Combined Super / turbocharging?
Discussion
I'm pretty well versed with supercharging, and have made a good job of turbocharging my mini, but know the limitations with both systems.... Just like Lancia succeded in doing with the S4, i'm tempted to look into running both in a future project...
I've got a suitable turbocharger sized up, that will allow me shed loads of boost (20+) at high RPM, and have a suitable supercharger available to me aswell...
I'm having disagreements with myself as to how to do this however... My blower doesn't have a clutch incidentally.
So, do i run them sequentially, drawing air from the air filter, into the supercharger, then into the turbo inlet; The other way round; in parralell, or what??
I'm thinking of running them as per i first described, but using a 'butterfly' valve positioned between the supercharger outlet and turbo inlet, which can open, allowing the turbo to draw in more air from the air filter, and effectivly leaving the supercharger to continue spinning under little or no load...
What do you guys think?
BTW - i can find NO actual reference on the interweb of how Lancia actually achieved it on the S4...
Many thanks,
D
I've got a suitable turbocharger sized up, that will allow me shed loads of boost (20+) at high RPM, and have a suitable supercharger available to me aswell...
I'm having disagreements with myself as to how to do this however... My blower doesn't have a clutch incidentally.
So, do i run them sequentially, drawing air from the air filter, into the supercharger, then into the turbo inlet; The other way round; in parralell, or what??
I'm thinking of running them as per i first described, but using a 'butterfly' valve positioned between the supercharger outlet and turbo inlet, which can open, allowing the turbo to draw in more air from the air filter, and effectivly leaving the supercharger to continue spinning under little or no load...
What do you guys think?
BTW - i can find NO actual reference on the interweb of how Lancia actually achieved it on the S4...
Many thanks,
D
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the suggestions thus far.
I would be using an Eaton M45 and a 0.63A/R turbine T25 series turbocharger for making high boost.
oh, it'll be on an A-Series circa 1300cc
I know about bypassing for part throttle, but this is not totally neccesary on a racer i understand - only for economy during cruising.
The Eaton is about as efficient a blower you can get, but the efficiencies drop of greatly under higher boost conditions... Certainly, these run 'dry' as they use their own lube system.
I now remember seeing that Mk2 Tina with the twin T2's and the Eaton M112 at York a good few times, but thanks to those twats at IPC media, i never recieved that issue with the fiesta Supersport with the combined induction layout..
I will be doing all this on a budget, probably blowing through a HIF but that's not to say i won't use what is right, or be in a quandry deciding which colour silicon hose to use!!!! Certainly, i will be using boost retard of some kind, probably the system my mate is nearly finishing developing... This will also have 'triggers' for RPM or boost, so i can use these for actuating things as required.
Guess i need to do some more searching, maybe try and track down the Cortina and fiesta owners...
This is still very much 'in the air' as i need to re-assemble my current mini engine (excessive piston blow-by) and finish my other project, but you can't rush these things!!!
(if you're interested, check my link of my existing mini(S) in my profile)
Cheers fellas!
D
Thanks for the suggestions thus far.
I would be using an Eaton M45 and a 0.63A/R turbine T25 series turbocharger for making high boost.
oh, it'll be on an A-Series circa 1300cc
I know about bypassing for part throttle, but this is not totally neccesary on a racer i understand - only for economy during cruising.
The Eaton is about as efficient a blower you can get, but the efficiencies drop of greatly under higher boost conditions... Certainly, these run 'dry' as they use their own lube system.
I now remember seeing that Mk2 Tina with the twin T2's and the Eaton M112 at York a good few times, but thanks to those twats at IPC media, i never recieved that issue with the fiesta Supersport with the combined induction layout..
I will be doing all this on a budget, probably blowing through a HIF but that's not to say i won't use what is right, or be in a quandry deciding which colour silicon hose to use!!!! Certainly, i will be using boost retard of some kind, probably the system my mate is nearly finishing developing... This will also have 'triggers' for RPM or boost, so i can use these for actuating things as required.
Guess i need to do some more searching, maybe try and track down the Cortina and fiesta owners...
This is still very much 'in the air' as i need to re-assemble my current mini engine (excessive piston blow-by) and finish my other project, but you can't rush these things!!!
(if you're interested, check my link of my existing mini(S) in my profile)
Cheers fellas!
D
Stevie,
Been there done that on the EFI front, and my experiences are sore...
I've had a major falling out with DTA over it - put simply NO ecu (ok ONE specially developed by MBE and released last month) can properly fuel inject an A-series (siamese port) engine.
Check out the link in my profile for my mini spec, i've used WEBCON and DTA, but neither fuelled the engine well enough to make as much power as when the SU was substituted, both on a roling road and on the qtr mile...
Gearboxes aren't a serious problem either in my opinion - so long as you build them right - sure they are weak, but the reduced life is acceptable for me.
Wheelspin / torque steer is easilly overcome if you use wheels with sensible offsets, keep the driveshafts pretty near level, and keep tabs on the corner weights.
I appreciate Ballrace bearings, but there isn't one 'off the shelf' for smaller engines (with the exception of skyline R32 i think? - try finding one of them!), and i nearly fell over when i was given quotes form specialists about building me one to suit...
It's kinda taking away from what i want to achieve with this project.
Any more info on the theory behind this mucho appreciated.
Been there done that on the EFI front, and my experiences are sore...
I've had a major falling out with DTA over it - put simply NO ecu (ok ONE specially developed by MBE and released last month) can properly fuel inject an A-series (siamese port) engine.
Check out the link in my profile for my mini spec, i've used WEBCON and DTA, but neither fuelled the engine well enough to make as much power as when the SU was substituted, both on a roling road and on the qtr mile...
Gearboxes aren't a serious problem either in my opinion - so long as you build them right - sure they are weak, but the reduced life is acceptable for me.
Wheelspin / torque steer is easilly overcome if you use wheels with sensible offsets, keep the driveshafts pretty near level, and keep tabs on the corner weights.
I appreciate Ballrace bearings, but there isn't one 'off the shelf' for smaller engines (with the exception of skyline R32 i think? - try finding one of them!), and i nearly fell over when i was given quotes form specialists about building me one to suit...
It's kinda taking away from what i want to achieve with this project.
Any more info on the theory behind this mucho appreciated.
I use the T2 as my mini is soley a road car, I don't like the sluggish response of the T3, so would rather not go that route...
Incidentally that 1/4 was with the car as seen in the pics - no perspex or lightening of any kind - just a road going mini with no LSD, full soundproofing and my tools in the boot (it's a long walk back from the top of the strip!!!)
NGK's - Grrrr!
I wrote a post on another site about them, i'll find the link and post it.
as regards EFI, Thsi site explains it all in very good detail. Marcel and myself did a lot of work on the background, but he continued on and came up with the actual test results that backed up the theory...
www.planet.eon.net/~chichm/efi/efi.htm
www.planet.eon.net/%7Echichm/efi/siamese.htm
Should give a good insight!
D
Incidentally that 1/4 was with the car as seen in the pics - no perspex or lightening of any kind - just a road going mini with no LSD, full soundproofing and my tools in the boot (it's a long walk back from the top of the strip!!!)
NGK's - Grrrr!
I wrote a post on another site about them, i'll find the link and post it.
as regards EFI, Thsi site explains it all in very good detail. Marcel and myself did a lot of work on the background, but he continued on and came up with the actual test results that backed up the theory...
www.planet.eon.net/~chichm/efi/efi.htm
www.planet.eon.net/%7Echichm/efi/siamese.htm
Should give a good insight!
D
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