AP brake pad replacement

[mfp4073]

My Monaro was fitted with APs a couple of months ago, and I'm already a bit fed up with the huge amount of dust they make.
Now, if the brake performance when cold was anything to write home about id be happy enough and leave things as they are, however as I'm not impressed with either I'm now looking for a different brake pad compound.
I'm looking for a pad that has, good initial grab when cold. Low noise and low dust levels if possible.
The car has Ferodo DS 2500's at the moment, so I've been considering Pedders, sports Ryder's, or Carbon Lorrain RS5+
Has anyone has any experience of these or possibly any other make?

John

Edited by mfp4073 on Thursday 27th September 15:48

Edited by mfp4073 on Thursday 27th September 15:53

Edited by mfp4073 on Thursday 27th September 19:00

[mfp4073]

Lincsls1 said:

This is quite off putting really. Was looking to fit AP's to my Ro.
How can they not be noticeably better than the stock even VXR brakes? They are much bigger for a start giving a leverage advantage and that's before considering the larger contact areas.
What are the basic pads supplied with the AP kit? Are DS2500 an optional upgrade? Thought they were supposed to be really good.

The brakes are good from high speeds when warm, but hot or cold low speed braking feel and performance are no different from my old stock set up. Driving around town the brakes feel dead, I was expecting great things from AP's, hopefully a pad change will sort things out.

Edited by mfp4073 on Thursday 27th September 19:01

[mfp4073]

stevieturbo said:

I've never been impressed with the DS2500's on any car. Nor even AP's own pads.

Give Paul a shout to try the Carbon Lorraine's, RC5 would be a decent choice as lets face it, unless you're doing serious track use, the brakes will never be getting that hot.

Or the old faithful Mintex 1144 are still a good pad despite being many years old.

Stevieturbo,

Thanks for that, I'll check out the Mintex job's, but I like the sound of the RC5 pads.
I wonder why AP supply the Ferodo pads if there are better ones out there? and why do Monaro owners rate them so highly?

John

[mfp4073]

JAMESHSV1 said:

The Ap kit for the monaros are a good price new and which I find work very well.Do you have braided lines fitted

JAMESHSV,

Yes, I already had the braided lines fitted prior to fitting the AP's.
I have been driving my brothers 2016 Mustang GT which has 6 pot Brembo's fitted. When you touch that brake pedal you certainly know you have uprated brakes. I was expecting the AP's to be the similar.

John

[mfp4073]

stevieturbo said:

That will largely be down to pad material. Race pads just arent a great choice for the road and this is one reason why.

That said, I went from RC6's to RC8's at the front and the cold bite actually improved which was very surprising, but as a more aggressive pad they will wear and eat the discs quicker, and waste produced can be harder to clean up. So RC5's or a similar fast road type pad would be a better choice for a daily.

That's quite interesting about the Mustang brake pad, but it makes sense to have a user friendly pad in a new car. I will ask ford what pad they actually use, mind you that might be in the too hard box for a quick answer. I was considering the Pedders sports Ryder as a cheaper option, as it may be more like the Mustang pad, a good initial bite when cold, but good enough for when things heat up!!!!

[mfp4073]

Lincsls1 said:

This is quite off putting really. Was looking to fit AP's to my Ro.
How can they not be noticeably better than the stock even VXR brakes? They are much bigger for a start giving a leverage advantage and that's before considering the larger contact areas.
What are the basic pads supplied with the AP kit? Are DS2500 an optional upgrade? Thought they were supposed to be really good.

Lincsls 1,

Please don't be put off buying a set of AP's just because of my opinion. Don't forget there are plenty of people who are more than happy with them.
I have found when fully warmed up they will haul you down from high speed without issue, probably all day long.
I have braked heavily from about 70-80 mph down to zero, and I doubt you could really stop much quicker as the tyres have only so much grip to offer, and I'm on Michelin pilots!.
My issue is really with the lack initial bite especially around town. But you have to remember that's probably the trade off you have when you have a brake pad that can take some high temperature abuse.
Hopefully a pad change will sort the job out, but that will have to wait until next year as I've blown my Monaro budget for this year.

Regards John

[mfp4073]

I have fitted front and rear Pedders ceramic brake pads to my AP's, and have just completed the bedding in procedure.
Straight away the lack of black brake dust is quite amazing compared to the DS2500's compound.
As for the braking itself there is a slight improvement in braking feel but it's not massive. I'll put a few more miles on the car before I try any high speed braking.
Overal a slight improvement and I would recommend ceramic pads especially if you like cleaner wheels.
Again I drove my brothers Mustang ( yesterday ) and when I came to my first stop the instant grab from the brakes is totally different to the Monaro. It must have a lot of servo assistance in comparison.
Anyway another job done.

[mfp4073]

Lincsls1 said:

^^^Thanks for the update on this.
Interesting to know, I did enquire about these pads and having them fitted with the AP kit straight from new, but the kit comes complete with the DS2500's, the supplier wouldn't split the kit and I couldn't justify the extra cost of the Pedders pads on top of the £2.5k already paid out! Maybe I could have sold the standard pads easily enough, I'll probably regret not doing this soon enough!

Yep I feel your pain, it's a real kick in the pods having to replace new brake pads. Mine only had 1500 miles on them.
Anyway I'll report back with any updates.

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 3rd July 20:04

[mfp4073]

I decided to do some braking tests today, I used the AP bedding in procedure. When the brakes are cool or have been warmed up everything is fine. However, once the brakes become hot I can hear a rotational grinding noise from the front offside wheel?
When the brakes cool off again the noise goes away.
I've had the wheel off and everything looks OK. This only started when I put in new brake pads.
I'm thinking maybe the central alloy bell expands through high temps, it then just catches the brake pad backing plate causing the noise?
Has anyone on hear had a similar issue?

Edited by mfp4073 on Saturday 6th July 18:59

[mfp4073]

Lincsls1 said:

Might be just worth throwing the 'old' original pads back on John and just confirming that it is the new pads causing the issue? I wonder if there is a tolerance issue with the size of the pads/backing plates etc. compared with the DS2500's?
Or, and I know not strictly recommended, but swap the pads around, see if the issue disappears.
It might be possible to remove a little material from what ever seems to be catching.
I'm just sorry you seem to be having trouble with what's supposed to be a proven brake solution for these cars and being that the kit is pretty much new.

Yes I was considering swapping the pads back to the DS2500's and maybe even swap the ceramic pads from left to right as well. It does seem odd the problem started with the new pads. I will have ago next week and see what happens.
It is a bit annoying to be messing around with a new brake kit but I'll get it sorted eventually. "keep calm and carry on" as they say.
Your brakes should be bedded in by now, one thing I did notice is that you can overwhelm the ABS system if you really get carried away and stand on them !!!!!! and that was on a warm dry day.
Anyway as its dry tomorrow I'm off out for a long cruise around Northumbeland, that should clear out all eight cylinders if nothing else.

John

[mfp4073]

Just an update on my AP saga. I'll condense the story here to make it easier to follow.
When I had my AP kit fitted last year I carried out the required beding in procedure.
There was one occasion when I heard a strange noise coming from the brakes, I put this down to heat in the pads, as it disappeared fairly quickly once they had cooled off.
I drove the car for a couple of months without any enthusiastic braking and all seemed well. The car was then garaged and spent 8 months off the road.
This month I put the car back on the road and replaced my DS2500's with Pedders ceramic pads all round. ( less dust with ceramics )They were bedded in as per pedders instructions.
I then tried the AP's bedding in procedure for comparison which is more involved and generates more heat. I again noticed that the strange grinding noise was back. Once the brakes had cooled off everything was fine again.
I got back home and examined the calipers I took the driver side brake pads out, and removed the caliper and I then found the reason for the noise.
The actual disc had ground a groove into the underside of the caliper itself and was chewing it up as the disc expanded due to heat.
I'm glad I found the problem but.....how to sort it out?
The saga continues.

Edited by mfp4073 on Friday 12th July 14:43

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 08:25

[mfp4073]

Yes this is an odd one!!!! I thought about shims but a left or right movement won't work, I need a to move the caliper forward and away from edge of the disc. I can't really see how to do that.
Hopefully as there is still a few days left on the warranty I might get the job sorted that way?
We shall see.

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 08:27

[mfp4073]

Yes you are correct, the calipers need to be drilled out to fit the CV8. It is a possibility they were drilled slightly out, but I'm not convinced about that one.
I have a feeling it's a manufacturing issue, I guess AP will want to examine it and make a decision.
I can imagine it's going to be a right pain to sort it all out.
Thanks for your suggestions, but before I do anything I'll see how the warranty pans out just in case.

John

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 08:28

[mfp4073]

Yet another update....
AP have examined my problematic brake caliper and have stated that it is within their specification albeit at the edge of the factory tolerance level.
As Walkinshaw had to drill out the mounting bracket they viewed this as a none approved modification and therefore the factory warranty is now void.
Walkinshaw stand by their modification and in their opinion the mounting holes were drilled correctly and they are of the opinion the caliper had a fault.
Thankfully I received a new AP caliper today and it fits perfectly. The join were the two halfs of the caliper match together is also perfectly in line.
I fitted it all back together and brakes feel a lot better than before. I carried out the bedding in procedure a couple of times just to really heat everything up, and thankfully there was no grinding of the disc into the underside of the caliper.
Tomorrow I'll bleed the system again as there are still a few air bubbles to get rid off.
So a big thankyou to Dave Elston at Walkinshaw performance for helping me out it was more than appreciated.
As for AP, I can see their point of view, but when you looked at the caliper it was clearly not right.

Edited by mfp4073 on Thursday 1st August 18:35

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 08:30

[mfp4073]

A big thankyou to Dave Elston at Walkishaw Performance for helping me out with my AP brake caliper
See a separate post on "AP brake pad replacement" for all the gory details.

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 08:31

[mfp4073]

George Smiley said:

It seems people are confusing the feeling they get from brake boosters vs what a big brake kit does.

The APs will help avoid fade and will scrub off speed better but under normal application you’ll be pushed to notice. Also any carbon pad will give even less feel at low speeds and give ste response unless warm.

Ds2500 are good, yellow stuff are good, ap brakes are good. The amount of servo assist means you get good pedal feed back.

If you want the binary brakes of a car 20 years newer then buy a newer car or learn to use these brakes and the benefit of feel they give. Most people don’t even know how to emergency stop.

I was out in my car yesterday and only did slow town driving in day to day traffic.
Since having just changed my AP caliper I noticed a world of difference in brake feel and stopping ability compared to the faulty one and that was with cold pads.
The new pedders ceramic pads are first rate too even when cold the lack of dust is very impressive and they are completely quiet in operation.
As I've said a few times when I first fitted the AP's I was expecting to just touch the brake pedal and feel their instant stopping power with very little to no brake pedal travel, especially when you take into account how big the set up is.
However, as these brakes are really track focused when you think about it if you had that instant grab everytime you touched the brakes you no doubt would unbalance the car.
So as you say I did confuse the feeling of the brake booster with what a big brake kit does which is to allow a driver to continue to use the brakes without them fading out every two minutes.
So that wrong assumption compounded with a faulty caliper led to this long discussion. Hopefully it will be of interest to some owners, and yes after all the hassle I've had I'm glad I've got AP brakes.

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 08:22

[mfp4073]

George Smiley said:

Glad it’s fixed

You will get more surface rust, this simply means a bit of brake trailing to resolve, the discs don’t warp

Yes I rember reading the avalanche of complaints about AP brake disc warp years ago. If I remember correctly the problem iwas caused by brake pad transfer causing high spots on the disc?
As far as rust goes I'll keep the discs nice and clean.

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 08:43

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 10:05

[mfp4073]

RipGMH said:

My mechanic advised that rather than break gently to ‘protect’ the brakes with good brakes you want to brake a bit later and heavier to avoid glazing the disks.

Good advice, I brake as normal for day to day driving, but on a quiet road you can brake harder and deglaze the pads when required.

Edited by mfp4073 on Wednesday 14th August 18:12

[mfp4073]

George Smiley said:

Your mechanic is talking out of his arse.

Normal braking is good practice, late braking if you are on the track or spanking it. If you get surface spots, which you will, the easiest way to clear it is go up and down one junction of the motorway, trailing on the brakes from 70 gradually slowing down to 50 a few times followed by some stabbing on and off, followed by trailing. Repeat on the return, jobs done.

Alternately pour oil over the disks to keep them rust free but don't cry when you don't stop. disks will be shiney

What's your opinion on ceramic brake pads? I believe? that they wll not cause any issues due to pad transfer on AP's, something to do with the resin that bonds the compound together?........obviously I could be completely wrong