A DPF thread. New DPF fitted, car will not recognise it.
Discussion
Hi and thanks for reading.
UK. Honda CRV, 2013 2.2 iDTEC diesel. 93,500 miles. I want to sell the otherwise excellent car but the codes are causing problems. Right now, I have two warning lights showing on the dash of the car.
1. Diesel Particulate Filter blocked.
2. PGM-FI (Glow plug warning).
The DDPF warning has been appearing for over a year. It's been to several garages and now a Honda main dealer and no one has managed to permanently get rid of the warning light. Early in the year they got rid of it for a while by cleaning in various ways but it kept coming back. Now the car has a new DPF and it still won't clear.
Scanning the system with a basic OBD2 plug in reader and the Torque app on my phone shows NO fault codes. (In fact the PGMFI light wasn't showing until I DID a scan for faults. THEN it came on!)
The filter is NOT blocked. The car has a new Honda OEM DPF fitted by a Honda main dealer and only has a couple of miles on it. It also has a new Front Exhaust Temperature Sensor (37810R3LG01) and a replacement USED pressure sensor (37861R3LG00). The connecting pipe has been soaked in EGR cleaner internally and blown out with high pressure air and does not appear to be blocked.
Despite all this the computer KEEPS SHOWING the blocked DPF light and putting the car into limp mode. This means it will not pass it's MOT on emissions and will become not legal to drive. Therefore scrap metal.
PLEASE, what could be telling the ECU that there is a fault? The only other sensor is the Air/Fuel ratio sensor but that doesn't have any relation to DPF blockages does it? I wondered about a wiring fault but if a wire was broken to one of the sensors the sensor would show up as a fault on the scans. Is anyone aware of wiring faults that occur?
EGR valves and crap in the manifolds are a possible cause of a DPF actually getting blocked but shouldn't be an issue here, especially as a garage was supposed to have cleaned them recently.
Any ideas please? Thank you.
UK. Honda CRV, 2013 2.2 iDTEC diesel. 93,500 miles. I want to sell the otherwise excellent car but the codes are causing problems. Right now, I have two warning lights showing on the dash of the car.
1. Diesel Particulate Filter blocked.
2. PGM-FI (Glow plug warning).
The DDPF warning has been appearing for over a year. It's been to several garages and now a Honda main dealer and no one has managed to permanently get rid of the warning light. Early in the year they got rid of it for a while by cleaning in various ways but it kept coming back. Now the car has a new DPF and it still won't clear.
Scanning the system with a basic OBD2 plug in reader and the Torque app on my phone shows NO fault codes. (In fact the PGMFI light wasn't showing until I DID a scan for faults. THEN it came on!)
The filter is NOT blocked. The car has a new Honda OEM DPF fitted by a Honda main dealer and only has a couple of miles on it. It also has a new Front Exhaust Temperature Sensor (37810R3LG01) and a replacement USED pressure sensor (37861R3LG00). The connecting pipe has been soaked in EGR cleaner internally and blown out with high pressure air and does not appear to be blocked.
Despite all this the computer KEEPS SHOWING the blocked DPF light and putting the car into limp mode. This means it will not pass it's MOT on emissions and will become not legal to drive. Therefore scrap metal.
PLEASE, what could be telling the ECU that there is a fault? The only other sensor is the Air/Fuel ratio sensor but that doesn't have any relation to DPF blockages does it? I wondered about a wiring fault but if a wire was broken to one of the sensors the sensor would show up as a fault on the scans. Is anyone aware of wiring faults that occur?
EGR valves and crap in the manifolds are a possible cause of a DPF actually getting blocked but shouldn't be an issue here, especially as a garage was supposed to have cleaned them recently.
Any ideas please? Thank you.
Evening, thanks for the replies.
As always, there is a much longer story behind this, but I didn't want to bore you. I purchased the car on Saturday the 14th of March, 2020. It was clean and drove well and I was happy with the purchase. However, during the subsequent year of ownership one fault code kept recurring and despite taking it to three separate garages, no one was able to fix it. The DPF warning light kept coming on saying the filter was blocked. At first I assumed it was my short distance driving.
On the 21st September 2020 the DPF warning light shows for the first time. I take it to the Honda main dealer. They do a Forced Regeneration on the system and it clears the fault.
On the 11th March 2021 the DPF warning light shows again. I take it to a local independent garage this time who clean the DPF with chemicals and clean the entire emissions system with a ‘Hydrogen Clean”. I still don't know if this is snake oil or a useful action. Again, it clears the fault.
Now on the 12th April, the DPF warning appears for the third time. Getting fed up with this I research for a DPF specialist and go to a company about 20 miles away. They do a diagnosis and advise that the filter is likely blocked up with ash and that they can wash it out with a specialist machine, a DCS-20 DPF Cleaning System. It's on You Tube. This will bring the filter back to as new with almost no ash left inside it. I agreed and they washed it out on the 21st April. However, the fault code did not clear this time. As they could not clear the fault they did not charge me. They advised it would appear that a new DPF was necessary. However an after market filter is unavailable for this car.
I decided that if a new filter was to be fitted, I would get it fitted by an expert and get a good warranty so I contacted the Honda main dealer again and arranged for the new DPF to be fitted. On the 11th of May it went into Honda’s. They had it for 5 days and even after fitting a new DPF, new sensor they couldn't get the ECU to clear the fault. Honda UK at Bracknell told them to do a compression test. I agreed and that is when the PGMFI light came on, they started to remove a glow plug to do a test and couldn't without it breaking. An independent garage has since looked and said they can see no damage to the plugs but that plug 2 is showing an open circuit.
I am currently talking to my home insurance about possible legal action.
After receiving the car back with the warning STILL on, I took matters into my own hands at last. If the cars computer thinks the filter is blocked it must be getting the message from somewhere. There is a sensor on the car that is connected to the filter by a rubber and metal pipe. The sensor and wiring were undamaged. I blew the connecting pipe out with compressed air. After reconnecting the sensor, THE FAULT CLEARED! But after just about 2 miles it has come back on again. Since then I replaced the pressure sensor with a used one from a breakers but that made no difference. And, of course, I have blown the pipe out again numerous times and cleaned the sensor contacts with electrical contact cleaner.
SO, I said it was a long back story. Anyhow, WHAT can be causing the filter to show blocked still? Please?
As always, there is a much longer story behind this, but I didn't want to bore you. I purchased the car on Saturday the 14th of March, 2020. It was clean and drove well and I was happy with the purchase. However, during the subsequent year of ownership one fault code kept recurring and despite taking it to three separate garages, no one was able to fix it. The DPF warning light kept coming on saying the filter was blocked. At first I assumed it was my short distance driving.
On the 21st September 2020 the DPF warning light shows for the first time. I take it to the Honda main dealer. They do a Forced Regeneration on the system and it clears the fault.
On the 11th March 2021 the DPF warning light shows again. I take it to a local independent garage this time who clean the DPF with chemicals and clean the entire emissions system with a ‘Hydrogen Clean”. I still don't know if this is snake oil or a useful action. Again, it clears the fault.
Now on the 12th April, the DPF warning appears for the third time. Getting fed up with this I research for a DPF specialist and go to a company about 20 miles away. They do a diagnosis and advise that the filter is likely blocked up with ash and that they can wash it out with a specialist machine, a DCS-20 DPF Cleaning System. It's on You Tube. This will bring the filter back to as new with almost no ash left inside it. I agreed and they washed it out on the 21st April. However, the fault code did not clear this time. As they could not clear the fault they did not charge me. They advised it would appear that a new DPF was necessary. However an after market filter is unavailable for this car.
I decided that if a new filter was to be fitted, I would get it fitted by an expert and get a good warranty so I contacted the Honda main dealer again and arranged for the new DPF to be fitted. On the 11th of May it went into Honda’s. They had it for 5 days and even after fitting a new DPF, new sensor they couldn't get the ECU to clear the fault. Honda UK at Bracknell told them to do a compression test. I agreed and that is when the PGMFI light came on, they started to remove a glow plug to do a test and couldn't without it breaking. An independent garage has since looked and said they can see no damage to the plugs but that plug 2 is showing an open circuit.
I am currently talking to my home insurance about possible legal action.
After receiving the car back with the warning STILL on, I took matters into my own hands at last. If the cars computer thinks the filter is blocked it must be getting the message from somewhere. There is a sensor on the car that is connected to the filter by a rubber and metal pipe. The sensor and wiring were undamaged. I blew the connecting pipe out with compressed air. After reconnecting the sensor, THE FAULT CLEARED! But after just about 2 miles it has come back on again. Since then I replaced the pressure sensor with a used one from a breakers but that made no difference. And, of course, I have blown the pipe out again numerous times and cleaned the sensor contacts with electrical contact cleaner.
SO, I said it was a long back story. Anyhow, WHAT can be causing the filter to show blocked still? Please?
stevieturbo said:
Did it really need another thread ?
Yes, who reads the tail ends of old threads? What's up, running out of threads? stevieturbo said:
Correct. I parked it, no lights. Started it another day, lights. Swore a little...stevieturbo said:
Find a competent garage..
Eeny meeny miny moe...stevieturbo said:
The primary way the ecu will determine whether the DPF is blocked is via the pressure readings across it from the pressure sensor. So what is it saying ?
I only have an android Torque app which doesn't show it. Every time I want someone with a good meter to look it'll be a minimum hours labour. Cost has already piled up beyond what's reasonable. If you have the tools wanna buy it? :/stevemcs said:
Has no2 glow plug been replaced yet
No one wants to touch it just now. 2 garages, Honda dealer and an independent both say they feel it will break if attempted to be removed. Then it's head off to retrieve the bits, mega money, for me, and too much spent already. Cheaper to get a used engine. Or just flog it for repair to someone with the tools and experience.LordLoveLength said:
Unless you’ve got a decent diagnostic tester that can show live data readings for dpf pressure and soot / ash content you will be playing parts darts and get nowhere.
That's where I am, sadly.LordLoveLength said:
Did the Honda dealer reset the ecu and tell it a new filter has been fitted? Just fitting a dpf may not be enough.
They say they did, and updated the ecu software to the latest version. Their MASTER Technician even consulted with Honda UK. This is where I am.LordLoveLength said:
DPFs fill up with soot which gets burned off in a regeneration, and ash, which does not.
The ecu calculates ash accumulation and when it thinks it’s full the light comes on.
You need to tell it a new dpf is fitted to reset the counter.
I understand this. I have no tools to talk to the ecu. Technicians cost £90 a pop. The ecu calculates ash accumulation and when it thinks it’s full the light comes on.
You need to tell it a new dpf is fitted to reset the counter.
LordLoveLength said:
Get some decent Honda diagnostics and look at the data! It may be the ecu is over reading a valid pressure sensor reading.
Please, point me to something I should look at. What's affordable? Honda don't even release the workshop manual to us in the public let alone affordable diagnostic tools. And for a one off use, I don't own a garage to use it on anything else afterwards. What do you think would help me in this?Thanks.
Chris32345 said:
Has the ECU been told da new dog was fitted?
I prefer this version of your posts. Hi and thanks for the response. Honda say they have done so, and have also put the latest version of the cars software on. I cannot think that even the most illiterate Tech would fail to do that, especially as they involved Bracknell.
stevieturbo said:
Muldoonsghost said:
No one wants to touch it just now. 2 garages, Honda dealer and an independent both say they feel it will break if attempted to be removed. Then it's head off to retrieve the bits, mega money, for me, and too much spent already. Cheaper to get a used engine. Or just flog it for repair to someone with the tools and experience.
b
ks. There are plenty of guys who specialise in removing such items. And buying a used engine is a whole other minefield and huge expense, just to go round in circles.You need to be searching for a competent garage, maybe even tell people what part of the planet you're from and they might be able to reccommend.
It seems, as said from the start and as so many threads go....you've been attacked by utterly incompetent garages and for the most part main dealers. Which is beyond disgraceful.
Or just cut your losses and sell it.
drdino said:
Has it been scanned with a proper diagnostic tool? If so, what DTCs is it showing?
Showing my ignorance, what are DTC's? I don't have, as has been discussed, a 'proper' diagnostic tool and it costs more money each time another go is had by a garage. I just have the Torque app on an eBay OBDII Bluetooth connection.stevemcs said:
Given it’s had a new dpf the soot and ash content make no difference. Something is stopping it from a regen.
Indeed. This link says
https://www.injector-removal-service.co.uk/seized-...
"Further more, more recent revisions or “regulation requirements” to diesel engines mean these vehicles are now fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters, which, for maintenance purposes, require the glow plugs to be turned on at certain “regeneration” modes while the engine is running increasing combustion temperatures which works as an effective method to clean the exhaust DPF."
blank said:
If you can find the information out you can add "custom PIDs" in Torque to read things like DPF pressure difference, Ash Content etc.
Have a hunt around on owner forums as someone may have done this before for your engine.
Thanks, interesting. I'll do that later this evening. Have a hunt around on owner forums as someone may have done this before for your engine.
shakindog said:
Nothing much to add except both Steve’s know their onions and turbo definitely does.
So please listen to their advise as it’s not costing you a penny so you can then make a better informed decision.
I’m no master tech but you’ve had good sound advice by far more knowledgeable folk than others including me
I agree, this place (Piston heads) has many great contributors and I appreciate each word I get from them. So please listen to their advise as it’s not costing you a penny so you can then make a better informed decision.
I’m no master tech but you’ve had good sound advice by far more knowledgeable folk than others including me
stevemcs said:
It doesn't matter if only one glowplug has failed, the car see's a fault and thats enough to stop it from carrying out a regen
As I posted earlier a website says..."Further more, more recent revisions or “regulation requirements” to diesel engines mean these vehicles are now fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters, which, for maintenance purposes, require the glow plugs to be turned on at certain “regeneration” modes while the engine is running increasing combustion temperatures which works as an effective method to clean the exhaust DPF."
stevieturbo said:
The specialoist comapnies remove broken injectors and glow plugs...it's kinda what they do and why they're specialists at it.
If you're just paying someone to try and change them that's a different matter. But it is just a reality that some will be stuck and can break. And in turn, why specialists exist to remove them in-situ.
And as for Bearman, yes, most modern cars can easily identify which glow plug is an issue as they are not simply all wired together. In fact that's very rare now. They might be in pairs, or individually and PWM controlled for faster heat up as well as so they can operate them under other conditions than simply cold starts.
I'm on the South Coast, near Brighton. Local garages don't want to know (so far) and the 'specialists' don't seem to cover this area. Well, one London company said they would come down to remove a broken injector for... £450 each. Still searching for a specialist.If you're just paying someone to try and change them that's a different matter. But it is just a reality that some will be stuck and can break. And in turn, why specialists exist to remove them in-situ.
And as for Bearman, yes, most modern cars can easily identify which glow plug is an issue as they are not simply all wired together. In fact that's very rare now. They might be in pairs, or individually and PWM controlled for faster heat up as well as so they can operate them under other conditions than simply cold starts.
stevemcs said:
You need to ask them, but normally they drill them out
But at extra, unknown, cost. My worry is I ask for all 4 to be replaced. Maybe 2 of them break. Then they want another £300 each to repair the broken 2 on top of the money already spent and I have no choice as the engine doesn't run. The price of owning a car I guess.My thanks to you all for your contributions. It now seems as if the glow plugs have likely been an issue for some time. There is a hand written note on the top of an old invoice for trying to cure 'fumes in the cabin' saying "glow plugs". It seems to be common knowledge in some places that they are needed for regen, but not at a Honda main dealer? Or another large (5+lifts and more bays) garage I visited?
Anyway, I'm soaking the plugs in Liquid Wrench daily and I'm looking for someone to come in and replace all 4. if THAT doesn't allow the DPF to regen then I'll start by screaming. Loudly...
So, to continue searching.
Anyway, I'm soaking the plugs in Liquid Wrench daily and I'm looking for someone to come in and replace all 4. if THAT doesn't allow the DPF to regen then I'll start by screaming. Loudly...
So, to continue searching.
You can't make it up.
The car has been at a workshop for a little over a week and they have just called. Remember, the error diagnosed by the ecu was number 2 glow plug open circuit.
Number 2 plug has been replaced with no need to drill. New plug is fitted. The PGM-F1 light is STILL on.
All glow plugs measured on an ohms meter. All 5 (including the new and old one that is) measure the same within tolerance reading. Powered up outside of the vehicle the old number 2 plug behaves as if new.
Wiring from plugs to a sensor / control unit / something have been checked and look good.
The control unit is unavailable from Honda. Would have been £90 or so but it is not a backorder item, it is totally unavailable!
I doubt if anyone is still reading here but fk ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The car has been at a workshop for a little over a week and they have just called. Remember, the error diagnosed by the ecu was number 2 glow plug open circuit.
Number 2 plug has been replaced with no need to drill. New plug is fitted. The PGM-F1 light is STILL on.
All glow plugs measured on an ohms meter. All 5 (including the new and old one that is) measure the same within tolerance reading. Powered up outside of the vehicle the old number 2 plug behaves as if new.
Wiring from plugs to a sensor / control unit / something have been checked and look good.
The control unit is unavailable from Honda. Would have been £90 or so but it is not a backorder item, it is totally unavailable!
I doubt if anyone is still reading here but f
k ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Afternoon Castleman.
In my case the fault was finally diagnosed as a faulty fuel injector. The injector was jammed open, so it was pouring diesel into the cylinder. This was cooling the cylinder and the glow plug it seems, making the glow plug read an error. I had the set of injectors replaced and bang, all faults cleared and the car was running like out of the factory! I spent money on a new DPF that wasn't needed, lots of DPF cleaning, diagnoses, replacing sensors... including at a Honda MAIN DEALER and it was a little back street company that sorted it. I ended up wasting as much money as the car was worth in the end.
In your case it may be the same, maybe not, but this was my result. I wish you luck.
In my case the fault was finally diagnosed as a faulty fuel injector. The injector was jammed open, so it was pouring diesel into the cylinder. This was cooling the cylinder and the glow plug it seems, making the glow plug read an error. I had the set of injectors replaced and bang, all faults cleared and the car was running like out of the factory! I spent money on a new DPF that wasn't needed, lots of DPF cleaning, diagnoses, replacing sensors... including at a Honda MAIN DEALER and it was a little back street company that sorted it. I ended up wasting as much money as the car was worth in the end.
In your case it may be the same, maybe not, but this was my result. I wish you luck.
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