Valve To Camshaft Clearances 1 Exhaust Too Big

[Penelope Stopit]

Engine is a Peugeot 1.9 diesel XUD

I have bought a second hand engine

In checking the clearances all the valves apart from one exhaust valve are within their tolerances, what puzzles me is that No7 exhaust valve that's out of tolerance has too big a clearance, I expected an exhaust valve clearance to tighten rather than go bigger.
I have only measured and adjusted the valve clearances on 6 engines in the past so am definitely lacking knowledge, the valve that's out is 5 thousandths over the max allowed gap.
See below manufacturers tolerances and my measured clearances

Inlets 15 +/- 5
Exhausts 30 +/- 5

1 Inlet 10 Minimum
2 Exhaust 30 Bang on
3 Exhaust 35 Maximum
4 inlet 15 Bang On
5 Inlet 20 Maximum
6 Exhaust 35 Maximum
7 Exhaust 40 **********XXXXX*************
8 Inlet 20 Maximum

As you can see there is only No 2 exhaust valve that's bang on and the other two exhaust valves are at their max clearance, inlets show No 4 bang on, No 1 at minimum and the other two at their maximum
Looking at all the clearances the majority are on the plus side of allowed

Is there possibly a reason for the clearances being more big than small?
Should I take the camshaft out and attempt to get all clearances bang on?
If it is suggested that I remove the camshaft.....Should I remove the cylinder head while i'm at it and fit a new gasket before re-measuring and adjusting the clearances

Moving on from the above....Should I remove a conrod or crank cap/shell to get an idea of the overall condition of the engine
Unfortunately I haven't heard this engine run but it does have a guarantee and it will be fitted within that guarantee time so I am able to return it if need be although I would very likely rebuild it (make one out of two) if there was a problem

I will be fitting new oil seals, cambelt, water pump and clutch before the swap

Opinions from those with much knowledge will be gladly received, thank you in advance

[Penelope Stopit]

This engine is buckets and shims over valve stems
The problem I have is a possible 3 days waiting for the correct size shims and would be removing the camshaft to close up one exhaust valve clearance that is 5 thou over the manufacturers tolerance figures, although some other clearances are at their max or min given tolerance figures they could well be ok for many thousands of miles
Decision time for this job but I am struggling to find out how important it is to have that one exhaust valve clearance reduced by so little to get it within tolerance

[Penelope Stopit]

Lotobear said:

...grind the shim on a surface grinder of oilstone to reduce it?

The problem is that the shim is too thin and having trawled the internet I can't find any shims for sale
It's all about how critical that exhaust valve being 5 over the Peugeot tolerance max figure is
Thanks for the tip for reducing the shim sizes, have you any tips for how to make shims bigger?

[Penelope Stopit]

227bhp said:

Put them in potting compost on the window cill and keep them watered.

It's up you to make the decision on how far you go, you have your own criteria to meet which you haven't mentioned. If you took the head off you would maybe find out what is causing it, it's possible lapping that one in will close up the clearance.

Ok Thanks for the help, If I can't shim it I will take the head off,and go from there, if I do manage to shim it I will fit and test and if there is a problem will remove the head
By this evening I may have changed my mind and decided to remove the head as the valve lapping is a very good option

[Penelope Stopit]

paintman said:

Stating the obvious but as it's a 2nd hand engine you have no way of knowing what's been done to it before.
Difficult to have much in the way of ideas as you haven't had the cam off to check.
Any damage to the top of the valve stems?
Wear to the shims themselves?

FWIW many years ago I reshimmed my Imp & finished up putting the original shims back in as it just didn't feel right - when I removed the old ones I'd taped them to a bit of card in the positions they were originally in.

ETA A very quick google - i'm just about to go to work - shows shims on ebay & a suggestion on a Pug forum that a franchised dealer should be able to get them although in my dealings with Peugeot dealers they carry little in stock but get it in the following day.
Might be worth signing up to Peugeot's Service box to get their part numbers. Link shows in French but go to the bottom right & you'll find a pop-up for other languages.
http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com/pages/index.j...

Edited by paintman on Thursday 17th May 08:34

Thanks, I will be removing the cam to delve deeper and may remove the head, I couldn't find shims at ebay, will take another look
Peugeot's Service box wouldn't let me in last time I tried but I do have the shim sizes with part numbers

[Penelope Stopit]

DVandrews said:

Rule of thumb on clearances.. are the followers tapping audibly? IIf so then the clearance has gone beyond what the initial lift ramp can handle. If that is the case then it is likely that wear will occur rapidly form the hammering, this can wipe out the cam lobe as well as the shim/follower. If it were me I would be reshimming and aiming for the nominal clearance on all the followers. Disassembly after careful measuring of the clearances and accurate measuring of the existing shims will tell you what you need, you m any be able to re-deploy one or two of them.

Dave

Thank you
Ok having given this much thought and knowing the little I do know about the engine I have decided to do as above and see if I can get hold of a compression tester so as to be able to test the engine before fitting it as at least that will tell me if there is something drastic wrong with a valve, if I can't get shims I have no options apart from what 227bhp has suggested which is to take the head off and get valve grinding if all is well with the head,valves and their seats
Peugeot didn't send this engine out from the factory with these bad clearances. I know that the vehicle this engine came out of has had engine trouble and this could well be a completely different engine and if not the main diesel pump has definitely been changed because the immobiliser is built into the Bosch pump and has armour around it fastened with security bolts, someone has spent many hours removing the security bolts and armour so that the vehicles original immobiliser could be fitted to this pump, I doubt very much that it is only the pump that has been changed as they are close on bulletproof and the 2 metal cylinder head water pipes look like new, perhaps it's had a new cylinder head fitted to a replacement engine and that would account for someone incorrectly shimming it. Perhaps this is all wishfull thinking but.....

Time will tell

[Penelope Stopit]

RizzoTheRat said:

Lotobear said:

...grind the shim on a surface grinder of oilstone to reduce it?

Don't shims have a hardened surface so shouldn't be ground down as there's then a risk of them wearing?


Are they an unusual size then? When I've done shims on my motorbikes I've had them delivered the next day from various e-bay seller as there seem to be 2 or 3 standard diameters for bike ones, so loads of people seem to be selling them.

Thanks
Unfortunately I don't have the diameter of the shims, if someone does know what other engines these shims are fitted to or their diameter it will be of great help to me

[Penelope Stopit]

RizzoTheRat said:

Is there a decent Peugeot/Citroen owners club around, you usually find a few techie members of owners clubs who'll know that kind of thing.

As an aside I'm impressed anyone managed to break an XUD9, mine was bullet proof and had 196k miles on the clock when the rest of the car gave up the ghost.

Thanks, I will take a look later

Yes they are a great engine, I saw a post about one that was close on 1 million miles

My XUD has done 180K but has been badly neglected by me, I am now paying the price for having no time to open the bonnet

[Penelope Stopit]

Mignon said:

The shims for the XUD are the same as for the petrol XU5 and XU9 models. 13.42mm diameter available in 0.05mm thickness increments, they locate in the valve spring cap under the lifter bucket. They are readily available from motor factors like Ferraris, AE Autoparts in packs of 4. It's been 10 years since I last bought any but they were only about £1 plus Vat to the trade per pack with 50% trade discount. Probably £3 to a punter by now. They're a fortune from a main stealer of course so don't even think of going there. I've seen £11 per single shim from them back in the day.

I've built dozens of these in my race engine building days and I recommend 0.2mm inlet and 0.3mm exhaust clearances. Stone cold obviously.

I'd be more worried about the inlet with only 0.1mm clearance than the exhaust with 0.4mm. In fact 0.4mm was the recommended clearance for the petrol models on the exhaust but it's the same valve location design in the diesel with the same thermal expansion considerations.

https://www.enginepartsuk.net/sites/default/files/...

Page 237.

Set pistons to half way down the bores. Mark camshaft orientation with tippex. Remove cam caps evenly and be very sure not to get them mixed up as to where they go back or which way round!!! Fit one wrong and you'll snap it when you tighten the nuts down and the head is scrap as the caps are unique to each head and can't be replaced. Take a photo first and note the numbers stamped into the caps. Remove lifter buckets and shims with a magnet and keep them all in the correct order. Calculate new shim thicknesses required and make a list of what you need. Rebuild and recheck clearances. Easy job. Any Citreon/Peugeot engine builder or reconditioner will have a big box of the things and might swap you for the sizes you need for beer money. I have a box of every size somewhere if I can still find it.

Thank you for all this information and your time spent looking for shims, on Saturday I will be going out on a shim search and taking the shims diameter measurement with me (Thanks again I was desperate for that diameter figure). I have been spoilt for choice in the past when working on engines in the UK, having moved on I now find myself struggling for the most simple of parts, I may break lucky on Saturday but am not banking on it, I don't want to be creating work for you but will contact you here if I am in deep trouble getting the replacement shims, I very much appreciate your offer

Working to your shared knowledge and experience I will be throwing the Peugeot tolerances out the door.... Inlets 15 +/- 5....Exhausts 30 +/- 5 and shimming the Inlets to 0.2mm and the exhausts to 0.3mm

I will take your instructions with me when I head off to remove the camshaft, I knew nothing about the cylinder head being a scrapper if a cap is damaged

Oops Sorry - the recipient doesn't permit emails

If I am stuck I won't be able to email you due to you not allowing emails

[Penelope Stopit]

Mignon
Ok. Thanks for that, I think I know but hadn't thought about it earlier

Edited by Penelope Stopit on Friday 18th May 13:28

[Penelope Stopit]

Steve_D said:

You will measure the clearances then measure the shim and calculate the shim you need for that position.
However, don't forget a shim that is no longer suitable for one position may now be the right size for another. With a bit of luck you may not need to buy/source too many.

Steve

Thanks
I know what you mean but I doubt me being that lucky
Mignon has moved me away from the manufacturers clearances with tolerances over to his recommended clearances, I will be shimming the Inlets to 0.2mm and the exhausts to 0.3mm
If I do find a place with shims they may have plenty of them and that will make life much easier

[Penelope Stopit]

Krikkitt
Thanks for the list

[Penelope Stopit]

Mignon said:

Usually once you've juggled the shims around to new positions you only need to buy 3 or 4 new sizes to shim all 8 valves properly. If you do your measurements and work out which sizes you need I'll check if I have them all and then you can send me a stamped addressed envelope with the old shims you don't need and a small beer donation and I'll swap them for the correct sizes and post it back.

As to clearances, remember that when you measure with feeler guages you're only measuring a tolerance not an actual size. So 0.2mm on an inlet means a 0.2mm guage will go in easily but a 0.25mm won't. So strictly speaking my recommendations mean 0.2 - 0.25mm on inlets and 0.3 - 0.35mm on exhausts. I wouldn't fret too much if you have to go 1 size over on these but don't go smaller. However if I have all the sizes you need you might as well get it spot on and then they stay in tolerance for tens of thousands of miles. It's rare to find wear in this system unless the tappets are wearing out and you'll see this if there's any dish on the tops. If so then the cam is fried too but I doubt you'll find that to be the case on a diesel. The early 1.6 petrol engines wore cams and lifters out like crazy but the 1.9's and later 1.6's used better quality materials and had no problem.

Thanks once again for all the information, I will contact you if I don't get things sorted here
" Buckets...I must remember to check the tops for wear"
I reckon I'll be very lucky if I'm able to re-use some shims
Much appreciated

[Penelope Stopit]

There are no shims to be had here, people are grinding the valve stems to get the clearances, I was shocked when witnessing the grinding method
I am now waiting for the delivery of a Micrometer, there are no sizes marked on the shims fitted

[Penelope Stopit]

Sardonicus said:

Penelope Stopit said:

There are no shims to be had here, people are grinding the valve stems to get the clearances, I was shocked when witnessing the grinding method
I am now waiting for the delivery of a Micrometer, there are no sizes marked on the shims fitted

Just see this post, XUD engines in my past experience never open/loosen valve clearances in use mileage etc a trait or robustness of bucket and shim system if you like the preferred valve gear on high revving motorcyle engines for good reason however they do close up with big mileages causing cold non-start issues (cured a few of those) shimming in situ is easy, my point is let me know what sizes you want and I will mike-em up and i'll send them to you not seen daylight for years at my workshop bless em got st loads of new old stock Triumph Stag ones too some one gave me many many moons ago

Edited by Sardonicus on Friday 25th May 09:15

Thank you very much for your offer, Mignon has also very kindly offered me shims, I am now spoilt for choice
I ordered a Micrometer today and will have it within 5 days, once I know what I need I will post back here or email you if that is ok

Edited by Penelope Stopit on Wednesday 2nd June 14:27

[Penelope Stopit]

I put my Micrometer to work earlier and have calculated what size shims I need to get the valve clearances very close to what Mignon has recommended
If someone has the following shims please post here

1 x 0906 52 01EP 2,875

1 x 0906 82 01EP 2,9

1 x 0906 53 01EP 2,950

2 x 0906 84 01EP 2,975

1 x 0906 54 01EP 3,025

1 x 0907 07 01EP 3,05

[Penelope Stopit]

Mignon said:

Looking at your original post you already have 2 inlets at 0.2mm clearance and 1 exhaust at 0.3mm which are all spot on so how the hell do you need 7 new shims when only 5 clearances need changing?

I re-measured before removing the camshaft and spent more time to be as accurate as I could be

First measurements were

1 Inlet 10 Minimum
2 Exhaust 30 Bang on
3 Exhaust 35 Maximum
4 inlet 15 Bang On
5 Inlet 20 Maximum
6 Exhaust 35 Maximum
7 Exhaust 40 **********XXXXX*************
8 Inlet 20 Maximum

Re-measuring

1 Inlet 10
2 Exhaust 35
3 Exhaust 35
4 Inlet 15
5 Inlet 25
6 Exhaust 35
7 Exhaust 40
8 Inlet 20

I can get within 0.02 of the aimed for tolerances for 4 valves by re-using what I've taken out and swapping them about and 1 valve is dead on

What I'm left with is 3 valves needing shims that I can't get close to as 2 of them need to be bigger than what I have left and I would need to rub one shim down by 0.1 for the other and I don't want to do that unless I have to

The following sizes will make a real good job of it all

1 x 0906 52 01EP 2,875

1 x 0906 82 01EP 2,9

1 x 0906 53 01EP 2,950

2 x 0906 84 01EP 2,975

1 x 0906 54 01EP 3,025

1 x 0907 07 01EP 3,05

But......if you know that getting within 0.02 of your earlier given figures is good enough then they are good enough for me
In which case, I need as close as possible to the following

2 x 2.98

1 x 2.91

I cant find the shims at this website https://www.enginepartsuk.net/camshafts-followers-...

A Google search for A E Auto parts sent me to here https://www.enginepartsuk.net/ae

When I search for shims at the above website I'm not getting a result, there is no big list of shim sizes and prices

Thanks for your time

What do you suggest?

I can't reply back to anything that you post tonight as it is later here and I am wrecked, I will visit back early in the morning

[Penelope Stopit]

Sardonicus said:

Penelope Stopit said:

There are no shims to be had here, people are grinding the valve stems to get the clearances, I was shocked when witnessing the grinding method
I am now waiting for the delivery of a Micrometer, there are no sizes marked on the shims fitted

Just see this post, XUD engines in my past experience never open/loosen valve clearances in use mileage etc a trait or robustness of bucket and shim system if you like the preferred valve gear on high revving motorcyle engines for good reason however they do close up with big mileages causing cold non-start issues (cured a few of those) shimming in situ is easy, my point is let me know what sizes you want and I will mike-em up and i'll send them to you not seen daylight for years at my workshop bless em got st loads of new old stock Triumph Stag ones too some one gave me many many moons ago

Edited by Sardonicus on Friday 25th May 09:15

Thank you Sardonicus for sorting out some shims for me

[Penelope Stopit]

Old Merc said:

I`ve only just noticed this thread. I have a complete assortment of Peugeot XU shims,probably three or four of every size available. All labeled in a Worth box. I used to have my own Peugeot repair workshop. Now I`m retired they are available for sale. PM me if you want. I`ve also got a couple of recon XU Petrol heads.

I have emailed you through PH