Discussion
So I was thinking of maybe making a trip up to Santa Pod early next year to see how the new setup works at the drag strip. After looking at ethanol prices in the UK, I may have to re-think that. ~100GBP for 25 litres? Holy Crap!!! I drive 40 minutes to pick up in France and it is .79 euro cents per litre. I'm guessing that's why no one runs it there.
liner33 said:
The E85 sold at the pod is a race fuel derived from bio ethanol , if you just want E85 you can buy it here and it will probably be the same as you can buy from the pump
http://www.ekofuel.org/bioethanol-fuel-for-firepla...
Consistency is so variable and the fuel goes off so quickly I think E85 is much more trouble than its worth
Much cheaper but still relatively expensive. Yea I would just mixed it with some petrol. I didn't see much gains past E60 content. Smells soooooo good out the exhaust http://www.ekofuel.org/bioethanol-fuel-for-firepla...
Consistency is so variable and the fuel goes off so quickly I think E85 is much more trouble than its worth
stevieturbo said:
E85 of any kind is not available at the pump in the UK...so certainly do not be reliant on finding it !!
And TBH when I read the US forums....between it clogging filters, lines, injectors etc etc and then poor consistency of quality, I'm almost baffled why people put up with it.
You have a point there as well...but I think a lot of issues could be avoided by using the right components. I haven't had any issues but I do run injectors and lines made specifically to handle the fuel. That includes the filters and pumps. I'm sure by now you have ridden in a flex fuel car to see the differences first hand. It is night and day for me. Probably over 200hp on the table by just making a stop at the pump. Well worth it!And TBH when I read the US forums....between it clogging filters, lines, injectors etc etc and then poor consistency of quality, I'm almost baffled why people put up with it.
stevieturbo said:
Never have....there's absolutely no E85 here either.
I can make more power than traction on pump fuel anyway, so whilst a fancy fuel may have its uses, it's totally impractical for me.
And on pump+meth I was faster than almost all of the GTR's using race E85 at TOTB over the 1km lol. And I'm only starting to get grip at the 1/4 to try and hit a decent speed.
As much as I know fancy fuels can yield benefits, for me if they are not readily available anywhere and sensibly priced, they just dont make any sense. Hell, even pump fuel is too bloody expensive !...or should say too heavily taxed, the fuel itself is a bloody bargain.
Race fuel and ethanol should also be bloody cheap as there should be none of that extortion hacked onto the price as neither are aimed at road vehicles. Sadly neither are.
Absolutely.....I would never run it if I lived in the UK. Maybe on a race day or something. I drive around on pump + meth but on ethanol, the car is a different animal. Hooks surprisingly well with a 305/30/19 R compound tire. UK gets the shaft when it come to petrol prices compared to mainland Europe.I can make more power than traction on pump fuel anyway, so whilst a fancy fuel may have its uses, it's totally impractical for me.
And on pump+meth I was faster than almost all of the GTR's using race E85 at TOTB over the 1km lol. And I'm only starting to get grip at the 1/4 to try and hit a decent speed.
As much as I know fancy fuels can yield benefits, for me if they are not readily available anywhere and sensibly priced, they just dont make any sense. Hell, even pump fuel is too bloody expensive !...or should say too heavily taxed, the fuel itself is a bloody bargain.
Race fuel and ethanol should also be bloody cheap as there should be none of that extortion hacked onto the price as neither are aimed at road vehicles. Sadly neither are.
fastbikes76 said:
I use Methanol instead of E85. Methanol is £0.70 a liter and readily available from Jennychem with free delivery. I order 210L drums at a time and have just ordered my 10th drum in 4 years 
I don't run an injection kit, I run it straight in the fuel tank in a 20% ratio (5l meth and 20L pump) and the results for me are night and day. I run a high compression turbo engine and make FAR more power than any of the other guys on pump and low comp Turbo lumps with the same setups. The best thing is you need nothing at all to run it apart from the extra head room in your injectors to be able to add roughly 12-15% extra overall fuel into the map. Other than that due to pre mixing it you cant mess up. There are no pumps to fail, no meth tanks to run out no air locks to deal with or any other injection kit associated issues. If I'm out of meth, its because I'm out of petrol too
Depending on how rich the stock VXR8 map is you could probably throw 10% mix in without touching anything. The stock 3000GT Mitsubishi map is pretty rich at mid 10's on WOT. Throwing 10% meth in without touching a thing or altering the map makes the car run closer to mid 11's AFR and adds a fair chunk of power while staying safe due to the Meths cooling and increased octain properties.
I cannot recommend it enough ! 2 of us have run meth for 4 years solid now on stock fuel systems and never had a single failure like the gloopy E85 injectors etc.
Happy to answer any questions if you have.
Hmmmmm. I've never looked into this actually. I do run a meth nozzle even when on the ethanol. Here it is the opposite...I pay 90 euros for 30 litres of meth. You need some sort of business license to get a hold of it.I don't run an injection kit, I run it straight in the fuel tank in a 20% ratio (5l meth and 20L pump) and the results for me are night and day. I run a high compression turbo engine and make FAR more power than any of the other guys on pump and low comp Turbo lumps with the same setups. The best thing is you need nothing at all to run it apart from the extra head room in your injectors to be able to add roughly 12-15% extra overall fuel into the map. Other than that due to pre mixing it you cant mess up. There are no pumps to fail, no meth tanks to run out no air locks to deal with or any other injection kit associated issues. If I'm out of meth, its because I'm out of petrol too
Depending on how rich the stock VXR8 map is you could probably throw 10% mix in without touching anything. The stock 3000GT Mitsubishi map is pretty rich at mid 10's on WOT. Throwing 10% meth in without touching a thing or altering the map makes the car run closer to mid 11's AFR and adds a fair chunk of power while staying safe due to the Meths cooling and increased octain properties.
I cannot recommend it enough ! 2 of us have run meth for 4 years solid now on stock fuel systems and never had a single failure like the gloopy E85 injectors etc.
Happy to answer any questions if you have.
stevieturbo said:
so is all ethanol simply ethanol ?
Why is so called C85 that the likes of VP sell hugely more expensive than regular E85 ( if it existed in the UK )
Likewise I've never udterstood why pure methanol from a chemical supplier is about 1/5th the price of so called M1 methanol from a race fuel supplier.
It's a simple chemical, not a huge array of chemicals like petrol can be. So what makes one more expensive than the other ?
My guess is "marketing". A big part of the VP fuel that Pod sells is that they guarantee a perfect mixture of 85% ethanol 15% gasoline. Pump E85 can vary from 55% to 85% ethanol and can be inconsistent particularly during winter months. If your car is mapped specifically for E85, then you want that. I run a flex fuel sensor so the tune adjusts depending on the content.Why is so called C85 that the likes of VP sell hugely more expensive than regular E85 ( if it existed in the UK )
Likewise I've never udterstood why pure methanol from a chemical supplier is about 1/5th the price of so called M1 methanol from a race fuel supplier.
It's a simple chemical, not a huge array of chemicals like petrol can be. So what makes one more expensive than the other ?
I buy 10 litre containers on Ebay here in Germany that are 96%, mix it with gasoline and go about my way.
Apparently C85 contains MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyle Ether)additive which is not compatible with some injectors but reportedly nets 2-3% more power. This is not worth the additional cost for most street users. Here is what VP Racing fuel says about it:
"If you’re committed to using E85 type fuels, C85 is by far your best choice. Conventional E85 fuels are notoriously inconsistent, requiring up to a two-jet swing in tuning from one batch of E85 to the next. By contrast, C85 is blended with a consistent proportion of ethanol and every other component in every drum. In addition to taking all the guesswork out of tuning, C85 makes up to 4% more power and torque than conventional E85. With higher quality pure components, C85 is superior to E85 in terms of cooling effect, resistance to detonation and even includes corrosion inhibitors to fight the issues presented by ethanol. C85 works well in drag racing, oval track, off road and virtually any other automotive application, in particular forced induction applications due to its lower vapor pressure. Tests of C85 indicate most applications will require richening up by 1 jet size, or 2-3% over current jetting. Note that for racers unwilling to invest in the new carb and expensive fuel system upgrade required for E85, VPs MS109, VP113 and Q16 continue to be the best race gas alternatives for the money."
"If you’re committed to using E85 type fuels, C85 is by far your best choice. Conventional E85 fuels are notoriously inconsistent, requiring up to a two-jet swing in tuning from one batch of E85 to the next. By contrast, C85 is blended with a consistent proportion of ethanol and every other component in every drum. In addition to taking all the guesswork out of tuning, C85 makes up to 4% more power and torque than conventional E85. With higher quality pure components, C85 is superior to E85 in terms of cooling effect, resistance to detonation and even includes corrosion inhibitors to fight the issues presented by ethanol. C85 works well in drag racing, oval track, off road and virtually any other automotive application, in particular forced induction applications due to its lower vapor pressure. Tests of C85 indicate most applications will require richening up by 1 jet size, or 2-3% over current jetting. Note that for racers unwilling to invest in the new carb and expensive fuel system upgrade required for E85, VPs MS109, VP113 and Q16 continue to be the best race gas alternatives for the money."
stevieturbo said:
Naturally they're going to big up their own product and I guess consistency is one aspect. But I'd just find it hard to accept the price. Both it and race fuel are still around 5x the price of normal fuel here. And normal fuel is bloody expensive !
I've just never been able to bring myself to believe it is worth the money, or seen any true back to back tests that really validate its worth
The other aspect with E85 that seems to be huge in the US from reading Tech etc. Is gumming up of filters, injectors etc. Some of those guys are needing to clean injectors almost once or twice a year ! Surely all E85 systems cannot be that bad ?
I know a lot of the big power GTR's in the UK seem to favour C85. Over the 1km...I still go faster than most of them though on pump+meth. Which again makes me wonder is it worth spending the extra.
Making the power without fancy fuel is not difficult.
But the popularity of E85 around the world must mean something, the yanks really love it ! Although no doubt its cheap for them which helps.
The problem is that most of the folks on Tech are using their existing fuel system or piecing one together to run the fuel Some hoses, pumps or injectors are incompatible. That's why they run in "gum" issues. Basically rubber or plastic components deteriorating. I've just never been able to bring myself to believe it is worth the money, or seen any true back to back tests that really validate its worth
The other aspect with E85 that seems to be huge in the US from reading Tech etc. Is gumming up of filters, injectors etc. Some of those guys are needing to clean injectors almost once or twice a year ! Surely all E85 systems cannot be that bad ?
I know a lot of the big power GTR's in the UK seem to favour C85. Over the 1km...I still go faster than most of them though on pump+meth. Which again makes me wonder is it worth spending the extra.
Making the power without fancy fuel is not difficult.
But the popularity of E85 around the world must mean something, the yanks really love it ! Although no doubt its cheap for them which helps.
My fuel system was built specifically to handle alcohol based fuels (along with traditional gasoline) so the lines, pump, and injectors were all sourced with this purpose in mind. My injectors are squeaky clean though I must add I don't run ethanol 100% of the time.
My pump gas tune does run with 100% meth and no where in hell it make the power it does on E85. Night and day. Oh, and of course they're going to talk up their product. To the average person, it is not worth the extra cost period.
stevieturbo said:
Most are building the system specifically to run E85, as said, they love the stuff and its dirt cheap over there.
But they still have problems.
Although I'd agree, the fact you use pump fuel a lot to is bound to help cleanse the system. Most of the yanks run E85 full time, so they're bound to see more issues.
I doubt I'll ever try the E85...but I might try some race fuel someday.
It'll certainly be interesting to see how you go at Santa Pod though.
I'm skeptical I'd do much better but we will see. I have not tested this setup from a dig hard to tell how it will do with limited passes. I do know if I manage to leave the with a 1.5 or so 60ft there is a good chance I will be in the 9s.But they still have problems.
Although I'd agree, the fact you use pump fuel a lot to is bound to help cleanse the system. Most of the yanks run E85 full time, so they're bound to see more issues.
I doubt I'll ever try the E85...but I might try some race fuel someday.
It'll certainly be interesting to see how you go at Santa Pod though.
Quick update:
The fireplace ethanol bought in the UK works like a charm....
My track outing wasn't so good to be honest. I borrowed some 26.6" drag radials/wheels and fought traction during all 4 passes. Most were about 11.1@147 banging off the limiter right after the 1000ft mark. I have a 28.1' drag setup at home with much more sidewall but had to run without them since the wheels didn't get here in time.
I think she can do 155mph without having to turn up the boost anymore. That's definitely good enough for a nine just need to get the rest dialed in. Time to get the two step setup and leave with boost.
The fireplace ethanol bought in the UK works like a charm....
My track outing wasn't so good to be honest. I borrowed some 26.6" drag radials/wheels and fought traction during all 4 passes. Most were about 11.1@147 banging off the limiter right after the 1000ft mark. I have a 28.1' drag setup at home with much more sidewall but had to run without them since the wheels didn't get here in time.
I think she can do 155mph without having to turn up the boost anymore. That's definitely good enough for a nine just need to get the rest dialed in. Time to get the two step setup and leave with boost
.stevieturbo said:
Interesting about the ethanol. Any difference at all from pump bought stuff ?
Track must have been shockingly bad ? I was running that last year on normal road tyres when I was there, prper tyres made a huge difference the next day til the f'in clutch started slipping.
Your overall gearing must be quite short if 147 is the limit ? Or is your box a 1:1 top gear ?
Yea, with ethanol the car runs 5 more pounds of boost and 6 degrees more timing (no KR). It makes a HUGE night and day difference! It was pretty bad sometimes I spun halfway down the track but I'm not too concerned with it since I was on a borrowed set. Track must have been shockingly bad ? I was running that last year on normal road tyres when I was there, prper tyres made a huge difference the next day til the f'in clutch started slipping.
Your overall gearing must be quite short if 147 is the limit ? Or is your box a 1:1 top gear ?
With the 26.6" tires I can only cross the line at 146mph revving to 6800rpm. I have 28.1" tires at home that should let me move into the mid 150s without hitting off the limiter. I can shift into 5th but it is almost pointless after the 1000ft.
stevieturbo said:
Sorry, I meant the heating ethanol vs whatever ethanol you're normally using.
Surely the car would still pull hard in 5th ? Although obviously it does take the time to shift.... Up the rev limit !
153 on mine last year was around 6600rpm on 26" tyres although I've a 3.27 diff.
I dont have room for any tyres bigger than that without a lot of cutting though but the gearing works well.
No difference apart from smelling better since the ethanol content is higher. I ran it to about 75% mixture (E75). My flex fuel map is really doesn't add much timing after E60 so the difference in power from E60 to pure ethanol would be minor apart from worse gas mileage.Surely the car would still pull hard in 5th ? Although obviously it does take the time to shift.... Up the rev limit !
153 on mine last year was around 6600rpm on 26" tyres although I've a 3.27 diff.
I dont have room for any tyres bigger than that without a lot of cutting though but the gearing works well.
I was on borrowed tires so didn't mess with the Map. My personal set of wheels/tires that are 28" so I should be fine it was just the set of circumstances that forced me to run on those 26s. By the time I shift into 5th, I'm almost across the line so it is pointless.
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