Engine rebuild

[4321go]

The following is a repost of my post on the Gallardo/Huracan sub-forum. But what applies to a V10 Lambo, applies just as well to any multi-cylinder “exotic”. So I’ll throw the question out to a wider audience here too, if I may?

I’m sure that many of you are aware that I use my 2005 Gallardo as daily transport. Since I purchased it in the early summer of 2013 I’ve taken it from 42,000 miles to 105,000 miles and growing!

And now I feel that it’s probably due an engine rebuild. It’s still as strong as anything; in the words of the (VERY experienced) main dealer technician who test drove it after its last service, it “pulls like a fking train!” But ever increasingly, it LOOKS like it’s pulling like a “fking train”. A diesel one! Oil consumption has reached frankly comical levels.

So who shall I have rebuild the engine? And who should I avoid? And in both cases, “Why?”

Please don’t recommend a business just because they’re your mates! This is too expensive an undertaking for me to choose the wrong people. But if you’ve genuine reason and experience on which to offer me advice, then please do!

PistonHeads posting rules say that you can praise a business to the rafters, but you can’t slag them off on here. Please, if you have genuine reason to suggest that I AVOID a particular business, PM me direct. Just click on my user name, and when my profile pops up, click on “email me”. Anything you say will be STRICTLY between you and me.

Thanking you all in advance.......

[4321go]

Thank you all so much for the replies so far! Thank you for taking the time to write. I’ve also had a couple of PMs so far. I’m at work and busy, so I’ll reply to them later this afternoon.

The two names immediately above (other thread!) are the ones I was most aware of and I’ll be talking to them very soon. REPerformance I’d never heard of, but Swindon is closer to me in Hampshire, so I’ll definitely talk to them too.

Please keep the recommendations and PMs coming.

TIA

Simon

[4321go]

Once again, my thanks to those who took the time to reply, either on PH or by PM, to both this post and the almost identical one that I started on the Gallardo sub-forum. As things are moving forward, and as developments might be of interest to ALL supercar owners, I’ve decided to call time on the other thread, and keep you all updated with THIS one.....

I’ve probably been downplaying the oil consumption of my (now) 106,000 mile, 5.0 litre Gallardo engine. It’s probably about 5 litres per 1000 miles and about a litre per 100 miles if I’m “pushing on”! It still feels as strong as an ox, and it’s as fast as fk, but I’ve been worried for a while that a big failure can’t be far off. That’s taken a lot of the fun out of thrashing it.

I couldn’t really ignore all of the recommendations for Ricky, could I? Particularly as Swindon is 35 miles away across fast cross country A-roads. So I called him two or three weeks ago and then popped straight over for a chat.

What a lovely bloke. And what obvious, deep and detailed knowledge of these engines. And whilst he may be a bit of an expert on the Audi/Lambo V10s, you can’t help but notice the modern Ferraris and McLarens that he has also been entrusted with. Not many outfits can have a block from the (Lambo only) 5 litre engine in the office/tea room/crèche! And the two 5.2 litre engines in the well appointed engine build room were further evidence that I was in the right place. One is being rebuilt as a straight rebuild. The other has been lined and bored and will be the heart of a 1500 bhp, twin-turbo conversion. There’s a completed example of the latter in the back of the powder blue R8 out in the workshop.

We discussed MY car, and although we both agree that it’ll probably result in an engine rebuild, Ricky was insistent that he wouldn’t contemplate suggesting that until he’d conducted what he termed “due diligence” on it. So it was booked into his workshop at the earliest available instance for a “health check” on the motor. Compression testing, borescoping of the bores and down the inlet tracts; a thorough assessment of just how worn the reciprocating parts might be without actually removing the lump and stripping it.

There is a vanishingly small possibility that my excessive oil consumption might just be due to blocked crankcase breathers and the resulting pumping of the oil past the rings. Yeah, right! We both know that that’s a pipe dream. Post the due diligence inspection, I’m pretty certain that Ricky will have to find a Gallardo-shaped space in his workshop to accommodate my car for the duration of a rebuild. What that rebuild might actually entail will only become clear once the engine has been removed and stripped. It’s my intention to continue to run the car as daily, year-round transport, so the TT conversion is out. Besides, I couldn’t afford it anyway!!

Meanwhile, for the first time in over twenty years I’ve bought a “normal” car, to see me good for the duration of the rebuild. Briefly this morning, I had a three-car household. Briefly, because 20 minutes after getting home in my “new” focus, I left again to deliver the patient to RE Performance. And a focus? Don’t laugh. I like these. They’re great, fun cars. Cheap as chips to buy, run and maintain. And what was quite gobsmacking styling at the time, now looks increasingly clean and simple when compared to some of the fussiness out there (Civic Type R, anybody?)

Edited by 4321go on Monday 3rd December 18:41

[4321go]

jakesmith said:

What engine in the focus, any decent options, manual?

1.8, manual in Zetec trim. 72k with good, tight suspension. Full stamped up until 4 years ago and then.......... nothing! Four years and 20k since the cambelt was done, so I’ll throw plugs and fluids at it ASAP. And once the mismatched, big-brand and Cheng-slime tyres wear, I’ll put half-decent rubber on it. I MIGHT keep it, post rebuild, as a tip run wagon would be useful.......

[4321go]

Yup. I’ve already discussed this thread with Ricky and if it happens, then there’ll be photos and updates as it progresses.

[4321go]

I can assure you that I too am most definitely mortal. I’m trying very hard not to think about the cost!!

Edited by 4321go on Monday 3rd December 21:23

[4321go]

Errrrrr? Nope, I’m pretty sure that I interpreted Mr. Smith’s line of enquiry correctly as gentle banter and a lampooning of just such attitudes. This is, after all, a thread about an intergalactic Lambo!

But let’s not get sidetracked. Questions and advice welcome in equal measure......

[4321go]

Sadly, the bores are plated. Bore wear means one of two things: a new block, in which case the pistons, if undamaged, can be re-ringed and reused: or re-lining the original block, which is cheaper but then requires new pistons. We’ll weigh up the options if and when it comes to it.

I won’t tease you about the prices; you’ll know them as and when I do and I’ll lay out the thoughts about my decisions......

[4321go]

Ricky performed his due diligence on the engine last week and sent me the following email on Friday, with a couple of accompanying videos........



Morning Simon,

How are you?

I hope this weather isn’t making the day job too uncomfortable?

How is the new steed?

I have gone over the Lamborghini as discussed and have found the following.

There is a slight oil leak from the oil pump assembly underneath, but this is only slight (maybe a few drips if left parked up for a few days).

There is also residue on the outside of the AC compressor, it appears to be the internal oil.

On start-up (hot or cold) the vehicle emits blue smoke as we discussed.

I started by removing the intake system and throttle bodies and checking inside the inlet manifold for excessive oil, its relatively clean on both banks.

Certainly not enough to be concerned about regardless of your complaint. This also proves the engine breather system is not overwhelmed or the cause of the issue as all the hoses are free from blockage.

I then removed all the spark plugs and used a camera down the bores, I have taken some videos for you which I will send over on the phone.

A number of bores had significant amounts of oil in (been standing around 2 hours) as well as debris. A number of bore also show evidence of vertical score marks along the major and minor thrust faces of the cylinder walls.

A cold compression test with the throttle bodies removed, injectors disconnected, and a battery charger fitted presented the following:

1. 165 psi 6. 140 psi
2. 170 psi 7. 145 psi
3. 150 psi 8. 145 psi
4. 150 psi 9. 130 psi
5. 145 psi 10. 150 psi

We have a 40 psi (23%) variance across the best to worst cylinders, anything over 5 would be a concern.

At this point, and considering the video evidence, a cylinder leak down test won’t help us much more. Whether the loss of compression is piston ring or valve related the engine would need to come out for remedial work.

I will get on with getting numbers together for you, so we have a ball park area for costs.

On another note, not one person can believe the mileage!

I have seen cars with 10% of the mileage in far worse condition!

Have a lovely Friday.

Kindest regards Ricky

Ricky Elder | REPerformance

[4321go]

El Guapo said:

I'm amazed that people consider 105k to be "galactic" mileage on a 13-14 year-old car. Sure, its higher than most Gallardos of similar age, but it should be nicely bedded in now. The V10 is not known for being fragile.
The engine damage described is possibly a result of being thrashed from cold (not necessarily by the OP).
Regardless, good luck with the rebuild, and I hope you keep driving it regularly.

Actually, you’re wrong on both counts! I know the first owner(s). New, it was bought jointly by two long-standing members of the HPC (some readers may be familiar with the club?). At the time one of them was also running a Carrera GT, among other cars. It was driven frequently and hard, on both road and track by experienced supercar owners with a high degree of mechanical sympathy and serviced on the button. At a little over 4 years old, it was moved on. It then went through two subsequent owners, who appeared to cover comparatively few miles. I purchased it at 42k miles and have covered a further 64k miles in a little over 5 years. I never use it for short trips and never give it the beans until it’s good and warm. Over the last 21 years, only one of my daily-drivers has not been a mid-engined sports car. The Gallardo is actually the most “mass produced” car that I’ve owned since I was a kid!

As for fragility, as installed in the Gallardo the engine is very well known for bore wear! As they age, the catalytic converters start to disintegrate and particles big and small are drawn back into the engine, scoring the bores. Plenty of these engines have failed catastrophically (is that a pun?) and at a fraction of the mileage on mine, when large pieces of the cats have been pulled back in. In my case, I’ve probably been lucky! I didn’t de-cat it until it had covered over 90k miles. Knocking the cats on my garage workbench will release a small shower of particles the size of grains of sand. This has almost certainly caused the bore scoring. Much longer in place and the aging cats would probably have caused a seizure! The small number of specialists who know these cars well will tell you to de-cat them ASAP. I mentioned to Ricky that it’d already been de-catted and his reply was, “Good! The cats will always destroy these engines eventually.” He was the third specialist to confirm this!

I think that Ricky’s closing comment sums it up! It may be a high mileage car, but it’s always been properly looked after. Hence his opinion that he’s seen cars in much worse condition with a fraction of the mileage under their wheels. But these engines wear! It’s just that most owners will never use them enough to notice......

Edited by 4321go on Tuesday 11th December 18:08

Edited by 4321go on Tuesday 11th December 19:08

[4321go]

Never you mind said:

Cool thread and good on you OP for clocking up 105K miles on your car. Are you on first name terms with your local petrol station?

....... but no! Almost exclusively Tesco’s pay-at-pump! And rarely Super, either

[4321go]

selym said:

4321go said:

....... but no! Almost exclusively Tesco’s pay-at-pump! And rarely Super, either

Hero! Sticking it to the man (Tesco's!)

I suspect that the time taken to restore the car to me will coincide with a noticeable loss of profits for my local Tesco!

[4321go]

Since I bought the car, over five years ago, all of my maintenance has been performed by a main dealer. And I’ve received superb advice and service throughout. But do bear in mind that main dealers rarely handle cars with such mileages. Nor are Lambo going to put out a memo saying that the cats, required to homologate the vehicle, will eventually destroy the engine. And unlike the known failings of, for example, the Porsche 996, these cars aren’t produced in the required quantities or driven for the required mileages for such failures to be well known outside of a small circle.

Over the last few years I’ve discussed this with both Backdraft Motorsport and Buckinghamshire High Performance (BHP) who both confirmed that the anecdotal evidence that I had read online, was indeed true. Eventually, with oil consumption increasing, I was persuaded by Sonny at BHP to decat the engine. As an aside, he told me that he will not sell a car without decating it first.

As I said above, I think that I was probably lucky. I’ve heard of these engines lunching on their cats at a fraction of the miles that mine has covered. I wonder if the lack of short journeys and town driving has contributed to my cats remaining in predominantly good condition for so long?

And again as above, when I mentioned the decat to Ricky, his immediate reaction was to approve of the move on the grounds that, in his experience too, they are responsible for bore scoring and engine failures.......

[4321go]

I used ceramic coated bypass pipes supplied by BHP. Pretty easy to fit and retain the original lambda sensors. About 16,000 miles now and no issues with spurious engine warning lights. I already had an OEM Superleggera exhaust fitted (brand new and £155 on eBay from a scrap metal merchant who didn’t really know what he was selling; thankfully, all the rest f you missed it!!). Decatted, the noise is ABSOLUTELY EPIC (feel free to comment, Lambodave!). And it shoots blue flames that you can actually see in the rear view mirror at night!!!

MoT? Yes, you need cats to pass........

[4321go]

Nope, they’re proper bypass pipes; a constant diameter from headers to silencers.

As for “little or no difference” to the sound? The various stages from standard to SL back boxes to SL + decat went from boring to loud to EPIC. If you haven’t looked down a catalytic converter before, then you’ll be amazed at just how much material they contain. I’d say that at each stage the volume doubled. And the timbre is soooooo much better! Somebody commented recently that when they were following me, they turned off their radio for the entire trip (30 miles or so) just to listen to my exhaust note. It’s that addictive!

I’m in my late forties and commute 55 miles each way, both early in the morning and late at night. I don’t necessarily want LOUD and certainly don’t want a drone. I was a little worried that at each stage it’d be more than I could live with, and certainly, when I first heard it post-decat I wondered if it was too much. That lasted about a week.

But you can still hear the radio, albeit turned up a couple of notches, and you can still hold a conversation, with a ditto re volume. It’s close to open pipes and liveable-with on the day to day commute. As for the top of the rev range!! Wouldn’t swap back for all the tea in China.

[4321go]

Yes. Anywhere from stock 500bhp to twin-turbo 1500bhp. It’ll be returning to everyday road duties, so the latter is impractical and pointless. And if Ricky rebuilds the engine to absolute bog-stock OE and only achieves the former, I suspect that he’ll be deeply upset with himself!! But I doubt that it’ll end up completely bog-stock.....

Watch this space.

[4321go]

br d said:

Brilliant thread. And I've always loved your plate.

I normally put about 7K a year on a supercar and thought that was using it properly, you sir are a legend!

Thank you, but.....

I got lucky with the plate. Many years ago now, I saw it advertised in one of the weekend broadsheet’s motoring supplements and made a cheeky offer. I paid less for it than the original purchaser had paid the DVLA for it at auction!

And given that the average UK driver covers 8000 miles per annum, 7000 miles in what’s probably a second (or third) car seems like pretty proper usage to me!

[4321go]

LamboDave said:

Just to confirm the decat and exhaust combo on the car in question sounds incredible. There is no noise I’ve heard a car make that comes close to the sound of that V10. Addictive is the word I’d use. I’m looking forward to the results of the rebuild as much as the OP.

I didn’t decat my car with the intention of making it louder; I did it in the hope of eaking-out a few thousand more miles from an engine that I knew would need rebuilding eventually. And I can claim no responsibility for engineering the resulting exhaust system. What has resulted has been a lucky outcome! The combination of the harder-edged sound of the 5 litre engine, the Mk1 Superleggera silencers and the cat bypass pipes just happenes to produce an exhaust noe that I think is awesome.

LamboDave WAS responsible for engineering some of it (at least for managing to fit the SL exhaust to the standard coupe frame; in great Italian supercar tradition, it wasn’t a straight swap-over!!) He also advised me that I might find the decatted car TOO loud. We were both surprised with the results!!

Without removing his superhero mask, LamboDave (who’s real name may or may not be Dave ) has driven several Lambos every working day for the last 15 years, so if he too thinks that it sounds increadible..............

Cheers (may-or-may-not-be) Dave!

Edited by 4321go on Thursday 13th December 17:40

[4321go]

Whilst I did ask Ricky to contribute his expert knowledge on the decat issue, I really appreciate the time that he’s taken to provide such s comprehensive reply. I shouldn’t have really expected anything otherwise though, should I?

Cheers Ears!!

[4321go]

Shortly, I believe.......