The truth in the manual vs robotised manual obsession ?
Discussion
There have been several recent posts on PH and other car forums , in which commentators have decided that the inflated asking prices for manual transmission cars ( versus their identical robotised manual counterparts) are not justified .
This has led me to question what , in the real world , genuinely attracts people to manual transmission supercars .
The off-the-cuff / most common response is that manual transmission cars are more involving ( which appears to boil down to having to use 4 limbs rather than 3 to execute a gearchange ) , and that it must therefore , by default , be the ''enthusiasts '' choice , and so deserves its premium price .
But I wonder if this argument really holds water . I would be interested in your views .
Some points that I would like to make :
1) Those of us who are of a certain vintage , were brought up on manual transmission cars . They are therefore second nature to us . I find that I have to concentrate much more when driving a single or dual clutch robotised manual car cf a traditional gear lever manual car . Knowing which gear you are currently in , choosing exactly when to pull the paddle to up or downchange , slightly lifting off the throttle while simultaneously pulling a paddle , to smooth an upchange , all require more thought , and therefore more involvement . Admittedly this enhanced involvement is mental rather than physical, but it still enhanced involvement .
2) On those very few occasions when I have pulled off a perfect downchange in a manual transmission car , it has undeniably been very satisfying . But it is excruciatingly painful , both to me and the car , when even a single gearchange gets fluffed . And most of us are not expert enough to regularly and routinely get the downshift just right . If you are being honest , and you are sufficiently self-critical , you will acknowledge this simple truth This, after all , together with the speed at which a new gear could be engaged , was one of the driving factors behind racing teams developing robotised manual transmissions in the first place .
3) I can occasionally get a satisfactory downchange in my manual series 1 MX5 , but it is so much more difficult to achieve this in a high power, high torque supercar , whose clutch pedal is necessarily more heavy , and often more recalcitrant . Where is the driving pleasure , when a gearchange is fluffed , and a graunching noise sickens the soul ? A single graunch would not make up for 10 perfect downchanges , would it ?
4) I do wonder if we have been taken in by dealers and speculators , who have identified a rich seam to tap, by selling us the notion that manual transmission cars are the Holy Grail , and because they are no longer being produced in large numbers , that they must be better and more valuable .
5) The line of argument in (4) , would suggest that rarity , peer-pressure , dealer-talk , and resale value / capital appreciation is winning over technical advancement .
6) I don't think that the simple answer - ''go and get more training in heel and toeing / go and get more talent '' is an adequate response to the points above . I say this because supercar manufacturers were only responding to customer demand when they first chose to offer robotised manual cars in the first place . Then , and more so now , the demand for RMT cars far outstrips the demand for gearstick transmission cars . Were these customers just being more honest with themselves ?
7) The sound and feel when a first generation , single clutch robotised manual transmission car engages a new gear can be very mechanical , and very attractive . I accept that the latest dual clutch transmissions , albeit very fast , can lack this involvement .
I also dislike the additional complexity inherent in robotised manual transmission cars - there is simply more to go wrong .
Finally , I find that I can manoeuvre a gearstick car into a really tight parking space with so much more control and precision than I can a RMT car - this is a real world issue when parking a car within inches of another toy , but then , who chooses a supercar for its ease of parking ? !!
This has led me to question what , in the real world , genuinely attracts people to manual transmission supercars .
The off-the-cuff / most common response is that manual transmission cars are more involving ( which appears to boil down to having to use 4 limbs rather than 3 to execute a gearchange ) , and that it must therefore , by default , be the ''enthusiasts '' choice , and so deserves its premium price .
But I wonder if this argument really holds water . I would be interested in your views .
Some points that I would like to make :
1) Those of us who are of a certain vintage , were brought up on manual transmission cars . They are therefore second nature to us . I find that I have to concentrate much more when driving a single or dual clutch robotised manual car cf a traditional gear lever manual car . Knowing which gear you are currently in , choosing exactly when to pull the paddle to up or downchange , slightly lifting off the throttle while simultaneously pulling a paddle , to smooth an upchange , all require more thought , and therefore more involvement . Admittedly this enhanced involvement is mental rather than physical, but it still enhanced involvement .
2) On those very few occasions when I have pulled off a perfect downchange in a manual transmission car , it has undeniably been very satisfying . But it is excruciatingly painful , both to me and the car , when even a single gearchange gets fluffed . And most of us are not expert enough to regularly and routinely get the downshift just right . If you are being honest , and you are sufficiently self-critical , you will acknowledge this simple truth This, after all , together with the speed at which a new gear could be engaged , was one of the driving factors behind racing teams developing robotised manual transmissions in the first place .
3) I can occasionally get a satisfactory downchange in my manual series 1 MX5 , but it is so much more difficult to achieve this in a high power, high torque supercar , whose clutch pedal is necessarily more heavy , and often more recalcitrant . Where is the driving pleasure , when a gearchange is fluffed , and a graunching noise sickens the soul ? A single graunch would not make up for 10 perfect downchanges , would it ?
4) I do wonder if we have been taken in by dealers and speculators , who have identified a rich seam to tap, by selling us the notion that manual transmission cars are the Holy Grail , and because they are no longer being produced in large numbers , that they must be better and more valuable .
5) The line of argument in (4) , would suggest that rarity , peer-pressure , dealer-talk , and resale value / capital appreciation is winning over technical advancement .
6) I don't think that the simple answer - ''go and get more training in heel and toeing / go and get more talent '' is an adequate response to the points above . I say this because supercar manufacturers were only responding to customer demand when they first chose to offer robotised manual cars in the first place . Then , and more so now , the demand for RMT cars far outstrips the demand for gearstick transmission cars . Were these customers just being more honest with themselves ?
7) The sound and feel when a first generation , single clutch robotised manual transmission car engages a new gear can be very mechanical , and very attractive . I accept that the latest dual clutch transmissions , albeit very fast , can lack this involvement .
I also dislike the additional complexity inherent in robotised manual transmission cars - there is simply more to go wrong .
Finally , I find that I can manoeuvre a gearstick car into a really tight parking space with so much more control and precision than I can a RMT car - this is a real world issue when parking a car within inches of another toy , but then , who chooses a supercar for its ease of parking ? !!
Hi Richard ,
I put 10 years of my life into that Brooke - and still have so much material ( literature / history / models / stories ) on it - including Toby Sutton's ( the original designer ) drawings etc .
Really loved it - maybe a bit too much .
Ran out of garage space (and funds ) , so had to let the Brooke go to make space , and acquire funds , for a KTM X-BOW R ( something that I had lusted after for 10 years before getting my 980 mile 2012 car - so many similarities to , and associations with, the Countach )
I can confidently say that I have had absolutely no regrets about getting the X-BOW - and I have just written the world's first book on the Road Homologated KTM X-BOW s - with full support from the factory and Dallara .
( GOOGLE : 9781787114333 its available on Amazon , and there is a photo of the Brooke in it )
But there are times I miss the history of that particular Brooke ( by which I mean that individual car - shame that it has had its livery butchered recently , but that is easily rectified )
With regards to fluffed gearchanges , I really hate it when it happens , so really try and give any car the time , care and sympathy to make sure that it happens as seldom as possible .
But I have been driving manuals all my life , and I would be surprised if I contributed to the clutch in that Brooke being worn by even 5 % in the 10,000 or so miles that I drove it .
My Countach with 20,000 miles , which I have had for almost 20 years , is still on its original factory clutch , so I think that I am fairly sympathetic .
In the early years of my ownership , I drove the Countach all over Europe , and enjoyed it in a manner that is simply not possible today ( which is why my annual mileage in that car is now miniscule cf previously ) , and the clutch and gearbox never complained .
I do not know what has happened to the Brooke over the last 2-3 years , but when it left me , its clutch and gearbox were absolutely fine ….. the righthand gearshift is not an issue , but the gearlever movement ( particularly to engage reverse ) is unusual , although easily learnt .
Enjoy your test drive , and keep us informed
I put 10 years of my life into that Brooke - and still have so much material ( literature / history / models / stories ) on it - including Toby Sutton's ( the original designer ) drawings etc .
Really loved it - maybe a bit too much .
Ran out of garage space (and funds ) , so had to let the Brooke go to make space , and acquire funds , for a KTM X-BOW R ( something that I had lusted after for 10 years before getting my 980 mile 2012 car - so many similarities to , and associations with, the Countach )
I can confidently say that I have had absolutely no regrets about getting the X-BOW - and I have just written the world's first book on the Road Homologated KTM X-BOW s - with full support from the factory and Dallara .
( GOOGLE : 9781787114333 its available on Amazon , and there is a photo of the Brooke in it )
But there are times I miss the history of that particular Brooke ( by which I mean that individual car - shame that it has had its livery butchered recently , but that is easily rectified )
With regards to fluffed gearchanges , I really hate it when it happens , so really try and give any car the time , care and sympathy to make sure that it happens as seldom as possible .
But I have been driving manuals all my life , and I would be surprised if I contributed to the clutch in that Brooke being worn by even 5 % in the 10,000 or so miles that I drove it .
My Countach with 20,000 miles , which I have had for almost 20 years , is still on its original factory clutch , so I think that I am fairly sympathetic .
In the early years of my ownership , I drove the Countach all over Europe , and enjoyed it in a manner that is simply not possible today ( which is why my annual mileage in that car is now miniscule cf previously ) , and the clutch and gearbox never complained .
I do not know what has happened to the Brooke over the last 2-3 years , but when it left me , its clutch and gearbox were absolutely fine ….. the righthand gearshift is not an issue , but the gearlever movement ( particularly to engage reverse ) is unusual , although easily learnt .
Enjoy your test drive , and keep us informed
Hi again Richard ,
Absolutely the correct choice putting Mum first .... done that many times myself recently .
The car will wait for you
I sold the Brooke sometime in 2017 , I think .
I would be happy to talk to you about it .
The car needs dedication... in its purchase , it’s maintenance, and in driving it .
It’s great fun , it’s very fast , and it gives you the impression that it is even faster than it already most certainly is .
It also has almost no crash protection .
My wife , even though she rode shotgun , ( yes she deserves many medals ) over many many of those 10,000 or so miles ( including over 600 miles in one sitting ) , was very glad when I moved on to the X-BOW R .
Part availability may , or may not be a problem
The body needed to come off for even minor work
You need a good local mechanic... I was lucky in having an ex F1 mechanic very close by
Little niggles
But part of me still adores that car very ,very much .
It seems appropriate that we are discussing it on the Supercar Forum ..... it was exhilaratingly fast , very rare , manual , right hand gear change , naturally aspirated , bespoke ( many of the things Brooke did to my spec , including twin coolant reservoirs so that the Cosworth engine didn’t overheat on long distance Continental journeys ) longitudinally orientated engine in a part circular , part square space frame chassis .
What I will never forget is getting wheel spin in the dry in fifth at high revs , years ago on the Continent where it was legal of course, .... the Cosworth ECU was apparently programmed to suddenly give its all , just past 6000 rpm on this particular car ( it was the prototype )
I don’t know if this was deliberate or not , but the first time it happened it was a real surprise .
2nd time .... , proved that it is repeatable ,never again thereafter , thank you .
I designed that luggage carrier myself , and had it built .
I never got to use it .
Make sure that it is safe and legal ..... I never SVAed it or anything , never used it at all in fact
Having spent time with Dallara,s engineers while writing the X-BOW book , I now realise just how complex aerodynamics is , and my crude attempts at making it aerodynamic might not have been correct or safe .
Fun designing and getting it built , but never tested or used it . So be careful , very careful .
A life enhancing experience , that Brooke
A mini supercar
Absolutely the correct choice putting Mum first .... done that many times myself recently .
The car will wait for you
I sold the Brooke sometime in 2017 , I think .
I would be happy to talk to you about it .
The car needs dedication... in its purchase , it’s maintenance, and in driving it .
It’s great fun , it’s very fast , and it gives you the impression that it is even faster than it already most certainly is .
It also has almost no crash protection .
My wife , even though she rode shotgun , ( yes she deserves many medals ) over many many of those 10,000 or so miles ( including over 600 miles in one sitting ) , was very glad when I moved on to the X-BOW R .
Part availability may , or may not be a problem
The body needed to come off for even minor work
You need a good local mechanic... I was lucky in having an ex F1 mechanic very close by
Little niggles
But part of me still adores that car very ,very much .
It seems appropriate that we are discussing it on the Supercar Forum ..... it was exhilaratingly fast , very rare , manual , right hand gear change , naturally aspirated , bespoke ( many of the things Brooke did to my spec , including twin coolant reservoirs so that the Cosworth engine didn’t overheat on long distance Continental journeys ) longitudinally orientated engine in a part circular , part square space frame chassis .
What I will never forget is getting wheel spin in the dry in fifth at high revs , years ago on the Continent where it was legal of course, .... the Cosworth ECU was apparently programmed to suddenly give its all , just past 6000 rpm on this particular car ( it was the prototype )
I don’t know if this was deliberate or not , but the first time it happened it was a real surprise .
2nd time .... , proved that it is repeatable ,never again thereafter , thank you .
I designed that luggage carrier myself , and had it built .
I never got to use it .
Make sure that it is safe and legal ..... I never SVAed it or anything , never used it at all in fact
Having spent time with Dallara,s engineers while writing the X-BOW book , I now realise just how complex aerodynamics is , and my crude attempts at making it aerodynamic might not have been correct or safe .
Fun designing and getting it built , but never tested or used it . So be careful , very careful .
A life enhancing experience , that Brooke
A mini supercar
Congratulations Richard '
Will do
Enjoy
See you at this year's Beaulieu Supercar Showdown - you should get automatic eligibility - under my ownership , it joined my others , as the Beaulieu photographic library reference example .
Bet you didn't know that , and this will surely make your purchase even sweeter !!
Will do
Enjoy
See you at this year's Beaulieu Supercar Showdown - you should get automatic eligibility - under my ownership , it joined my others , as the Beaulieu photographic library reference example .
Bet you didn't know that , and this will surely make your purchase even sweeter !!
Hi Richard -- e mail sent , speak soon
13 dave -- look forward to meeting you at Beaulieu-- I just e-mailed Dan the organiser last week
The NSX is iconic -- met Senna's engineer at Beaulieu last year -- he ordered his red NSX immediately on hearing of Senna's death , and still has it .
You'll see him , and it , at this year's meet - an immaculately turned out Japanese gentleman , who is only outdone by the pristine appearance of his NSX which has done ? 150,000 miles .
Re manual vs auto -- the robotised manual transmissions appear to be a half-way house , but are much more similar to a manual than an auto
I find these RMTs demand more of me mentally , because I cant just put my hand out and feel the gear knob , and know which gear I am in .
I cant just slot the lever into the position where I know it should be for the upcoming revs .
Instead I have to mentally count the number of pulls on whichever is the relevant paddle
Something relatively new for me -- but it will be first nature for the present/ next generation
So a different form of concentration is needed -- at least for me .
But last week I reverted to form , and went backwards ( some , including you I suspect , will call it forwards )
I hear a new thread calling -- lets call it :
'' McLaren-lite -- manual & without the warranty concerns and advanced electronics issues ''
13 dave -- look forward to meeting you at Beaulieu-- I just e-mailed Dan the organiser last week
The NSX is iconic -- met Senna's engineer at Beaulieu last year -- he ordered his red NSX immediately on hearing of Senna's death , and still has it .
You'll see him , and it , at this year's meet - an immaculately turned out Japanese gentleman , who is only outdone by the pristine appearance of his NSX which has done ? 150,000 miles .
Re manual vs auto -- the robotised manual transmissions appear to be a half-way house , but are much more similar to a manual than an auto
I find these RMTs demand more of me mentally , because I cant just put my hand out and feel the gear knob , and know which gear I am in .
I cant just slot the lever into the position where I know it should be for the upcoming revs .
Instead I have to mentally count the number of pulls on whichever is the relevant paddle
Something relatively new for me -- but it will be first nature for the present/ next generation
So a different form of concentration is needed -- at least for me .
But last week I reverted to form , and went backwards ( some , including you I suspect , will call it forwards )
I hear a new thread calling -- lets call it :
'' McLaren-lite -- manual & without the warranty concerns and advanced electronics issues ''
Edited by carspath on Sunday 12th January 00:39
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