Would you make a track car out of a Granturismo
Discussion
Forget the fact the car is a GT car, it is a reasonably fast and capable car and seems like it will be loads of track fun. Weight saving might be the main focus, rather than increasing power, and with parts for Masers being expensive, some of the parts being taken out could be sold on.
Realistically, from a 1.9t car, would a few hundred kilos be achievable?
Would you?
Would I?
Realistically, from a 1.9t car, would a few hundred kilos be achievable?
Would you?
Would I?
jeremyc said:
This is what sparked my interest. The GT4 cars look excellent. .jpg)
My experience on track days has seen a wide variety of abilities and performance from all types of cars. For me track days are about fun, and I find the GT far more fun to drive than the Megane, and that was a cageless track car.
I also dont find the weight to be of an issue, the car pivots well, the rear seems to be very stable (road only, so will be completely different on the track) and has adequate power.
I've overtaken some very capable cars on truck with inferior kit, as im sure many track day goers will report their experiences.
Whilst it is front engined, the engine sits behind the front axle, the weight distribution is almost 50/50 and for me the car is stacking up for something great fun.
Regarding the tyres , fuel and brakes, if you buy one of these cars and have to worry about the consumables, then stick to ford fiestas.
I also dont find the weight to be of an issue, the car pivots well, the rear seems to be very stable (road only, so will be completely different on the track) and has adequate power.
I've overtaken some very capable cars on truck with inferior kit, as im sure many track day goers will report their experiences.
Whilst it is front engined, the engine sits behind the front axle, the weight distribution is almost 50/50 and for me the car is stacking up for something great fun.
Regarding the tyres , fuel and brakes, if you buy one of these cars and have to worry about the consumables, then stick to ford fiestas.
Lee Jones Jnr said:
Mr Spoon said:
My experience on track days has seen a wide variety of abilities and performance from all types of cars. For me track days are about fun, and I find the GT far more fun to drive than the Megane, and that was a cageless track car.
I also dont find the weight to be of an issue, the car pivots well, the rear seems to be very stable (road only, so will be completely different on the track) and has adequate power.
I've overtaken some very capable cars on truck with inferior kit, as im sure many track day goers will report their experiences.
Whilst it is front engined, the engine sits behind the front axle, the weight distribution is almost 50/50 and for me the car is stacking up for something great fun.
Regarding the tyres , fuel and brakes, if you buy one of these cars and have to worry about the consumables, then stick to ford fiestas.
Well, opinions vary and it wouldn’t do for everyone to be the same.I also dont find the weight to be of an issue, the car pivots well, the rear seems to be very stable (road only, so will be completely different on the track) and has adequate power.
I've overtaken some very capable cars on truck with inferior kit, as im sure many track day goers will report their experiences.
Whilst it is front engined, the engine sits behind the front axle, the weight distribution is almost 50/50 and for me the car is stacking up for something great fun.
Regarding the tyres , fuel and brakes, if you buy one of these cars and have to worry about the consumables, then stick to ford fiestas.
I could be thinking of someone else who posts on here but did you buy at the bottom end of the market? Absolutely nothing wrong with that but it really surprises me that (of it is you I’m thinking of) that you find a 4.2 GT has adequate power to be a track car and also that consumables are inconsequential.
I can’t remember off the top of my head but I think the GT is 55/45 or 45/55 which is all well and good for the car being used on the road. What worthwhile weight saving can be done without spoiling the balance? What weight can be shaved from the front end?
It definitely CAN be done, it just seems odd to bother doing it.
I'm surprised one would think the GT is underpowered? Some of the best track days I have done have been in a 100hp car. Albeit with 800kg, but still far off the 200hp/tonne the GT has. A civic type R and many other cars like this don't make the 200hp/tonne mark, and whilst there are super supercars making much more, I think thats plenty.
Its a very good point about the balance. Absolutely no idea what making it lighter, even if its realistically possibly would do. Plastic weighs nothing so remove those parts wouldn't do much. In fact, there are lots of things that wouldnt really do much, I could take the car to the track as it is, pay a decent instructor and be much faster than if I were to strip it out, change the suspension etc.
MDL111 said:
regarding the weight point, i would think that on a 1.9t car a few hundred kg should easily be achievable. I do not have the list anymore that I put together for the 550, but from memory the following parts were on it (in no particular order):
Carbon bucketseats [in your case also get rid of rear seats)
Lightweight exhaust system, ideally titanium throughout
Lightweight rims
Lightweight front and rear bumpers (either off the shelf, or more likely get them manufactured in carbon)
Carbon bonnet and bootlid plus possibly front wings [would leave the doors alone if not integrating a full cage]
Lexan windows in the rear
Lightweight battery
Remove sound deadening in the passenger compartment
Carbon brakes [I thought those were unlikely to be added, but they would have helped a little re unsprung weight]
I wanted to keep the radio, heating and aircon as I did not want an out and out track car, more like a light 550.
I had weight estimates for most of the above items and I think it added up to c. 200 kg from memory, which would have been quite nice on a 550
I imagine the car felt hugely different!Carbon bucketseats [in your case also get rid of rear seats)
Lightweight exhaust system, ideally titanium throughout
Lightweight rims
Lightweight front and rear bumpers (either off the shelf, or more likely get them manufactured in carbon)
Carbon bonnet and bootlid plus possibly front wings [would leave the doors alone if not integrating a full cage]
Lexan windows in the rear
Lightweight battery
Remove sound deadening in the passenger compartment
Carbon brakes [I thought those were unlikely to be added, but they would have helped a little re unsprung weight]
I wanted to keep the radio, heating and aircon as I did not want an out and out track car, more like a light 550.
I had weight estimates for most of the above items and I think it added up to c. 200 kg from memory, which would have been quite nice on a 550
The windows must have been a saving of 10kg each....if not 20 for the rear...
MDL111 said:
Mr Spoon said:
MDL111 said:
regarding the weight point, i would think that on a 1.9t car a few hundred kg should easily be achievable. I do not have the list anymore that I put together for the 550, but from memory the following parts were on it (in no particular order):
Carbon bucketseats [in your case also get rid of rear seats)
Lightweight exhaust system, ideally titanium throughout
Lightweight rims
Lightweight front and rear bumpers (either off the shelf, or more likely get them manufactured in carbon)
Carbon bonnet and bootlid plus possibly front wings [would leave the doors alone if not integrating a full cage]
Lexan windows in the rear
Lightweight battery
Remove sound deadening in the passenger compartment
Carbon brakes [I thought those were unlikely to be added, but they would have helped a little re unsprung weight]
I wanted to keep the radio, heating and aircon as I did not want an out and out track car, more like a light 550.
I had weight estimates for most of the above items and I think it added up to c. 200 kg from memory, which would have been quite nice on a 550
I imagine the car felt hugely different!Carbon bucketseats [in your case also get rid of rear seats)
Lightweight exhaust system, ideally titanium throughout
Lightweight rims
Lightweight front and rear bumpers (either off the shelf, or more likely get them manufactured in carbon)
Carbon bonnet and bootlid plus possibly front wings [would leave the doors alone if not integrating a full cage]
Lexan windows in the rear
Lightweight battery
Remove sound deadening in the passenger compartment
Carbon brakes [I thought those were unlikely to be added, but they would have helped a little re unsprung weight]
I wanted to keep the radio, heating and aircon as I did not want an out and out track car, more like a light 550.
I had weight estimates for most of the above items and I think it added up to c. 200 kg from memory, which would have been quite nice on a 550
The windows must have been a saving of 10kg each....if not 20 for the rear...
SWoll said:
Having been through this kind of thing a few time over the years with friend etc. for me the big issue is usage.
If you want to continue to use it as a road car then I'd just get it well sorted and enjoy the occasional track day as it is. If not then you should go all in and do a full interior strip, lightweight seat, lightweight wheels with track focused tyres, new suspension etc.
The problems always come with halfway house cars as pretty much always end up being a bit rubbish on both road and track, especially when the basis is something heavy and better suited to grand touring like the GT.
Also, isn't your car a slushbox auto rather than MC Shift? Can't imagine that being great on track either?
I have no complaints with the ZF 6 speed auto, the paddle shift is quick enough for someone with my talents or lack thereof. Its quicker than a manual gear change.If you want to continue to use it as a road car then I'd just get it well sorted and enjoy the occasional track day as it is. If not then you should go all in and do a full interior strip, lightweight seat, lightweight wheels with track focused tyres, new suspension etc.
The problems always come with halfway house cars as pretty much always end up being a bit rubbish on both road and track, especially when the basis is something heavy and better suited to grand touring like the GT.
Also, isn't your car a slushbox auto rather than MC Shift? Can't imagine that being great on track either?
The cost trade off against usage will be a consideration for lots of cars. It is a good point.
Lee Jones Jnr said:
For your next project why not take a really good track car and convert it to a rubbish road car?
Your comment implies that all cars that see the track started off as rubbish road cars and that all track car will make rubbish road cars, so what about a mediocre track car making a mediocre road car? Lee Jones Jnr said:
Mr Spoon said:
Your comment implies that all cars that see the track started off as rubbish road cars and that all track car will make rubbish road cars, so what about a mediocre track car making a mediocre road car?
It doesn’t.JJbing said:
Why don't you buy a 2 seater strad, most of the work done for you...
This is a very good point, if I'd have set out with this as a purpose. I'm interested in opinions on whether this would be something other enthusiasts would do, or wouldn't do.
You don't see much with a Maserati badge at track events, and despite its size, I think the car performs more than well enough to enjoy.
I also wonder if the second hand value of parts mean more cars end up being stripped and sold rather than made into toys...
Murph7355 said:
Mr Spoon said:
Murph7355 said:
Not in a million years.
its comments like this that help with the burning desire to do the opposite. Own a maserati do you 
Perhaps you would like to put a reasoning as to your comment
They are heavy cars. Strip what you want out, but you will still be left with a heavy car that is no longer that comfortable.
They are big cars. They are a full 4-seater. Their width and length and wheelbase was never intended for the track and to make the best track car out there. They were intended to give the world a GT (clue's in the name) that could handle 4 people and luggage whilst looking lovely and sounding lovelier.
For the weight, they're not *that* powerful. And making it so will likely end up making one noisier than it currently is which might well preclude use on some tracks.
They chew fuel even in intended usage mode. Fuel is now £1.50/litre (give or take).
Parts aren't cheap (engine tuning? Brakes? Tyres? Etc).
But apart from those items I can't think of any more ideal base from which to start for a track car
(I'm being sarcastic of course. I can think of plenty).I admire people who chuck lots of money doing daft stuff with cars. Been there myself....although in my defence, when I was doing it I was throwing money at making a Caterham 7 200g lighter with my wages.
I appreciate Maserati made a GT4....but look how well that worked out. Even they, with all their resources, couldn't turn the sow's ear into a silk purse
I have a soft spot for the GT. But it ain't no track car.
It would be undoubtedly an expensive day at the track for sure.
Repairs, I don't use maserati although parts are still a premium, a friend and I can spanner away ok..him more than me.
Good point ref Maserati, I suppose they wanted to make a competitive gt4 car, but competitive isn't the aim, having fun is.
There seems more in camp no than yes.
Murph7355 said:
Mr Spoon said:
Murph7355 said:
Mr Spoon said:
Am I right in thinking you can avoid MOT failures using tape over warning lights or is that myth? ...
To what end? Which warning lights?Mr Spoon said:
And thank you for the reply..
It would be undoubtedly an expensive day at the track for sure.
Repairs, I don't use maserati although parts are still a premium, a friend and I can spanner away ok..him more than me.
Good point ref Maserati, I suppose they wanted to make a competitive gt4 car, but competitive isn't the aim, having fun is.
There seems more in camp no than yes.
NP It would be undoubtedly an expensive day at the track for sure.
Repairs, I don't use maserati although parts are still a premium, a friend and I can spanner away ok..him more than me.
Good point ref Maserati, I suppose they wanted to make a competitive gt4 car, but competitive isn't the aim, having fun is.
There seems more in camp no than yes.
I don't think it would end up that much "fun" tbh. I posted this elsewhere on here when I owned the GT - whilst they can be hustled admirably quickly, they don't feel like they're enjoying it. A bit like me - I can run....but I'm no longer very good at it and don't really enjoy it when I do
They are built for cruising - smashing miles to the South of France would be the perfect use of the car!A long time ago I was in France on a track day and a Cerbera rocked up. These are also great cars, but track vehicles they are not. The owner looked to be having a torrid time. Lots of hard, sweaty work, all to be lapped very quickly by the proper track stuff.
If you have the space, keep the Maser for what it does best and buy something cheap to thrash round a track. There's a ton of stuff you could choose from that would be great fun and much, much cheaper to run
I've just posed the question out of interest.
Completely agree with the track comments, however there is something that doesnt appear to have been mentioned, the skill level of the drivers make all the difference, so a much better track driver in a much inferior car will give you the inevitable.
I went for an enthusiastic drive with my friend who has a limited CTR and to quote him directly, "you pedal her well.".
I had excellent fun, as much as I did in the Boxster and at no point did the weight of the car become apparent. I imagine, in a track environment, this might be noticeable, but then again, the car has almost 50/50 weight distribution, I can only surmise that this is helpful.
Also note the point about the car feeling stressed, and you are probably right. The car won't lap this up like my swift gti used to
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