Fuel lines and fittings
Discussion
Caution, old person alert!!
For the past 52 years I've used jubilee type or side bolted type clamps on fuel line, all probably on low pressure carburettor engines.
Now I'm faced with this, high pressure throttle bodies, and fancy modern stuff.
Can anyone advise on these fittings? Are they re-useable? How do they work, is there inserts and olives like some modern domestic plumbing? I'm wanting to tidy up the arrangement rather than look like a three legged spider.
Thanks
For the past 52 years I've used jubilee type or side bolted type clamps on fuel line, all probably on low pressure carburettor engines.
Now I'm faced with this, high pressure throttle bodies, and fancy modern stuff.
Can anyone advise on these fittings? Are they re-useable? How do they work, is there inserts and olives like some modern domestic plumbing? I'm wanting to tidy up the arrangement rather than look like a three legged spider.
Thanks
Thanks Stevie, agree about the hose clips, would never use worm type, the curve of the circumference is so tight they can't grip successfully and tend to strip the threads. Have used the screw type you highlighted.
Have to decide which option to use, and yes apart from the sprawling fuel lines, that 4 way block looks clunky.
Have to decide which option to use, and yes apart from the sprawling fuel lines, that 4 way block looks clunky.
TwinKam said:
When are you going to reveal what you've just bought, Tony? I'm thinking TVR with that Essex in there...
Sorry TwinKam, I started a readers car thread about it. Gilbern Invader Mark 3, with Emerald ECU and Jenveys etc plus Atlas & LSD & Ford 5 Speed and uprated discs all round and an interior that need totally redoing. Once I get the damn thing started.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Finally got a sign of life this afternoon but 30 seconds of rough running, spitting back through the now open "trumpets" it died and won't restart. Plugs soaking again.
What's everyone's way of drying out a car? The plugs (iridium) were given a clean, tested and a hefty spark on all 6, the cylinders left open, spun over a few times then plugs in and away we went, for 30 seconds.......
Patience wearing thin as is the skin on the back of m hand, didn't lose this much when I went to blood doners.....
Edited by Skyedriver on Tuesday 21st March 15:06
stevieturbo said:
And whilst it is not a book I rate particularly highly myself, in this instance it will likely be of use to you.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Management-Optimis...
Came with the car....................https://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Management-Optimis...
Dave Walker is I believe the Emerald ECU guy.
Spent an age looking through the book trying to decipher what the two electrical connections to one of the intake "modules" are. Any ideas.
We're getting off track on my original post now but "straw clutching" in progress.
stevieturbo said:
You will not clean such plugs, you will most likely harm them.
Fit cheap plugs. If the plugs have been drowned, consider them scrap and do not try and start the car on them until you know 100% the car is running right.
Unless the plugs are incredibly difficult to access on such a car, and will endure a very long life in-situ, fancy precious metal plugs are pretty much a complete waste of money
There was a purple one of those cars for sale a while back, unfinished project. Actually a nice looking car, I'd never heard of them before that.
However...in other photos....that intake......I'm rather horrified.
I hadn't realised about those iridium plugs, once cleaned with a wire brush they spark merrily, but wet easily. Will invest in some basic NGK plugs.Fit cheap plugs. If the plugs have been drowned, consider them scrap and do not try and start the car on them until you know 100% the car is running right.
Unless the plugs are incredibly difficult to access on such a car, and will endure a very long life in-situ, fancy precious metal plugs are pretty much a complete waste of money
There was a purple one of those cars for sale a while back, unfinished project. Actually a nice looking car, I'd never heard of them before that.
However...in other photos....that intake......I'm rather horrified.
They're a bit fiddly to get back in until you "get" the angle and inclination. A damn side more difficult with the 6 legged octopus in place however.
Not sure what to do with the inlets, there's not a lot of room above the throttle bodies hence the 90 degree bends. One of the three inlets has these two electrical connections, I'm guessing intake temp for one but the other?? Three K&N might fit (what to do with the electronics) or I could try and make a base to sit a low foam filter on, or a low height plenum chamber but that may obstruct air flow.
Haven't drained the old fuel and replaced yet as it did briefly run OK for a few miles back in January but I think I must get that done before attempting anything else.
Thanks for all suggestions.
Mikey G said:
I'm wondering if they did it with that 4 way as a way of equaling flow and pressure across the 3 fuel rails.
So many adapters on the market you could probably make up a single supply line using tee's and elbows to join the fuel rails with a single connection one end.
That thought had crossed my mind. Need to get it running OK before starting to improve the routes of the pipework.So many adapters on the market you could probably make up a single supply line using tee's and elbows to join the fuel rails with a single connection one end.
E-bmw said:
stevieturbo said:
However...in other photos....that intake......I'm rather horrified.
It does look like it was a joint project made by Heath & Robinson!Tony was a pretty good engineer, there's some clever stuff on the car unfortunately this isn't one of them.
Worst comes to worst, I can go back to a Weber carb & dizzy, all came with the car in a van load of spares.
stevieturbo said:
As for whatever this "intake module" you refer to, post a picture of it.
A new manifold with the runners into a common single plenum would be neater and then a single air filter. Or perhaps yes, short runners and 3 filters.
And what electronics are you referring to ? be specific as I cannot see from here.
Under this:A new manifold with the runners into a common single plenum would be neater and then a single air filter. Or perhaps yes, short runners and 3 filters.
And what electronics are you referring to ? be specific as I cannot see from here.
Are these
Close up of part number.
Was going to drain the fuel from the tank with a suction oil remover but wary in case the petrol destroys a seal
stevieturbo said:
looks like an idle speed control valve someone has blanked off.
So it is not in use.
In a case where your engine will not start, you know it's already flooded plugs....this is just futile.
Sometimes drying them will fix them, but often it will not. And refitting plugs you are not 100% sure will be good, into an engine you're having trouble starting, is literally just pissing into the wind. Because if it still does not start, it might simply be because the plugs are stuffed.
Now once starting and running is all sweet, you could maybe go back and try some of those old flooded/dried plugs. But IMO NEVER use them on an engine that you're struggling to start.
Fix the flooding, fit new plugs. Then start it. If this takes a few sets of cheap plugs, so be it.
Idle speed control - blanked at one end but electrical conn at the other - how would one of these work? The air temp has a connection also but did thinkit surplus to essential requirement.So it is not in use.
In a case where your engine will not start, you know it's already flooded plugs....this is just futile.
Sometimes drying them will fix them, but often it will not. And refitting plugs you are not 100% sure will be good, into an engine you're having trouble starting, is literally just pissing into the wind. Because if it still does not start, it might simply be because the plugs are stuffed.
Now once starting and running is all sweet, you could maybe go back and try some of those old flooded/dried plugs. But IMO NEVER use them on an engine that you're struggling to start.
Fix the flooding, fit new plugs. Then start it. If this takes a few sets of cheap plugs, so be it.
Ordered up fresh plugs (BP6ES) are normal plugs no longer changed? Little tale - Halfords sell the one for a number of older Fords as a Lawnmower plug!
And I called the local motor spares shop this morning - do you stock NGK BP6ES - "yes I 'have 4 in stock" (I need 6) OK I could probably get away with BP7 - "We've got three of them"
Attempted to syphon out the old fuel but a mouthful of stale petrol later I had recovered half a gallon. The original fuel tank had a drain plug but by all accounts it'll be stuck. If it's still in existence.
stevieturbo said:
Skyedriver said:
Idle speed control - blanked at one end but electrical conn at the other - how would one of these work? The air temp has a connection also but did thinkit surplus to essential requirement.
Ordered up fresh plugs (BP6ES) are normal plugs no longer changed? Little tale - Halfords sell the one for a number of older Fords as a Lawnmower plug!
And I called the local motor spares shop this morning - do you stock NGK BP6ES - "yes I 'have 4 in stock" (I need 6) OK I could probably get away with BP7 - "We've got three of them"
Attempted to syphon out the old fuel but a mouthful of stale petrol later I had recovered half a gallon. The original fuel tank had a drain plug but by all accounts it'll be stuck. If it's still in existence.
With it blanked off....it would not work.Ordered up fresh plugs (BP6ES) are normal plugs no longer changed? Little tale - Halfords sell the one for a number of older Fords as a Lawnmower plug!
And I called the local motor spares shop this morning - do you stock NGK BP6ES - "yes I 'have 4 in stock" (I need 6) OK I could probably get away with BP7 - "We've got three of them"
Attempted to syphon out the old fuel but a mouthful of stale petrol later I had recovered half a gallon. The original fuel tank had a drain plug but by all accounts it'll be stuck. If it's still in existence.
It's just an air bypass to allow air into the intake, passing the throttles.
Many will say air temp is essential, but in reality it is not. But it is better to have it.
Everything should be explained in the Haynes book.
You've got me thinking (can't touch the car now untl Monday) is it flooding as there's too low an air flow despite the now open intakes?
New plugs arrived early - thank you Burton
Engine Management book read while I was away Friday & Saturday
Some fresh 99octane (E5) added to the fuel - thank you Esso & Halfway House garage
And some very helpful info and advice from Stevie - thanks, invaluable.
Fires, runs, sweet as a nut, mega oil pressure too.
Few things a bit odd including the 6 cylinder coil pack is connected to the wrong leads should be 1&5, 3&4, 2&6 according to Emerald diagram but it's actually 1&5, 2&6, 3&4.But we'll not split hairs!
Next job is tidy up the fuel lines, try and work out an air filter system when there's not a lot of room*, do I need the intake air temp and auxiliary air sensor, the book says beneficial but not essential I think (need to re-read) then it's on to the interior.
Engine Management book read while I was away Friday & Saturday
Some fresh 99octane (E5) added to the fuel - thank you Esso & Halfway House garage
And some very helpful info and advice from Stevie - thanks, invaluable.
Fires, runs, sweet as a nut, mega oil pressure too.
Few things a bit odd including the 6 cylinder coil pack is connected to the wrong leads should be 1&5, 3&4, 2&6 according to Emerald diagram but it's actually 1&5, 2&6, 3&4.But we'll not split hairs!
Next job is tidy up the fuel lines, try and work out an air filter system when there's not a lot of room*, do I need the intake air temp and auxiliary air sensor, the book says beneficial but not essential I think (need to re-read) then it's on to the interior.
- need to measure the available height and decide whether K&Ns fit or I try a foam one from Jenvey or similar or make a plenum chamber affair.
[quote=Skyedriver
need to measure the available height and decide whether K&Ns fit or I try a foam one from Jenvey or similar or make a plenum chamber affair.
[/quote]
Well folks, some in depth measuring and I'm a bit screwed. I can now see why he's done it the way he did. The top of the rear throttle body is approx 25 to 30mm below the lip of the bonnet opening/bulkhead. By using a 90 degree bend angled forward he's cleared it. So it would seem I either need a filter/plenum chamber no deeper than 25mm which is likely going to restrict air flow to the rear body or retain the existing pipework. Need another cunning plan.....
need to measure the available height and decide whether K&Ns fit or I try a foam one from Jenvey or similar or make a plenum chamber affair.
[/quote]
Well folks, some in depth measuring and I'm a bit screwed. I can now see why he's done it the way he did. The top of the rear throttle body is approx 25 to 30mm below the lip of the bonnet opening/bulkhead. By using a 90 degree bend angled forward he's cleared it. So it would seem I either need a filter/plenum chamber no deeper than 25mm which is likely going to restrict air flow to the rear body or retain the existing pipework. Need another cunning plan.....
Hi TwinKam & Stevie, thanks for suffering my problem. Running fine or was when I turned it around a few days ago. Not been on the road yet...
I've got possibly 4" clearance above the actual orifice of the rearmost TB but the flange/base plate is under the bulkhead lip, it really is that close.
assuming the filter (whichever type I use) extends beyond the orifice, it collides with the bulkhead. Pic to follow. It's why the rearmost 90 degree bend points forward.
I've been through the ITG/K&N/Pipercross etc catalogue and the best option I can see is 6 "socks" which I'm not keen on.
The other problem, and I assume everyone has the same problem, is the fuel "rail" is transverse across the TB and stands higher then the face of the TB so a basic backing plate for a plenum or communal air filter wont fit without relieving it for clearance.
Yes a better constructed collector, an aluminium cylinder with a sealed end would look so much better. I could open up three holes for the outlets and one for the inlet. Been scouting around for something but not seen anything suitable yet.
Just had an idea about a home made plenum in sheet ali over the top of the existing bends with a single pipe away to a remote filter......I'll be back....
I've got possibly 4" clearance above the actual orifice of the rearmost TB but the flange/base plate is under the bulkhead lip, it really is that close.
assuming the filter (whichever type I use) extends beyond the orifice, it collides with the bulkhead. Pic to follow. It's why the rearmost 90 degree bend points forward.
I've been through the ITG/K&N/Pipercross etc catalogue and the best option I can see is 6 "socks" which I'm not keen on.
The other problem, and I assume everyone has the same problem, is the fuel "rail" is transverse across the TB and stands higher then the face of the TB so a basic backing plate for a plenum or communal air filter wont fit without relieving it for clearance.
Yes a better constructed collector, an aluminium cylinder with a sealed end would look so much better. I could open up three holes for the outlets and one for the inlet. Been scouting around for something but not seen anything suitable yet.
Just had an idea about a home made plenum in sheet ali over the top of the existing bends with a single pipe away to a remote filter......I'll be back....
Edited by Skyedriver on Wednesday 29th March 19:02
It's a Ford Essex V6 3 litre, installed in a Gilbern Invader...
this is the clearance I have at the rear TB.
In this pic you can see how the transverse fuel rails sit higher than the top of the TB face making the use of a flat base plate impossible without either spacing it up over or cutting rebates for the fuel rails.
But I think I have a cunning plan to create a satisfactory plenum with ali sheet over the top of new stacks with the rearward ones leaning or bending forward enough to clear the bulkhead leaving space for the plenum. Or mould one using f/glass or carbon sheet if I'm feeling artistic.
Still need to sort those fuel lines too.....
this is the clearance I have at the rear TB.
In this pic you can see how the transverse fuel rails sit higher than the top of the TB face making the use of a flat base plate impossible without either spacing it up over or cutting rebates for the fuel rails.
But I think I have a cunning plan to create a satisfactory plenum with ali sheet over the top of new stacks with the rearward ones leaning or bending forward enough to clear the bulkhead leaving space for the plenum. Or mould one using f/glass or carbon sheet if I'm feeling artistic.
Still need to sort those fuel lines too.....
stevieturbo said:
It seems this is the sort of thing you have ?
https://www.burtonpower.com/jenvey-throttle-body-a...
Would certainly have been a lot easier if they'd put the injectors along the sides like most installs would be.
If you wanted to make new rail mounts, I presume you have standard 75mm or thereabouts injectors ? There are plenty of sorter injectors about 34mm or so.
So you could then drop the rail about 40mm lower if that helped.
That's the set up but the twin ram pipes/velocity stacks weren't with the car when I bought ithttps://www.burtonpower.com/jenvey-throttle-body-a...
Would certainly have been a lot easier if they'd put the injectors along the sides like most installs would be.
If you wanted to make new rail mounts, I presume you have standard 75mm or thereabouts injectors ? There are plenty of sorter injectors about 34mm or so.
So you could then drop the rail about 40mm lower if that helped.
Apologies for using you all as a sounding board but I have been internetting and measuring away. there's a 25mm spacer for the 42DCNF (available in the USA by the looks of it) which would lift the top deck of the TB level with the fuel rail and allow a flat base for a plenum/filter. However that takes everything 25mm closer to the underside of the bonnet and bulkhead where I'm stuck for height now.
Then wondered about using the existing 6 legged spider arrangement but connecting the cylinder closer to the inlets using short lengths of rubber rather than the long lengths of silver tube. The two cylinders would sit on top of the rocker covers rather than down the side of the engine. Those two cylinders, about 85mm dia look horrible covered in silver tape BUT strip that off and you have two aluminium casings with beautifully welded spiggots? (Wish I could weld aluminium or anything for that matter, as good). Apparently it used to get very hot under the bonnet hence the silver insulation on everything!
There's my answer I thought. Then I remembered, they're 42DCNF TBs. The pipework into the cylinders and also the 6 "trumpets" are only 38mm OD. Why Why Why!
Edited by Skyedriver on Thursday 30th March 20:42
Original set up was a 38DGAS IIRC (Single twin choke) or something similar. Circular plastic filter case sat on the top. In a Capri it's a lot further forward.
In the Gilbern
Unsure of the exact spec but my engine has been breathed on, cam, heads, exhaust....
In the Gilbern
Unsure of the exact spec but my engine has been breathed on, cam, heads, exhaust....
Edited by Skyedriver on Thursday 30th March 23:33
Edited by Skyedriver on Thursday 30th March 23:34
Not a fan of braided hose -can't see what the condition of the pipe underneath is.
These AN6 are new to me and very clever but I'm going back to proper R9 hose with good old fashioned hose clips. I have a plan.... but need to get a few jobs done elsewhere first so this project is on hold for a while.
These AN6 are new to me and very clever but I'm going back to proper R9 hose with good old fashioned hose clips. I have a plan.... but need to get a few jobs done elsewhere first so this project is on hold for a while.
Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff