Engine Rebuild/New Engine - BMW M140i - Essex
Discussion
Hi all,
need an engine rebuild or replacement for my 2016 BMW M140i.
I am getting wildly different quotes:
Firm A is in Rainham, Essex. They quoted £5500 + VAT for replacement with a reconditioned, 0 km engine. However, they told me in their email of offer if they find that the current engine has, say, a crack in the head, it will cost more as they can't use the existing engine. Seem professional.
Firm B is also in Rainham. Not sure I liked the sales tone. Offers a used, but "low mileage" engine installed, £6000. Reconditioned at 0 miles much more. Awaiting info on whether the "low mileage" engine has warranty and whether this includes VAT or not. When I told them about Firm A he told me it cannot be, they would sell below cost, etc. Offered to send pics of engine to show he is kosher, not sure what's the use.
Firm C is *also* In Rainham. Lots of "you know what I mean". Immediately tells me my engine is 90% completely gone and must be thrown away. Reconditioned engine installed for £4000 including VAT, 12 months warranty, unlimited mileage. Strange conversation ("Do you offer a warranty?" "How much do you want? Yeah, I can give you twelve months"). Will send email tomorrow because he stops working at 3 pm. The cheapest but most colourful.
Firm D does not install (I think) new or used engines, they are an apparently reputed workshop in Dartford. They seem very professional on the phone, no hard sales talk and no "the other people are crooked". They refuse to give any indication of cost without seeing the car. They would try to work on the actual engine instead of installing a new one.
The issue: water infiltration in engine, some rust on the camshaft. Engine tries to start but doesn't, no idea if only a matter of changing gasket of cylinder head and working on piston-cylinders or whole engine to bethrown away, no way to check whatever I am told, either.
Any thoughts? First time I do this so I don't know what I am dealing with here, also no idea of fair prices in the market.
Thanks to all
Omobono
need an engine rebuild or replacement for my 2016 BMW M140i.
I am getting wildly different quotes:
Firm A is in Rainham, Essex. They quoted £5500 + VAT for replacement with a reconditioned, 0 km engine. However, they told me in their email of offer if they find that the current engine has, say, a crack in the head, it will cost more as they can't use the existing engine. Seem professional.
Firm B is also in Rainham. Not sure I liked the sales tone. Offers a used, but "low mileage" engine installed, £6000. Reconditioned at 0 miles much more. Awaiting info on whether the "low mileage" engine has warranty and whether this includes VAT or not. When I told them about Firm A he told me it cannot be, they would sell below cost, etc. Offered to send pics of engine to show he is kosher, not sure what's the use.
Firm C is *also* In Rainham. Lots of "you know what I mean". Immediately tells me my engine is 90% completely gone and must be thrown away. Reconditioned engine installed for £4000 including VAT, 12 months warranty, unlimited mileage. Strange conversation ("Do you offer a warranty?" "How much do you want? Yeah, I can give you twelve months"). Will send email tomorrow because he stops working at 3 pm. The cheapest but most colourful.
Firm D does not install (I think) new or used engines, they are an apparently reputed workshop in Dartford. They seem very professional on the phone, no hard sales talk and no "the other people are crooked". They refuse to give any indication of cost without seeing the car. They would try to work on the actual engine instead of installing a new one.
The issue: water infiltration in engine, some rust on the camshaft. Engine tries to start but doesn't, no idea if only a matter of changing gasket of cylinder head and working on piston-cylinders or whole engine to bethrown away, no way to check whatever I am told, either.
Any thoughts? First time I do this so I don't know what I am dealing with here, also no idea of fair prices in the market.
Thanks to all
Omobono
Hi,
I posted on the matter in April. Engine started to stutter and vibrate, then all was fine for a week and I thought of an electronic gremlin, then it did it again. I was at BMW and their idea is to follow a "procedure" and exchange everything until they find the issue, they charge you £180/hour for the privilege. They wanted to give me a new cat for £1200 but I said no. I drive car at home again, but next day engine goes off and car does not start anymore. Car towed to my parking space. Mobile mechanic comes in and disconnects cat from engine as if it is the cat that is clogged, the engine will start regularly (BMW does not have it in their procedures).
No dice. He then looks at the engine and finds water and signs of rust in the headcam. Likely the head gasket failed. Biggest issue here is, as I see it, whether in these cases it is common and feasible to make an engine rebuild or the damage has extended to the head and I likely need a new engine. I love the car though I drive very little (3000 miles a year, less with the pandemic), it's my forever car as I love manual cars and want to keep this all through the age of automatic/electric cars and to my old age.
I can spend if it's necessary, but I want to avoid being exploited because finance guy/suit and tie/"he will buy whatever I tell him". I don't have a princely income but I save £3000 a month, I will make the sacrifice and "cry once" (0 mile engine) if I have to and it helps to keep the car I love for a long time, but needs to know I am not being taken advantage of.
I can't gauge at all how likely it is that the head is cracked/the rebuild way is practicable. The car was used properly and never mistreated, but I drove for a while (eg from BMW dealer to home) with the engine stuttering when I thought it was the cat clogged, with some revving of the engine .
I posted on the matter in April. Engine started to stutter and vibrate, then all was fine for a week and I thought of an electronic gremlin, then it did it again. I was at BMW and their idea is to follow a "procedure" and exchange everything until they find the issue, they charge you £180/hour for the privilege. They wanted to give me a new cat for £1200 but I said no. I drive car at home again, but next day engine goes off and car does not start anymore. Car towed to my parking space. Mobile mechanic comes in and disconnects cat from engine as if it is the cat that is clogged, the engine will start regularly (BMW does not have it in their procedures).
No dice. He then looks at the engine and finds water and signs of rust in the headcam. Likely the head gasket failed. Biggest issue here is, as I see it, whether in these cases it is common and feasible to make an engine rebuild or the damage has extended to the head and I likely need a new engine. I love the car though I drive very little (3000 miles a year, less with the pandemic), it's my forever car as I love manual cars and want to keep this all through the age of automatic/electric cars and to my old age.
I can spend if it's necessary, but I want to avoid being exploited because finance guy/suit and tie/"he will buy whatever I tell him". I don't have a princely income but I save £3000 a month, I will make the sacrifice and "cry once" (0 mile engine) if I have to and it helps to keep the car I love for a long time, but needs to know I am not being taken advantage of.
I can't gauge at all how likely it is that the head is cracked/the rebuild way is practicable. The car was used properly and never mistreated, but I drove for a while (eg from BMW dealer to home) with the engine stuttering when I thought it was the cat clogged, with some revving of the engine .
Edited by Omobono on Thursday 10th June 16:13
Hi and thanks for your answer.
No overheating.
Problem manifested with vibration to the engine, transmitted to gear stick. Message went on saying "you can keep driving, drivetrain issue, have car seen".
Again, at a point the problem disappeared (the light too) so I thought it might be a gremlin, then it reappeared again and it was worse.
No overheating.
Problem manifested with vibration to the engine, transmitted to gear stick. Message went on saying "you can keep driving, drivetrain issue, have car seen".
Again, at a point the problem disappeared (the light too) so I thought it might be a gremlin, then it reappeared again and it was worse.
Repairing or replacing the cylinder head with the engine in situ is much less invasive and expensive. I share your distrust of ‘refurbished’ engine suppliers.
Thanks: so if the cylinder head is gone it can be replaced? They will not tell me "this engine is gone and you have to throw it away"? This would be very important to me as at this point I think I would have the certainty that the engine can be remade without spending 5-6-7 grand... Can you confirm? (at least as life generally goes?)
Thanks: so if the cylinder head is gone it can be replaced? They will not tell me "this engine is gone and you have to throw it away"? This would be very important to me as at this point I think I would have the certainty that the engine can be remade without spending 5-6-7 grand... Can you confirm? (at least as life generally goes?)
kiethton said:
If the Dartford garage is Crago's they've done a lot of work for me in the past (inc a gearbox rebuild etc on my E39 540i) and know they regularly do what looks like major engine surgery from the pictures - they'd be my go-to as a quality outfit who should stand behind what they have done.
Ah, you might not be very far from the truth there! I spoke to them on the phone several times and, again, they are the (only) rebuild option I am considering because of the professional impression they made. My main concerns is always that someone would profit from my relative inexperience and white collar job. Your mention of them in such terms is, actually, extremely encouraging. CG2020UK said:
Omobono have you considered maybe just declaring it as an insurance write off and picking up another one?
I’d imagine it would be significantly cheaper.
Not sure what you are meaning? I’d imagine it would be significantly cheaper.
I have a comp insurance, but I doubt it covers what is, it seems, act of God on the engine. No one went against me, I did not go against anyone. I will not declare or do anything even remotely wrong or false.
EDIT: I see now you had already answered. OK, that option is officially out
Where are things now ? Does the vehicle start ? run ? fly ? nothing ? Is it in one piece ?
And signs of water/rust in the "headcam" ??? You have not mentioned the engine using any water or overheating ? ( and I'll accept "headcam" as a misunderstanding somewhere )
Thanks, here is in detail:
1) One fine morning engine starts to work irregularly, vibrations on gear stick. Engine runs otherwise well. Light goes up in the cickpit, "you can keep driving, drivetrain issue, have car seen".
2) issue disappears in the following days, gradually, until no light and no vibrations anymore.
3) Issue reappears and it is worse.
4) I go to BMW. BMW says what is not (timing, say), and wants to charge me £1200 for a new cat, just in case cat is clogged. Then they would go on following their "procedure", until they find what is wrong, and changing everything with new parts in the process, at £186 pound an hour. Insane.
5) I drive home with the car. I rev the engine as at this point I think that the cat is clogged, which BMW had given as the probable cause (sulphur smell). The engine is oveheated when I am home, but this is not surprising as I had revved the engine (not like a madman, but more than the usual). It's also not really bad, it was only 14 miles from the BMW workshop to home.
6) I drive to the station for work the following morning, everything appears fine. No or very little vibrations, engine good. Light does not show. I think the cat is declogging. I had ordered a cat declogging product and decided I would wait for that to work his magic before deciding what steps are necessary (perhaps a new cat, but not from BMW).
7) On the afternoon, engine stutters massively and then stops and refuses to start again, one mile from home. Engine tries to start but does not manage to do it, it's as if only 3 cylinders would try and the others wouldn't collaborate.
8) Car is towed home and a mobile mechanic called. The mechanic disconnects the cat from the engine, reasoning that if the issue is the clogged cat the engine will run smoothly and we will then care for a new cat. Alas, it does not happen. Even with cat disconnected, it's the same story. Engine tries to start, but it's stuck.
9) Mobile mechanic removes the plastic cover of the engine and looks inside from the oil lid. What he finds (and shows me) is a sort of "oil cream" which, we think, is due to emulsion of water and oil. Also, traces of rust on what, in Italy, we call "albero a camme" (I think it's camshaft, I have looked now...). So what he says is: this is not the cat, this is water in the engine, possibly from the head gasket, which made it more and more difficult for the engine to run due to the emulsified oil.
I think the diagnose is quite correct. I think the cylinder tried to work in increasingly more difficult conditions (possibly sometime better, sometime worse due to engine and outer temperature) until it did not go anymore. As to the damage, I reflect that I revved the engine to the point of getting some heating (not too much), but certainly it did not do the engine any favours. I have no idea if the "testata" (cylinder head"?) is compromised, I'd say likely not, but I think the cylinders will have to be redone (we call it "rettifica") and the head likely too.
At this point, fearing a huge bill anyway, I started toying with the idea of getting a reconditioned engine and be done with it, then I want to keep this car for a long time. Hence, the calls and options that I described in my original post.
So at the moment the issues I have are:
1) how likely it is that the damage done is such that the engine has to, more or less, be thrown away? If this is the case, I think the new engine may make sense. If this is unlikely to be the case, I'd go for a rebuild at the reputable shop in Dartford.
2) How likely is it that I go for a rebuild and the reputable shop tells me "sorry pal, you drove with emulsified oil in the engine, now it's all screwed and we need a new one". At that point, I would likely have been better off with the reconditioned engine from scratch.
And signs of water/rust in the "headcam" ??? You have not mentioned the engine using any water or overheating ? ( and I'll accept "headcam" as a misunderstanding somewhere )
Thanks, here is in detail:
1) One fine morning engine starts to work irregularly, vibrations on gear stick. Engine runs otherwise well. Light goes up in the cickpit, "you can keep driving, drivetrain issue, have car seen".
2) issue disappears in the following days, gradually, until no light and no vibrations anymore.
3) Issue reappears and it is worse.
4) I go to BMW. BMW says what is not (timing, say), and wants to charge me £1200 for a new cat, just in case cat is clogged. Then they would go on following their "procedure", until they find what is wrong, and changing everything with new parts in the process, at £186 pound an hour. Insane.
5) I drive home with the car. I rev the engine as at this point I think that the cat is clogged, which BMW had given as the probable cause (sulphur smell). The engine is oveheated when I am home, but this is not surprising as I had revved the engine (not like a madman, but more than the usual). It's also not really bad, it was only 14 miles from the BMW workshop to home.
6) I drive to the station for work the following morning, everything appears fine. No or very little vibrations, engine good. Light does not show. I think the cat is declogging. I had ordered a cat declogging product and decided I would wait for that to work his magic before deciding what steps are necessary (perhaps a new cat, but not from BMW).
7) On the afternoon, engine stutters massively and then stops and refuses to start again, one mile from home. Engine tries to start but does not manage to do it, it's as if only 3 cylinders would try and the others wouldn't collaborate.
8) Car is towed home and a mobile mechanic called. The mechanic disconnects the cat from the engine, reasoning that if the issue is the clogged cat the engine will run smoothly and we will then care for a new cat. Alas, it does not happen. Even with cat disconnected, it's the same story. Engine tries to start, but it's stuck.
9) Mobile mechanic removes the plastic cover of the engine and looks inside from the oil lid. What he finds (and shows me) is a sort of "oil cream" which, we think, is due to emulsion of water and oil. Also, traces of rust on what, in Italy, we call "albero a camme" (I think it's camshaft, I have looked now...). So what he says is: this is not the cat, this is water in the engine, possibly from the head gasket, which made it more and more difficult for the engine to run due to the emulsified oil.
I think the diagnose is quite correct. I think the cylinder tried to work in increasingly more difficult conditions (possibly sometime better, sometime worse due to engine and outer temperature) until it did not go anymore. As to the damage, I reflect that I revved the engine to the point of getting some heating (not too much), but certainly it did not do the engine any favours. I have no idea if the "testata" (cylinder head"?) is compromised, I'd say likely not, but I think the cylinders will have to be redone (we call it "rettifica") and the head likely too.
At this point, fearing a huge bill anyway, I started toying with the idea of getting a reconditioned engine and be done with it, then I want to keep this car for a long time. Hence, the calls and options that I described in my original post.
So at the moment the issues I have are:
1) how likely it is that the damage done is such that the engine has to, more or less, be thrown away? If this is the case, I think the new engine may make sense. If this is unlikely to be the case, I'd go for a rebuild at the reputable shop in Dartford.
2) How likely is it that I go for a rebuild and the reputable shop tells me "sorry pal, you drove with emulsified oil in the engine, now it's all screwed and we need a new one". At that point, I would likely have been better off with the reconditioned engine from scratch.
Edited by Omobono on Friday 11th June 10:17
Thanks to all again.
Spoke to Crago's again this afternoon. They said the "creamy" quality of the oil could be due to the (pandemic-related) extremely low use of the car in the last year (incidentally, same was given as the cause for the clogging of the cat, if the cat had been really clogged). If I am very lucky (I might not be) it could be some sensor or other, which could also explain why the car had vibrations, then it hadn't, then it had again.
After a mature reflection, and considering that I think I can trust Crago's, I have decided that I will not go for the radical solution before positively knowing that something really bad is going on. If something really bad is going on, I hope that Crago's will be able to find a solution that does not cost more than the alternative of going for a reconditioned engine straight away.
In the end, I am not an expert but it seems difficult to me to think that I have cracked the head and if yes, I seem to understand (nobody has confirmed or denied here) that this does not mean that the entire engine must go down the drain. If the head is not cracked, I am confident letting Crago's repair whatever has to be repaired will be better for my wallet than a o miles reconditioned engine, my engine has less than 40,000 miles and I actually hopes it gives me many more.
.
So it's going to be Crago's and fingers crossed, big time.
Spoke to Crago's again this afternoon. They said the "creamy" quality of the oil could be due to the (pandemic-related) extremely low use of the car in the last year (incidentally, same was given as the cause for the clogging of the cat, if the cat had been really clogged). If I am very lucky (I might not be) it could be some sensor or other, which could also explain why the car had vibrations, then it hadn't, then it had again.
After a mature reflection, and considering that I think I can trust Crago's, I have decided that I will not go for the radical solution before positively knowing that something really bad is going on. If something really bad is going on, I hope that Crago's will be able to find a solution that does not cost more than the alternative of going for a reconditioned engine straight away.
In the end, I am not an expert but it seems difficult to me to think that I have cracked the head and if yes, I seem to understand (nobody has confirmed or denied here) that this does not mean that the entire engine must go down the drain. If the head is not cracked, I am confident letting Crago's repair whatever has to be repaired will be better for my wallet than a o miles reconditioned engine, my engine has less than 40,000 miles and I actually hopes it gives me many more.
.
So it's going to be Crago's and fingers crossed, big time.
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