Ford Focus MOT Emissions failure
Discussion
Just had the Mrs 1.6 Ford Focus Zetec fail on CO emissions on fast idle.
The Limit is 0.2% whereas the Focus was showing between 0.57 and 0.46% at fast idle, 0.25 at natural idle.
The engine check light has been on recently and my cheap hand held fault code reader tells me that their is one fault code and it is N/A 01/01 which unfortunately does not seem to be listed in the accompanying booklet listing fault coes.
I suspect a simple air leak around the cat area.
Before I start scrabbling about underneath the car stripping down joints etc would those in the know agree with my hypothesis.
Cheers,
Tony
The Limit is 0.2% whereas the Focus was showing between 0.57 and 0.46% at fast idle, 0.25 at natural idle.
The engine check light has been on recently and my cheap hand held fault code reader tells me that their is one fault code and it is N/A 01/01 which unfortunately does not seem to be listed in the accompanying booklet listing fault coes.
I suspect a simple air leak around the cat area.
Before I start scrabbling about underneath the car stripping down joints etc would those in the know agree with my hypothesis.
Cheers,
Tony
Right guys this car is doing my fecking head in.
2003 Ford Focus with 106k on the clock which will not pass the high idle test because both myself and the garage cannot get the car to idle at 2500rpm without the revs dropping off, hence test has to be abandoned.
Th car will sit quite happily at a consistent, constant 2000 rpm, 3000rpm no problem, but go above 2200 rpm and the revs start to rise and then fall, and then rise again etc etc.
There are no fault codes showing nor are there any inlet air or exhaust leaks. Given the old adage that anything is fixable if you throw enough money at the problem I have so far done the following.
I have cleaned both the idle control valve and the throttle body/ butterfly valve so that they are now spotless. Cheap and I like the smell of carb cleaner.
More expensively the car now has a new Lambda sensor, a new throttle position sensor, a new MAP sensor, a new coil pack, new plugs ( gapped to 1.3mm as stipulated in the workshop manual) and new plug leads. The air filter is also new.
Why wont this thing hold a fast 2500 rpm idle?
Any guidance welcome as the Mrs, whose car it is, is losing her faith in my ability to keep our cars on the road and has started to suggest getting her a new car instead of spending money on my V8 toys.
Cheers,
Tony
2003 Ford Focus with 106k on the clock which will not pass the high idle test because both myself and the garage cannot get the car to idle at 2500rpm without the revs dropping off, hence test has to be abandoned.
Th car will sit quite happily at a consistent, constant 2000 rpm, 3000rpm no problem, but go above 2200 rpm and the revs start to rise and then fall, and then rise again etc etc.
There are no fault codes showing nor are there any inlet air or exhaust leaks. Given the old adage that anything is fixable if you throw enough money at the problem I have so far done the following.
I have cleaned both the idle control valve and the throttle body/ butterfly valve so that they are now spotless. Cheap and I like the smell of carb cleaner.
More expensively the car now has a new Lambda sensor, a new throttle position sensor, a new MAP sensor, a new coil pack, new plugs ( gapped to 1.3mm as stipulated in the workshop manual) and new plug leads. The air filter is also new.
Why wont this thing hold a fast 2500 rpm idle?
Any guidance welcome as the Mrs, whose car it is, is losing her faith in my ability to keep our cars on the road and has started to suggest getting her a new car instead of spending money on my V8 toys.
Cheers,
Tony
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the advice. Just to clarify the problem when I say the revs rise and fall its only because when you try to set a steady 2500rpm the revs start to drop off, so you have to push on the throttle to get the revs back up, they shoot past 3000rpm whereupon you slightly release the throttle and back down they come to sub 2000rpm.
Basically at a stationary idle you have no throttle control between 2000 and 3000 ropm. However on the road, when the engine is under even a slight load the car behaves faultlessly.
I've just checked all the hoses again , this time spraying copius quantities of butane gas all over the inlet manifold, around the throttle body and over all the likely culprit pipes and the engine didn't pick up at all...
If there was an inlet leak, even hidden, with the amount of gas I put over the engine its inconceivable that some wouldn't have found its way into the inlet tract.
Keep your ideas coming, any help welcome.
Cheers,
Tony
Thanks for the advice. Just to clarify the problem when I say the revs rise and fall its only because when you try to set a steady 2500rpm the revs start to drop off, so you have to push on the throttle to get the revs back up, they shoot past 3000rpm whereupon you slightly release the throttle and back down they come to sub 2000rpm.
Basically at a stationary idle you have no throttle control between 2000 and 3000 ropm. However on the road, when the engine is under even a slight load the car behaves faultlessly.
I've just checked all the hoses again , this time spraying copius quantities of butane gas all over the inlet manifold, around the throttle body and over all the likely culprit pipes and the engine didn't pick up at all...
If there was an inlet leak, even hidden, with the amount of gas I put over the engine its inconceivable that some wouldn't have found its way into the inlet tract.
Keep your ideas coming, any help welcome.
Cheers,
Tony
Hi Guys,
Still having a problem with the Focus unable to hold a high idle between 2200 and 2900rpm. Revs to 3000rpm, holds it for a few seconds then drops to 2200 rpm and starts "hunting". Whilst revs are dropping no throttle inputs have any effect.
Took it for a computer diagnostics check at the weekend and there's no fault codes, but the technician said there's two possible causes, the idle control valve and the second O2 sensor after the cat.
I have therefore replaced both, with absolutely zero effect.
Suffice to say I've spunked loads of cash on relacing the following and its all been wasted.
Diagnostic check who couldn't find anything wrong.
New coil pack.
New plugs ( leads only 15,000 miles old)
New idle control valve
New Pre cat O2 sensor.
New Post cat O2 sensor
New Absolute Manifold pressure sensor.
New Throttle position sensor.
All of these things had zero effect.
The throttle body has been cleaned ( but was very clean anyway)and the air filter is only 5000 miles old.
Anyone got any ideas at all?
Cheers,
Tony
Still having a problem with the Focus unable to hold a high idle between 2200 and 2900rpm. Revs to 3000rpm, holds it for a few seconds then drops to 2200 rpm and starts "hunting". Whilst revs are dropping no throttle inputs have any effect.
Took it for a computer diagnostics check at the weekend and there's no fault codes, but the technician said there's two possible causes, the idle control valve and the second O2 sensor after the cat.
I have therefore replaced both, with absolutely zero effect.
Suffice to say I've spunked loads of cash on relacing the following and its all been wasted.
Diagnostic check who couldn't find anything wrong.
New coil pack.
New plugs ( leads only 15,000 miles old)
New idle control valve
New Pre cat O2 sensor.
New Post cat O2 sensor
New Absolute Manifold pressure sensor.
New Throttle position sensor.
All of these things had zero effect.
The throttle body has been cleaned ( but was very clean anyway)and the air filter is only 5000 miles old.
Anyone got any ideas at all?
Cheers,
Tony
stevieturbo said:
TBH swapping parts at random, especially with new parts is sheer lunacy.
Didnt the "diagnostics" guy actually test any of the sensors or ignition system ?
And assuming all other aspects are fine, there is no exhaust leaks ( again 4/5 gas test would show this, so I'd assume any "diagnostics" person would test this ? )
Then whilst it is rare, there is a methodology that states when you have a problem with the fuel system, the first place to start is the fuel injectors.
Thanks for the info, Didnt the "diagnostics" guy actually test any of the sensors or ignition system ?
And assuming all other aspects are fine, there is no exhaust leaks ( again 4/5 gas test would show this, so I'd assume any "diagnostics" person would test this ? )
Then whilst it is rare, there is a methodology that states when you have a problem with the fuel system, the first place to start is the fuel injectors.
Yep, sheer lunacy indeed if the parts hadn't been suggested as the most likely ones being at fault, bear in mind that the car has been back on the exhaust analyser between each new part fitted. 5 times now.
The diagnostic connected up his Bosch machine went through a few programs, couldn't find anthing wrong apart from some "poor readings" on the rear O2 sensor and told me that that was the most likely culprit, either that or the ICV. I think now he was guessing much as his other mates where the MOT was done.
TBH the coil pack wasn't suggested but the Focus tends to eat coil packs ( 4 in the life of the car so far) so I put a new one on anyway as a winter precaution and kept the old one as a spare.
I see the logic in looking at fuel delivery , ( plus basically there's feck all left to change) but would the injectors create a situation whereby it would rev up to 3000rpm, then drop off down to a surging 2200 rpm even if the throttle pedal is opened.
I would presume that an injector test would be required ( hello Mr Diagnostic again) and probably a set of refurbed injectors......
Or could it be the throttle body, maybe the throttle plate/ disc isn't working correctly? How would I check this?
Cheers,
Tony
stevieturbo said:
But you seem to suggest the unstable rpm faulty is secondary to the non-MOT worthy emissions ? Although the two may be related as well.
Thanks Stevie, I think that the unstable and uncontrollable idle between 2200 and 3000 rpm is indeed symptomatic or even the cause of the poor emissions at the high idle part of the MOT test.
Something is indeed causing the ECU to make the CO unstable, as if its overcorrecting, but without any fault codes being logged. Prior to the MOT the engine was running sweetly ( and still does as long as you don't want to hold a fast idle without load), so a major mechanical fault does seem highly unlikely.
The MOT guy suggested I changed the TPS as he's seen a few faulty ones causing erratic idle and incorrect mixtures, and I could see the logic in his argument. When that didn't work you look at other things that affect the mixture, ie replace manifold pressure switch. Having also replaced the pre cat lambda sensor I opted to get a diagnosis from an expert, who it appears may not have been so expert as I could have suggested to replacing the second O2 sensor and the ICV thus saving me a diagnosis fee.
I was getting so fed up with the Focus I went out with the Mrs at the weekend and bought her a brand new Skoda Octavia replacement so at least we are both mobile, but this batle has now turned into a war of attrition and I will not let this Focus heap on the drive beat me.
But I will be buying shares in GSF car parts.........
Cheers,
Tony
Simon says said:
A faulty PCV valve as been the culprit of many running faults on the Zetec motor causing fluctuating RPM and throttle hesitation 
worth checking and cheap and may explain that high HC you mentioned earlier on 
This was next on my list following loads of research on almost every Ford Forum and indeed when last at the local car parts emporium ( Saturday) I asked them if they could supply me with a replacement PCV valve. worth checking and cheap and may explain that high HC you mentioned earlier on Unfortunately it appears to be a Ford Dealer Only part. However it is coming out tomorrow afternoon for a good clean at the very least. I will report back.
Cheers,
Tony
Tony427 said:
This was next on my list following loads of research on almost every Ford Forum and indeed when last at the local car parts emporium ( Saturday) I asked them if they could supply me with a replacement PCV valve.
Unfortunately it appears to be a Ford Dealer Only part. However it is coming out tomorrow afternoon for a good clean at the very least. I will report back.
Cheers,
Tony
Well its not the PCV valve or the the pipes between it and the inlet manifold. Unfortunately it appears to be a Ford Dealer Only part. However it is coming out tomorrow afternoon for a good clean at the very least. I will report back.
Cheers,
Tony
I took off the inlet manifold this afternoon and gave it a good clean inside and a really good check over as well as the breather pipes. All were good. The PCV valve itself was only £9 from Ford so I bought a new one anyway as the inlet manifold is not coming off again under my tenure.
What was heartening was just how clean the inlet tracts were and how shiny the valves were. Compared to how coked up old cars used to get at half the mileage this one has done I was frankly amazed.
So, time for a beer, a bit of a read of the fuel system part of the Focus workshop manual and some more thinking.
Cheers,
Tony
Pumaracing said:
Maybe if you'd asked on here before changing any of them
as in my first post on 28th September
or just applied even the most basic logical analysis......
Yes I made the mistake of listening to mechanics in garages and paying for a useless diagnostics check.
Another possibility is a fault in the ecu which is failing to map properly in certain places but that would be incredibly rare.
Go on, cheer me up.
Finally I'd check with a Ford main dealer to see if it's a known issue which they may have a fix for.
I've asked " Bring it in and we'll have a look at it"
Clearly anything that has to affect multiple rpm bands like coolant sensors can't be the problem so stop changing stuff at random!
Only thing that I have changed at random ie without a logical reason behind it or as reccommended by "professionals", was the coil pack and I did indulge myself in a £9 PCV valve.
Cheers, as in my first post on 28th September
or just applied even the most basic logical analysis......
Yes I made the mistake of listening to mechanics in garages and paying for a useless diagnostics check.
Another possibility is a fault in the ecu which is failing to map properly in certain places but that would be incredibly rare.
Go on, cheer me up.
Finally I'd check with a Ford main dealer to see if it's a known issue which they may have a fix for.
I've asked " Bring it in and we'll have a look at it"
Clearly anything that has to affect multiple rpm bands like coolant sensors can't be the problem so stop changing stuff at random!
Only thing that I have changed at random ie without a logical reason behind it or as reccommended by "professionals", was the coil pack and I did indulge myself in a £9 PCV valve.
Tony
Pumaracing said:
Hmmm. I'm not really very well up on the cost of modern control system components like lambda sensors and manifold pressure sensors having never bought any of them but I'd have thought that for what he's changed already he could have had not only a multimeter and a few books but a replacement 2003 1.6 Ford Focus, or at least most of one.
Yes but think I've got a shed load of secondhand spares......for a car I hate. Cheers,
Tony
There's been a few guys pm'd me telling me the same problem, a cheap aftermarket exhaust manifold is fitted and then their problems start.
Suffice to say I also have a cheap aftermarket exhaust manifold fitted.
However since I am a typical PH aficianado with multiple directorships and a goatee and no need of a typical bog standard car, following the problems with my last MOT I have stuck the car into the garage where it is presently residing with its front 4 foot into the air and its exhaust manifold sitting on the ground.
I need to TAX/MOT it in May so prior to this I will fit a kosher Ford exhaust manifold and update those interested.
Cheers,
Tony
Suffice to say I also have a cheap aftermarket exhaust manifold fitted.
However since I am a typical PH aficianado with multiple directorships and a goatee and no need of a typical bog standard car, following the problems with my last MOT I have stuck the car into the garage where it is presently residing with its front 4 foot into the air and its exhaust manifold sitting on the ground.
I need to TAX/MOT it in May so prior to this I will fit a kosher Ford exhaust manifold and update those interested.
Cheers,
Tony
robj1969 said:
Tony
cheers for update and previous emails.
I've noticed on the vosa website the following link
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Emissions%20...
The 1.6 focus fast test must be 2800 - 3100 RPM......wonder why...lol
Another weird thing is that when I was driving at 40 mph today I put car in neutral, waited for revs to drop to tickover then revved to around 2500rpm and could hold it there, did the same at 15mph, same result....cannot see the difference between what i did today and doing when car at standstill.....only thing different is the speed sensor is picking up a different signal.
Look forward to hearing back from you once the manifold replaced
Cheers
Rob
Hi Rob, cheers for update and previous emails.
I've noticed on the vosa website the following link
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Emissions%20...
The 1.6 focus fast test must be 2800 - 3100 RPM......wonder why...lol
Another weird thing is that when I was driving at 40 mph today I put car in neutral, waited for revs to drop to tickover then revved to around 2500rpm and could hold it there, did the same at 15mph, same result....cannot see the difference between what i did today and doing when car at standstill.....only thing different is the speed sensor is picking up a different signal.
Look forward to hearing back from you once the manifold replaced
Cheers
Rob
Fitted the genuine Ford manifold and guess what?
Absolutely feck all difference, still cannot hold 2500 revs fast idle.
This must be a design/engine programming fault. theres nothing left to check, replace, no fault codes etc.
I will now be taking the car to a local MOT station, quoting the fast idle setting at them from the link above and tell them to get it through. I don't care how.
Thereupon I will be flogging the car to anyone who will have it and will never, never, ever buy another Ford.
I've learnt my lesson.
Cheers,
Tony
oakdale said:
Just stumbled upon this thread and it has jogged my memory about the same fault I had with one of these years ago, which turned out to be a broken wire in the loom to the connector for the air mass meter.
I would therefore imagine that a faulty air mass meter could cause the same problem but I'm not suggesting you change any more parts.
Does the car have aircon, and if so does it make any difference to the revving if it's turned on?
All wiring on the engine loom has been checked and OK. I would therefore imagine that a faulty air mass meter could cause the same problem but I'm not suggesting you change any more parts.
Does the car have aircon, and if so does it make any difference to the revving if it's turned on?
No fault codes stored or triggered. Not tried revving the engine with air con on , but I'll give it a go for curiosity's sake.
Cheers,
Tony
Just an update.
After being heartily sick to death of the Focus I stuck it into my garage and forgot about it ( apart from occasionally starting it up and running it up to temperature to charge the battery) and ran around in the daughters Polo for the last 9 months as she was off doing her post degree travelling.
Then she came home, kidnapped her car from me, and so with a heavy heart and sense of trepidation last Thursday I dragged the Focus out of its coma and Without Touching a Thing On It took it to a different MOT Station.
I gave the garage owner a brief synopsis of my sorry tale who said that he'd MOT it and we'd go from there. I told him I'd be back after 5.00pm to discuss the options.
I walked the 30 minutes home, made a coffee, started watching the Olympic highlights and the phone went.
" Your cars ready for collection"
Me somewhat surprised " Erm, what, erm did it pass ? "
" Sailed through mate, sailed through."
It appears that the previous MOT centre was indeed unaware of the higher idle speed requirements of the Ford Focus as the emissions printout shows that the second test centre ran the fast idle at 3,000rpm and it was well within the limits on the first fast idle test.
Moral of the story: never assume the MOT centre knows what its doing, or his brother who owns the diagnostics centre next door knows one end of a engine control system from another.
Cheers,
Tony
After being heartily sick to death of the Focus I stuck it into my garage and forgot about it ( apart from occasionally starting it up and running it up to temperature to charge the battery) and ran around in the daughters Polo for the last 9 months as she was off doing her post degree travelling.
Then she came home, kidnapped her car from me, and so with a heavy heart and sense of trepidation last Thursday I dragged the Focus out of its coma and Without Touching a Thing On It took it to a different MOT Station.
I gave the garage owner a brief synopsis of my sorry tale who said that he'd MOT it and we'd go from there. I told him I'd be back after 5.00pm to discuss the options.
I walked the 30 minutes home, made a coffee, started watching the Olympic highlights and the phone went.
" Your cars ready for collection"
Me somewhat surprised " Erm, what, erm did it pass ? "
" Sailed through mate, sailed through."
It appears that the previous MOT centre was indeed unaware of the higher idle speed requirements of the Ford Focus as the emissions printout shows that the second test centre ran the fast idle at 3,000rpm and it was well within the limits on the first fast idle test.
Moral of the story: never assume the MOT centre knows what its doing, or his brother who owns the diagnostics centre next door knows one end of a engine control system from another.
Cheers,
Tony
Final Update on the Ford Focus.
After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
No signs of overheating, no water usage up to then, but a diagnostic check using the odometer button showed normal temps and the car restarted and drove home with check light on. Code reader once at home showed no codes and I cancelled engine check light.
Drove to Grantham and it broke down 4 times on the way there and 12 times on the way back. I had removed the thermostat on route there ( suspecting stat stuck in closed position). It wasn't a stuck stat. Got it home. The car would go into limp mode at 70 mph , I could turn dip the clutch, turn the engine off and back on again without stopping and the car would drive perfectly again, once for 17 miles.
Got it to go into "limp mode" whilst on the drive and thought that it could either be head gasket or an air lock. I had fitted a new water pump 4000 miles previously. No Fault codes still.
I bought a block test kit. No gases present in water whilst running engine.
Was it a sensor fault? Temperature senders are a problem on this engine as they are a direct bolt in fit into the metal of the head and often go wrong, so I bought a new sender.
Tried to open bonnet to fit sender. Bonnet lock ( opens using ignition key behind grille badge) now completely inoperative, despite being fine the previous day.
At this point after all the crap this car had put me through I admit I started kicking the front of the car , only to have the Mrs come out after hearing all the commotion, swearing etc.
"I dont blame you" she said.
I then had to rip off most of the front of car to get at the lock, which is encased in metal and plastic.
Lock is now removed. A screwdriver now opens the lock efficiently.
Fit the sender. It still goes into limp mode.
Well that leaves the ECU. So I had that checked FOC and it was perfect.
Carry out second block test. Still no gases in water.
Empty and Vacuum fill the cooling system. Car drives for 70 miles without any problem, "I've cracked it thinks I" then the car goes into limp mode again.
Remove water pump and check it, metal impellor, totally perfect and its the correct model.
Refit water pump, vacuum fill the system etc etc and the bloody thing still goes into limp mode on the drive.
Remove the fabled problematic heater matrix ( as mentioned on Forums) , test and refit. Vacuum fill again. It goes into limp mode on the drive.
Its not the stat, its not the sender, its not the pump, its not got a leak in either radiator or heater, its been vacuum filled, it must, must be a Head Gasket problem.
Carry out another Block Test, the third.
I got to get a panel of independent people ( relatives round for Sunday Lunch) to view the liquid and two out of five discerned the slightest trace of green in the blue liquid. I couldn't see it myself. Neither could the others.
So, off comes the head, the head and gasket look perfect. I have learnt that this car does not play by the rules so I send the head off for the very slightest skimming anyway, just to get the very best sealing surface possible. The bores btw on this 100k plus engine still had the honing marks.
Slap on the new gasket, the refreshed head and using new bolts torque the beggar down.
After over 100 miles the engine hasn't missed a beat. I'm sure it was just lulling me into a false sense of security. So I gave it a treat and a valet.
And today I sold the fecking heap of crap.
To a taxi driver who has run his last Focus to over 300k. Thatll teach it.
Its not often I do a little jig of happiness in the kitchen.
Cheers,
Tony
After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
No signs of overheating, no water usage up to then, but a diagnostic check using the odometer button showed normal temps and the car restarted and drove home with check light on. Code reader once at home showed no codes and I cancelled engine check light.
Drove to Grantham and it broke down 4 times on the way there and 12 times on the way back. I had removed the thermostat on route there ( suspecting stat stuck in closed position). It wasn't a stuck stat. Got it home. The car would go into limp mode at 70 mph , I could turn dip the clutch, turn the engine off and back on again without stopping and the car would drive perfectly again, once for 17 miles.
Got it to go into "limp mode" whilst on the drive and thought that it could either be head gasket or an air lock. I had fitted a new water pump 4000 miles previously. No Fault codes still.
I bought a block test kit. No gases present in water whilst running engine.
Was it a sensor fault? Temperature senders are a problem on this engine as they are a direct bolt in fit into the metal of the head and often go wrong, so I bought a new sender.
Tried to open bonnet to fit sender. Bonnet lock ( opens using ignition key behind grille badge) now completely inoperative, despite being fine the previous day.
At this point after all the crap this car had put me through I admit I started kicking the front of the car , only to have the Mrs come out after hearing all the commotion, swearing etc.
"I dont blame you" she said.
I then had to rip off most of the front of car to get at the lock, which is encased in metal and plastic.
Lock is now removed. A screwdriver now opens the lock efficiently.
Fit the sender. It still goes into limp mode.
Well that leaves the ECU. So I had that checked FOC and it was perfect.
Carry out second block test. Still no gases in water.
Empty and Vacuum fill the cooling system. Car drives for 70 miles without any problem, "I've cracked it thinks I" then the car goes into limp mode again.
Remove water pump and check it, metal impellor, totally perfect and its the correct model.
Refit water pump, vacuum fill the system etc etc and the bloody thing still goes into limp mode on the drive.
Remove the fabled problematic heater matrix ( as mentioned on Forums) , test and refit. Vacuum fill again. It goes into limp mode on the drive.
Its not the stat, its not the sender, its not the pump, its not got a leak in either radiator or heater, its been vacuum filled, it must, must be a Head Gasket problem.
Carry out another Block Test, the third.
I got to get a panel of independent people ( relatives round for Sunday Lunch) to view the liquid and two out of five discerned the slightest trace of green in the blue liquid. I couldn't see it myself. Neither could the others.
So, off comes the head, the head and gasket look perfect. I have learnt that this car does not play by the rules so I send the head off for the very slightest skimming anyway, just to get the very best sealing surface possible. The bores btw on this 100k plus engine still had the honing marks.
Slap on the new gasket, the refreshed head and using new bolts torque the beggar down.
After over 100 miles the engine hasn't missed a beat. I'm sure it was just lulling me into a false sense of security. So I gave it a treat and a valet.
And today I sold the fecking heap of crap.
To a taxi driver who has run his last Focus to over 300k. Thatll teach it.
Its not often I do a little jig of happiness in the kitchen.
Cheers,
Tony
stevieturbo said:
Let me get this right.
The car actually stopped running....and you started changing temp sensor, cooling system, head gasket...etc etc ?
That seems a bit mental ?
Why not try and establish why it stopped first ?
No you have got it wrong.The car actually stopped running....and you started changing temp sensor, cooling system, head gasket...etc etc ?
That seems a bit mental ?
Why not try and establish why it stopped first ?
I really do wish you would try and read posts before you answer them. But that would mean you couldn't be condescending wouldn't it?
If you had read the post you would have realised that the car was running throughout, it kept on going into limp mode as a result of a very slight head gasket leak which was pressurising the head/ cooling system, displacing water and causing a hot spot underneath the sensor.
Had the temperature sensor been in the water circuit and not the head itself, the problem would probably have gone unnoticed until the hg blew in a bigger way.
I was also pointing out that block tests are not infallible and can be difficult to interpret if the HG has not suffered a bad failure.
BTW I forgot to add in the original post that I had carried out a compression test and a leakdown test and neither showed a HG problem so I now believe the leak only opened up when the engine was hot.
Cheers,
Tony
stevieturbo said:
Each to their own. I guess what you're describing is plausible, bit wouldnt be convinced..
But a sniffer test is very reliable even for minor leaks. Coloured dye test perhaps a little more vague, but a blown gasket will usually show a distinct colour change. As described, a minor colour change even on a good setup isnt uncommon and can be misleading.. The sniffer is more reliable than either a leakdown or compression test as far as diagnosing a head gasket to waterway leak.
or either pressure test the cooling system and monitor pressure drop, or manually pressurise the cylinder and monitor cooling system for any air ingress.
Either way, seems the problems are finally over.
I'm not saying the HG wasnt at fault, but the scenario you describe doesnt make sense to me.
What temperature was the sensor seeing/sending during all these incidents ? And was the heater/blower working and blowing hot air throughout ?
The temperature the guage was showing was middle of the dial, then would shoot up into the red in one or two seconds and then limp mode would start ( shutting down two cylinders) and first speed the engiine cooling fan sometimes wouldn't even get the opportunity to switch on, never mind the second high speed mode, it happens so quickly. The digital diagnostic dash readout ( via the odometer button) would show a slight build up to the mid eighties and then it would climb very rapidly to 122 at max when the engine would shut down. But a sniffer test is very reliable even for minor leaks. Coloured dye test perhaps a little more vague, but a blown gasket will usually show a distinct colour change. As described, a minor colour change even on a good setup isnt uncommon and can be misleading.. The sniffer is more reliable than either a leakdown or compression test as far as diagnosing a head gasket to waterway leak.
or either pressure test the cooling system and monitor pressure drop, or manually pressurise the cylinder and monitor cooling system for any air ingress.
Either way, seems the problems are finally over.
Tony427 said:
No you have got it wrong.
I really do wish you would try and read posts before you answer them. But that would mean you couldn't be condescending wouldn't it?
If you had read the post you would have realised that the car was running throughout
I really do wish you would try and read posts before you answer them. But that would mean you couldn't be condescending wouldn't it?
If you had read the post you would have realised that the car was running throughout
Tony427 said:
Final Update on the Ford Focus.
After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
Sorry, guess I misunderstood that last comment ? It suggests to me the engine stopped ?After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
Tony427 said:
The car would go into limp mode at 70 mph , I could turn dip the clutch, turn the engine off and back on again without stopping and the car would drive perfectly again, once for 17 miles.
And again. If the ecu/engine thinks it is overheating due to a sensor reading. Turning the engine off/on for a split second isnt really going to change that reading. So when you turn it back on, the same fault or limp mode should activate. No way should it take another 17 miles.I'm not saying the HG wasnt at fault, but the scenario you describe doesnt make sense to me.
What temperature was the sensor seeing/sending during all these incidents ? And was the heater/blower working and blowing hot air throughout ?
All the time to heater was working fine, blowing hot air if required.
Indeed I could start the car and warm it up, then turn on the air conditioning which automatically started the high speed fan thereby overcooling the radiator, which made the bottom hose quite cold, and the top hose lukewarm, and yet the digital readout would climb to 122 degrees centigrade and the engine would be put into limp mode.
There's clips on youtube of Focuses being driven with rapidly fluctuating temperature guages which are put down to faulty dashboards, ( There was a recall and Ford still give support charging just over £100 for a new instrument set) and can be rectified by removing the instrument binnacle and giving the printed circuit board a good clean with electrical contact cleaner. I whipped the dash out , gave it a minute inspection under magnification however there were no visible problems so gave it a good clean with a fine brush and contact cleaner and reinstalled it.
The extremely rapid rise in both the analogue readout through the guage and the matching digital readout through the onboard diagnostics indicated to me that either the sensor was faulty or there was a localised hot spot under the metal into which the temperature sensor was bolted. Hence the gamble on the £9 sensor which , on the forums, seems to be prone to failure.
As that didn't cure the problem the only option seemed to be a faulty water pump, not circulating the coolant , a hg problem or an air lock.
At no time during all this did the car ever lose any water, boil over or show any signs of overheating apart from the dreaded dash lights and limp mode.
Still all over now.
Given all the work and stuff I've done on the car it will probably reward the new owner with 000's of miles of cheap trouble free motoring.
Cheers,
Tony
Sardonicus said:
I was under the understanding that the rad fan is controlled by the ECU so that being the case when the temp shoots up then the rad fan should be functioning/on, if that is not the case it can only be the instrument cluster thats indicating (incorrectly overheating) as this also receives its signal via the ECU although I stand to corrected as i have not experienced this fault on a Focus to date.
Yep, the ECU controls the rad fan and also tells the instrument cluster what temp to show on the guage. However the guage is not linear and shows middle position whether the real digital temp is 85 to 100 degrees celcius.In my Focus the temp could rise from 85 to 122 in less than 10 seconds, the ECU would start up the initial low speed fan and then as the temperature continued to climb immediately bring in the higher speed fan ( same fan but two different speeds). However this was always ineffective as the digital diagnostic temperature always hit the 122 degree trigger and the ECU then instigated the limp mode.
The top hose at this time could still be only warm to the touch.....with no thermostat in the system.
In all effects a cold radiator but with max fan cooling being applied by the ECU which thinks the engine is overheating because the sensor is telling it that the temperature in the metal of the cylinder head in the sensors location is 122 degrees celcius. Which it probably was.
The instrument cluster at this point is in catch up mode, the ECU has put the engine into limp mode just as the needle hits the red zone on the guage.
Great fun eh.
I've got a big lazy Volvo now, and a Lexus LS400, and a Polo for the daughter, and a Skoda for the Mrs and I'm building a second Lexus engined Cobra replica in my garage, my first is in my mates garage in Grantham.
My first car was a Mk 1 Cortina at 17 , my car at University was a Mk3 Cortina, I had a 2.5 litre V6 Mondeo in my 30's, I loved them all.
I've had over 40 cars in my life so far. I've rebuilt more engines for me, friends and family than I care to remember. I've rebuilt Classic Jags and built 4 kitcars. I spent 18 months just wiring in the the engine and gearbox computers in my first BMW engined Cobra ffs.
And I can honestly say I have never, ever had a car that has given me as much trouble and grief as the Ford Focus that has been the bane of my life for the last 12 months.
I am ecstatic to be rid of the thing.
I will never ever buy another Ford. But thats just my opinion. Other opinions may vary. ( But then again I also had a Ford era Jag S type that I called my "clowns car" as a result of its build quality ie it too seemed to be built out of cheese, by accountants.)
Cheers,
Tony
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