Another MX5 series 1
Elise
Exige
4C
2nd hand 540C / 570S
The McLarens were real considerations as they are such good value , great performers , have those doors and a carbon tub .
But rightly or wrongly , reports about their reliability were a worry
I also took onboard Thorney Motorsports MD's comment that 7 of the 9 key McLaren engineers that designed the 12C were ex-Lotus
A 2010 Chrome Orange Elise S3 with the 2ZZ-GE engine turned up at Bella nd Colvill exactly 2 months ago today .
I went down the next afternoon , and Jamie Matthews showed me around both this N/A car as wel las a S/C car
The S/C car was undoubtedly faster , but I felt that it gave you less time to enjoy revving the car through the gears before hitting the 60 or 70 mph limit .
The N/A car has less power and torque ( 189 bhp / 133 lb-ft ) AND compounds this by only achieving this at quite high rpms for a road car ( 7800 and 6800 respectively )
This is a marmite choice , as many people don't like this type of high rev power delivery .
In fact there are relatively few 2ZZ engined S3 Elises , as emissions regulations meant that Lotus had to change to the 2ZR cars soon after the introduction of the S3 model -- the 2ZR produced higher torque lower down the rev range , but its rev limit was significantly lower . You don't have to work it so hard , but equally you cannot work it as hard .
I felt that the 2ZZ N/A car would force me to work harder to get it moving and therefore be the more engaging -- and hence it was my choice .
The car is factory standard , but I have asked for 1 modification - Jim Valentine has put on a 6 inch 2bular backbox , and I have asked him to make it loud , loud , loud
I am picking it up tomorrow , and I don't know if my theoretical logic will stand up to the scrutiny of real world driving .
I hope that I will not be disappointed .
I hope to be able to actually use this Elise
Todays supercars , in my opinion , are too wide , need too high a speed before they engage , are too electronic , are too gadget-laden , and are too digital in their delivery .
They are also simply not as useable ( and this applies to any fastish car , not just supercars ) on today's camera-infested and traffic-clogged roads - something that was not such a restricting factor 20 years ago .
Will a relatively inexpensive , narrow , naturally aspirated manual car , driven by a low powered and low torqued engine which needs high rpm , in a light-weight body , with Toyota reliability fulfill the above mentioned criteria ?
Wish me luck
Edited by carspath on Tuesday 3rd March 23:26
Edited by carspath on Tuesday 3rd March 23:31
Edited by carspath on Tuesday 3rd March 23:32
Jakesmith :
You know , in more than one way , it can be much more fun driving an old , but well maintained ( sadly rust kills them ) Series 1 MX5 than some other higher powered sportscars and some supercars .
Let's just say I know .
Strange but true .
Slow cars driven fast can be more fun ( ie more engaging ) than fast cars driven slowly .
Old , analogue cars with minimal scope for electronic intervention demand more direct intervention .
And you get more thrills at a lower speed , so you have a better chance of keeping your license .
You would get the same enhanced involvement if you used narrower tyres , or used tyres with less grip .
One of the most fun drives that I ever had was on the Grossglockner in June 2018 .
I stayed on the Pass , as they only open the road to the public at 6AM , but if you are already there , its all yours until that time .
Got up at 4.30 , and was devastated to find that it had rained overnight , and that the roads were wet/damp .
But it was the most fun drive ever because the grip levels were much lower , and so you had to tip-toe around , and try and stay just on the correct side of the adhesion fence .
So , much slower speeds , but so much more engagement , and therefore so much more fun .
Fun is not correlated to speed or money , thank God .
Some cars were just born with the right DNA . (Others would argue that the MX5 just snitched its genes from that undeniable paragon of handling , the original Elan )
I would entirely agree with you that the Series 1's major shortcoming is its crashworthiness .
rat rod , FezSpider and hornbaek -- I totally agree
You know , in more than one way , it can be much more fun driving an old , but well maintained ( sadly rust kills them ) Series 1 MX5 than some other higher powered sportscars and some supercars .
Let's just say I know .
Strange but true .
Slow cars driven fast can be more fun ( ie more engaging ) than fast cars driven slowly .
Old , analogue cars with minimal scope for electronic intervention demand more direct intervention .
And you get more thrills at a lower speed , so you have a better chance of keeping your license .
You would get the same enhanced involvement if you used narrower tyres , or used tyres with less grip .
One of the most fun drives that I ever had was on the Grossglockner in June 2018 .
I stayed on the Pass , as they only open the road to the public at 6AM , but if you are already there , its all yours until that time .
Got up at 4.30 , and was devastated to find that it had rained overnight , and that the roads were wet/damp .
But it was the most fun drive ever because the grip levels were much lower , and so you had to tip-toe around , and try and stay just on the correct side of the adhesion fence .
So , much slower speeds , but so much more engagement , and therefore so much more fun .
Fun is not correlated to speed or money , thank God .
Some cars were just born with the right DNA . (Others would argue that the MX5 just snitched its genes from that undeniable paragon of handling , the original Elan )
I would entirely agree with you that the Series 1's major shortcoming is its crashworthiness .
rat rod , FezSpider and hornbaek -- I totally agree
Edited by carspath on Wednesday 4th March 22:56
Edited by carspath on Wednesday 4th March 23:00
Edited by carspath on Wednesday 4th March 23:15
Supercars from the 70's and 80's ( and I suspect that you could go back to the immediate post-WW1 era of Bugatti and Bentley -- but I have no experience of these cars ) give you unadulterated thrills .
The advent of automotive nanny electronics immediately created a filter between the driver and the tarmac .
Manufacturers , especially the small volume , bespoke car makers , have to ( together with govt safety legislation ) make what the market wants .
And the punters want toys , mostly totally unnecessary toys .
Always amazes me that people put expensive stereo systems into sportscars and supercars .
But WHY ?
What' wrong with the noise of timing chains and exhaust pulsations ?
Can you really hear your music when the car is moving ?
And would you really choose to sit in a stationary car just to listen to music ?
Just one , admittedly blatant , example .
You get so much honest and visceral stimulation in an electronics-free 80's supercar , compared to its comparable 2020 counterpart . Sure its much slower , and pulls less G's in the corners , but big , wide , heavy supercars were never designed for track use anyway .
By definition , supercars are road cars , not track or race cars . Yes , the manufacturers might / will try and convince you that they have made a slightly lighter , slightly more powerful , and very much more expensive variant , which is a '' track special '' , but that is just an end-of-the line marketing ploy to extract every last penny from an outgoing model .
It really shouldn't take anyone in , but sadly it never fails to do so , and usually at great and unnecessary expense !!
The advent of automotive nanny electronics immediately created a filter between the driver and the tarmac .
Manufacturers , especially the small volume , bespoke car makers , have to ( together with govt safety legislation ) make what the market wants .
And the punters want toys , mostly totally unnecessary toys .
Always amazes me that people put expensive stereo systems into sportscars and supercars .
But WHY ?
What' wrong with the noise of timing chains and exhaust pulsations ?
Can you really hear your music when the car is moving ?
And would you really choose to sit in a stationary car just to listen to music ?
Just one , admittedly blatant , example .
You get so much honest and visceral stimulation in an electronics-free 80's supercar , compared to its comparable 2020 counterpart . Sure its much slower , and pulls less G's in the corners , but big , wide , heavy supercars were never designed for track use anyway .
By definition , supercars are road cars , not track or race cars . Yes , the manufacturers might / will try and convince you that they have made a slightly lighter , slightly more powerful , and very much more expensive variant , which is a '' track special '' , but that is just an end-of-the line marketing ploy to extract every last penny from an outgoing model .
It really shouldn't take anyone in , but sadly it never fails to do so , and usually at great and unnecessary expense !!
What is not nuanced is when manufacturers ( and 2nd hand traders who continue with the hype ) make relatively small changes ( eg Murcie SV cf base Murcie ) to a model , and then charge 2-3 times the base price .
What is equally not nuanced is when a comparatively cheap material is dressed up as being special ( the example being given here is alcantara vs plain leather ) , and a huge premium is then charged to the poor , unsuspecting , ignorant and hapless punter who is led to believe that he ( or she ) has just had entry into an exclusive gentlemans's club .
What is equally not nuanced is when a comparatively cheap material is dressed up as being special ( the example being given here is alcantara vs plain leather ) , and a huge premium is then charged to the poor , unsuspecting , ignorant and hapless punter who is led to believe that he ( or she ) has just had entry into an exclusive gentlemans's club .
I agree with many of the points that you make .
I suppose that it just grates when I feel that I am being taken for a ride ( '' You don’t as a consumer pay according to the cost of construction '' ) by the manufacturers , as I only genuinely feel comfortable paying for a material benefit , and not for a perceived benefit .
But that is clearly just me and my own problem , as the manufacturers have no problem shifting Murcie SVs or Alcantara trim options .
I suppose that it just grates when I feel that I am being taken for a ride ( '' You don’t as a consumer pay according to the cost of construction '' ) by the manufacturers , as I only genuinely feel comfortable paying for a material benefit , and not for a perceived benefit .
But that is clearly just me and my own problem , as the manufacturers have no problem shifting Murcie SVs or Alcantara trim options .
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