Oil - You get what you pay for!
Discussion
I posted this a very long time ago but for the benefit of the newer members and those that missed it first time around, some enlightening facts from and expert!
A word of caution – You get what you pay for!
Below is an article written by John Rowland, Silkolene Chief R & D Chemist for 40 years.
Quote:
Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils. The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked”. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low “W” rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions.
We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”.
Yes it’s a cruel world, you get what you pay for!
Now, you may ask, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”?
Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”.
Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight!
They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.
So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!
The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case.
But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.
This oil costs more money to buy, because it costs us a lot of money to make, very simply, you always get what you pay for!
Unquote:
This article is something that all car owners should read and understand before buying oil and I’ve posted this with Johns permission.
Cheers
Guy
A word of caution – You get what you pay for!
Below is an article written by John Rowland, Silkolene Chief R & D Chemist for 40 years.
Quote:
Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils. The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked”. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low “W” rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions.
We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”.
Yes it’s a cruel world, you get what you pay for!
Now, you may ask, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”?
Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”.
Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight!
They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.
So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!
The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case.
But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.
This oil costs more money to buy, because it costs us a lot of money to make, very simply, you always get what you pay for!
Unquote:
This article is something that all car owners should read and understand before buying oil and I’ve posted this with Johns permission.
Cheers
Guy
mongoose said:
Guy,would you choose Motul over Silkolene if the price were the same?Ive been wondering how you can tell how much easther you get/which is best?I'm running a slightly modded griff 500 and currently using the pro's' 10/50 i bought from you,but was wondering wheather changing to the Motul might be better?I have a service coming up mid December.Cheers,Mike
Price does not come into my thinking it's the quality and our experience over the years with the oils and.............happy Customers!
They are both great oils. Nothing to choose through chemical analysis so don't be put off by either.....They're both better than 95% of the oils out there.
I would choose Silkolene personally as I know the Chemist and what the oil is capable of.
We have this oil in 1000bhp Skylines and 800bhp Cosworths (well known ones) and it has never let us or our Customers down, they swear by it.
Cheers
Guy
Indeed, a content of 20-25% makes a top oil and we have only tested a few that reach this high standard.
It would be prohibitive "cost wise" to blend with any larger % of ester (unless of course you are Richard Branson and own a fleet of jets!)but the use of purely Group V (ester) and Group IV (pao) is the best combination available on the market today.
The fact is I only know for sure of 3 oils on the market today that exceed 20% ester and the balance in pao basestocks. These oils are expensive but they are IMHO the top of the tree for high performance cars.
Cheers
Simon
It would be prohibitive "cost wise" to blend with any larger % of ester (unless of course you are Richard Branson and own a fleet of jets!)but the use of purely Group V (ester) and Group IV (pao) is the best combination available on the market today.
The fact is I only know for sure of 3 oils on the market today that exceed 20% ester and the balance in pao basestocks. These oils are expensive but they are IMHO the top of the tree for high performance cars.
Cheers
Simon
markh said:
guy what is your honest opinion on royal purple if you can give it? i have found it fantastic in the rover engine but trying to get the customers to pay over £100 for an oil change is quite amusing!!
Guy
what is this 'Royal Purple' oil? would this be the best option for my 4.5 Chimaera
Thanks mark
I dont stock the Royal Purple, as there is better.
Drop me a mail and I will forward on to you some options.
Cheers
Guy.
Castor oils are the best lubricants, but as you know they cannot be made into a multigrade so not suitable for modern engines, they dont last long either.
But........
If you want that good old smell that castor gives then plop a cup full or two into your petrol tank, it works.
Cheers
Guy.
But........
If you want that good old smell that castor gives then plop a cup full or two into your petrol tank, it works.
Cheers
Guy.
Quote:
The fact is I only know for sure of 3 oils on the market today that exceed 20% ester and the balance in pao basestocks. These oils are expensive but they are IMHO the top of the tree for high performance cars.
Unquote:
This is as much as I will say but for those that are enthusiasts and run high performance cars, modded and on track, the three concerned are:
Silkolene PRO, Motul 300v and Redline.
That is not to say there are others that we haven't tested but there are around 100 that we have that fall short of the mark, I WILL NOT name names.
Needless to say 3% is a very small number!
Cheers
Simon
The fact is I only know for sure of 3 oils on the market today that exceed 20% ester and the balance in pao basestocks. These oils are expensive but they are IMHO the top of the tree for high performance cars.
Unquote:
This is as much as I will say but for those that are enthusiasts and run high performance cars, modded and on track, the three concerned are:
Silkolene PRO, Motul 300v and Redline.
That is not to say there are others that we haven't tested but there are around 100 that we have that fall short of the mark, I WILL NOT name names.
Needless to say 3% is a very small number!
Cheers
Simon
In the first mile the higher volatility, inferior anti-wear performance and poor temperature resistance of a cheap grade of oil will start to show.
Obviously, there will be no immediate effects. The whole point of top quality oil is long-term performance retention, which is particularly valuable to people who actually own the car they drive! The ‘performance’ enthusiast will want to retain the new-spec BHP figures, and the cost-conscious will want to see good fuel economy with 100,000 on the clock.
Cheap oil, (particularly 10W/40 or thinner) evaporates quickly, and the vapour is drawn into the combustion chambers via the crankcase ventilation system. This means calcium and zinc oxide deposits (from oil additives) which will cause pre-ignition, so the knock sensor retards the ignition, giving less power and poor fuel economy.
The deposits also contaminate the exhaust catalyst, leading to high emissions and MOT failure. How much does an average catalyst box cost these days?!
False economy in my opinion.
Cheers
Simon
Obviously, there will be no immediate effects. The whole point of top quality oil is long-term performance retention, which is particularly valuable to people who actually own the car they drive! The ‘performance’ enthusiast will want to retain the new-spec BHP figures, and the cost-conscious will want to see good fuel economy with 100,000 on the clock.
Cheap oil, (particularly 10W/40 or thinner) evaporates quickly, and the vapour is drawn into the combustion chambers via the crankcase ventilation system. This means calcium and zinc oxide deposits (from oil additives) which will cause pre-ignition, so the knock sensor retards the ignition, giving less power and poor fuel economy.
The deposits also contaminate the exhaust catalyst, leading to high emissions and MOT failure. How much does an average catalyst box cost these days?!
False economy in my opinion.
Cheers
Simon
trackcar said:
Guy / Simon .. there's a thread running at the moment about oil temp gauges in V8 AJP TVR Cerberas .. in cold weather under cruise conditions the oil temp never gets above about 40degC .. the oil cooler has no thermostat in as std so is always cooling the oil down no matter what, and even on cars I've fitted thermostats to you still find these low temps as the finned alloy sump is a great oil cooler in it's own right.
Bearing in mind the over-cooling effect of the cerbera's inherent design, are there any cavaets to the advice for oil in Cerbera engines? I can't imagine 40degC is the sorts of oil temps an engineer would choose for a production engine ...
thanks in advance, Joo.
Joo,
Oil running at 40degc is really not too good.
Most road oils are designed to work at optimum 80degc up wards depending on make up and design.
Cheers
Guy.
I'm sorry mate, this is shot through with inaccuracies.
Firstly in the UK, synthetic can be "hydrocracked" oil, Germany is the only country where it has to be labelled properly.
Secondly synthetics don't have to be esters, they can be "hydrocracked" (Group III) or "pao" poly alpha olefins (Group IV).
Finally, their oils will not be 70% esters or they would cost £20 per litre not £5 per litre! They probably mean 70% synthetic (group IV & V) and 30% non-synthetic (group II/III).
I would like to see their reply in writing
We will be testing their oil in the next few weeks and will be able to tell you exactly what it contains!
Cheers
Simon
>> Edited by opieoilman on Monday 28th November 17:24
Firstly in the UK, synthetic can be "hydrocracked" oil, Germany is the only country where it has to be labelled properly.
Secondly synthetics don't have to be esters, they can be "hydrocracked" (Group III) or "pao" poly alpha olefins (Group IV).
Finally, their oils will not be 70% esters or they would cost £20 per litre not £5 per litre! They probably mean 70% synthetic (group IV & V) and 30% non-synthetic (group II/III).
I would like to see their reply in writing
We will be testing their oil in the next few weeks and will be able to tell you exactly what it contains!
Cheers
Simon
>> Edited by opieoilman on Monday 28th November 17:24
Forgot to mention
Quote:
the esters are all class 5 , pao's.... the latest available.
Unquote:
I'm not sure who this person is but esters are not pao's.
PAO's are group IV and esters are Group V.
Something does not stack up here I'm afraid.
Lets get the lab results and we'll know for sure.
Cheers
Simon
Quote:
the esters are all class 5 , pao's.... the latest available.
Unquote:
I'm not sure who this person is but esters are not pao's.
PAO's are group IV and esters are Group V.
Something does not stack up here I'm afraid.
Lets get the lab results and we'll know for sure.
Cheers
Simon
roop said:
Interesting thread, thank you...! My RS500 runs on 'Silkolene Pro R' I think. Good to know it's decent stuff. Perhaps I should switch from Castrol Ultra to Silkolene in the Type-R...?
Its up to you, we do rate the Silkolene over the Castrol as a "performance" oil.
Cheers
Guy.
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