Arggh Clutch - Let the mods begin!
Discussion
Hi Everyone,
I'd like to introduce myself, I'm Oli and I am the proud owner of this 07 V8 Vantage 4.3:
I got her at with 4500 on the clock and she has been more or less my daily driver for the last two years. My daily commute is about 70 miles mostly motorway and I have also done some fun and sometimes spirited trips away which have included Le Mans and Spa.
My enjoyment of ownership has thus far only been marred by the frustrating fact that whenever I want to downchange, dabbing the throttle with the side of my shoe - a technique that has historically proved effective in any other make of sports car, seems to have no effect at all on the engine. I feel obliged to plan downchanges long enough in advance that I may write to the ECU and cordially request an increase in engine revs before I can change gear. This process whilst appropriately formal for such a Gentleman's marque is distinctly irritating.
Shortly after purchase, I was excited to learn about the possibility of massively sharpening the throttle response by fitting a lightweight flywheel and clutch so I set about wearing out my clutch as fast as possible*:
(*joke)
I actually reckon that I could count on one hand (ok, maybe both hands) the amount of times I have done a standing start including the three runs up the 'pod I did, so I was [slightly**] annoyed that after just over 30k miles and two weeks before Christmas, the clutch went from perfectly functional to not allowing me to change gear without rev-matching in the space of about 30miles. The journey to work the next day through north London traffic was fun, as I needed to stop the engine at every set of traffic lights and re-start in first to get going again.
(**massively)
With DMS no longer around I phoned 4 or 5 different dealers to ask about clutch replacement and most of them didn't think that 30k was excessively low mileage for replacement. In the course of my research one place stood out from the rest as being knowledgeable and keen to help when it came to replacement - Bamford Rose. Mike was very patient and answered all of my questions relating to the original clutch, and also what options he was able to provide in the form of a lightweight flywheel and substantially stronger (and longer lasting) twin-plate clutch. We also discussed the benefits that the Bamford Rose exhaust Manifold & Cats would bring in conjunction with Air-intake modification to further improve throttle response and torque.
I carefully considered my options over the next week and decided that since I was doing so many miles and would doubtless need to replace the clutch again by the time I came to sell, the extra investment in the uprated clutch would hopefully pay off in the long term. I took the plunge and called Mike and booked in for the full package of Lightweight Flywheel, Uprated Twin-Plate clutch, Air intake modification and BR manifolds and cats. I will be retaining the original back-box as I want to keep the switchable exhaust valves.
During the patient wait for my turn to come around, Mike mentioned that he had a slightly modified new exhaust system in the works but it is not due for delivery for about a month and would I like to wait to try it out? The answer was obviously yes!
As this will be the first 4.3 to be fitted with the lightweight flywheel and clutch along with the exhaust, we decided we will do the conversion in stages:
1. Dyno run to measure totally standard car power output.
2. Fit Lightweight Clutch and Flywheel and intake mods
3. Dyno run to measure increased power due to intake mods.
4. Fit Manifolds and high flow Cats
5. Dyno run to measure increased power due to exhaust mods.
This will enable us to see exactly how the new exhaust performs, and also the real world benefit of the intake mods which are similar to the AM power upgrade.
I would like to mention that I have no connection with Bamford Rose, I am writing this up in the hope that it will help anyone else whose clutch has gone or is thinking about any of the upgrades that I am having.
I will keep you all posted.
Mike- If there is anything which you would like to elaborate on, please be my guest.
Thanks for reading,
Oli.
I'd like to introduce myself, I'm Oli and I am the proud owner of this 07 V8 Vantage 4.3:
I got her at with 4500 on the clock and she has been more or less my daily driver for the last two years. My daily commute is about 70 miles mostly motorway and I have also done some fun and sometimes spirited trips away which have included Le Mans and Spa.
My enjoyment of ownership has thus far only been marred by the frustrating fact that whenever I want to downchange, dabbing the throttle with the side of my shoe - a technique that has historically proved effective in any other make of sports car, seems to have no effect at all on the engine. I feel obliged to plan downchanges long enough in advance that I may write to the ECU and cordially request an increase in engine revs before I can change gear. This process whilst appropriately formal for such a Gentleman's marque is distinctly irritating.
Shortly after purchase, I was excited to learn about the possibility of massively sharpening the throttle response by fitting a lightweight flywheel and clutch so I set about wearing out my clutch as fast as possible*:
(*joke)
I actually reckon that I could count on one hand (ok, maybe both hands) the amount of times I have done a standing start including the three runs up the 'pod I did, so I was [slightly**] annoyed that after just over 30k miles and two weeks before Christmas, the clutch went from perfectly functional to not allowing me to change gear without rev-matching in the space of about 30miles. The journey to work the next day through north London traffic was fun, as I needed to stop the engine at every set of traffic lights and re-start in first to get going again.
(**massively)
With DMS no longer around I phoned 4 or 5 different dealers to ask about clutch replacement and most of them didn't think that 30k was excessively low mileage for replacement. In the course of my research one place stood out from the rest as being knowledgeable and keen to help when it came to replacement - Bamford Rose. Mike was very patient and answered all of my questions relating to the original clutch, and also what options he was able to provide in the form of a lightweight flywheel and substantially stronger (and longer lasting) twin-plate clutch. We also discussed the benefits that the Bamford Rose exhaust Manifold & Cats would bring in conjunction with Air-intake modification to further improve throttle response and torque.
I carefully considered my options over the next week and decided that since I was doing so many miles and would doubtless need to replace the clutch again by the time I came to sell, the extra investment in the uprated clutch would hopefully pay off in the long term. I took the plunge and called Mike and booked in for the full package of Lightweight Flywheel, Uprated Twin-Plate clutch, Air intake modification and BR manifolds and cats. I will be retaining the original back-box as I want to keep the switchable exhaust valves.
During the patient wait for my turn to come around, Mike mentioned that he had a slightly modified new exhaust system in the works but it is not due for delivery for about a month and would I like to wait to try it out? The answer was obviously yes!
As this will be the first 4.3 to be fitted with the lightweight flywheel and clutch along with the exhaust, we decided we will do the conversion in stages:
1. Dyno run to measure totally standard car power output.
2. Fit Lightweight Clutch and Flywheel and intake mods
3. Dyno run to measure increased power due to intake mods.
4. Fit Manifolds and high flow Cats
5. Dyno run to measure increased power due to exhaust mods.
This will enable us to see exactly how the new exhaust performs, and also the real world benefit of the intake mods which are similar to the AM power upgrade.
I would like to mention that I have no connection with Bamford Rose, I am writing this up in the hope that it will help anyone else whose clutch has gone or is thinking about any of the upgrades that I am having.
I will keep you all posted.
Mike- If there is anything which you would like to elaborate on, please be my guest.
Thanks for reading,
Oli.
Hooray! the day has arrived!
Mike and Adrian from Bamford Rose came to visit earlier in the week.
We loaded my sick car on to the trailer and took her down to AMD for a power run.
When we came to unload at AMD, the clutch problem had mysteriously vanished, and after not being able to select any gears while the engine was running, the clutch now worked perfectly. This made unloading much easier but it did make me wonder whether I should be spending money on a new clutch or or whether I could get away with driving it like it is!
We put it on the rollers and did several power runs to get a base power figure so that we could judge the increase in power from the exhaust and intake mods.
The noise was nothing short of amazing. I can't wait to hear the second time with the new exhaust!
On the first run the correction factors for air temp and barometric pressure were not right and we didn't get a meaningful power figure. We adjusted the correction factors but unfortunately the wheels then started slipping on the rollers. The guys from AMD adjusted the tie down straps and had some sticky stuff to srpay on the tyres that stopped them slipping but by the time we got a good run we were only getting about 365bhp adjusted flywheel power. We think this was because we had already done about six or seven power runs and the engine intake temps were now quite high. Mike kindly offered to take the uncorrected data from the very first power run when the wheels didn't slip to calculate the adjusted flywheel bhp, so we should soon be able to see what base power we will be improving from!
Oli.
Mike and Adrian from Bamford Rose came to visit earlier in the week.
We loaded my sick car on to the trailer and took her down to AMD for a power run.
When we came to unload at AMD, the clutch problem had mysteriously vanished, and after not being able to select any gears while the engine was running, the clutch now worked perfectly. This made unloading much easier but it did make me wonder whether I should be spending money on a new clutch or or whether I could get away with driving it like it is!
We put it on the rollers and did several power runs to get a base power figure so that we could judge the increase in power from the exhaust and intake mods.
The noise was nothing short of amazing. I can't wait to hear the second time with the new exhaust!
On the first run the correction factors for air temp and barometric pressure were not right and we didn't get a meaningful power figure. We adjusted the correction factors but unfortunately the wheels then started slipping on the rollers. The guys from AMD adjusted the tie down straps and had some sticky stuff to srpay on the tyres that stopped them slipping but by the time we got a good run we were only getting about 365bhp adjusted flywheel power. We think this was because we had already done about six or seven power runs and the engine intake temps were now quite high. Mike kindly offered to take the uncorrected data from the very first power run when the wheels didn't slip to calculate the adjusted flywheel bhp, so we should soon be able to see what base power we will be improving from!
Oli.
Hi,
I have now had the car back for a few weeks now, and I thought I’d give an update as to how the Bamford Rose lightweight flywheel and twin plate clutch have improved the car.
The car was in for a few days, and once stripped down, the cause of failure of the old clutch was clear. One of the small springs in the centre that damps rotational vibrations had snapped and jammed in the clutch mechanism damaging the friction plate and also scoring the flywheel.
Old flywheel:
The friction plate on the old clutch still had another about 10k in but would have to be replaced along with the flywheel because of the damage caused by the broken spring. With the cost of the BR clutch and flywheel being not too far off the cost of the original AM flywheel and clutch, it was a no-brainer to go for the upgraded parts.
Here is the new flywheel as fitted to the V8 Vantage GT4 race car:
And with the new twin plate clutch fitted:
The first thing I noticed is that the new clutch needs about half the effort to press down! I know that worn out clutches are heavy by comparison, but this is so much lighter than the factory one was even when new. This makes it so much easier to drive round town and in stop start traffic.
Another advantage which I was not expecting is that when changing gear, the box goes between the gears so much faster than before. With the old clutch, I felt as if I had to hold the gear stick against the gate for a fraction of a second before the gear stick would move in to the new gear. This delay in engaging gears is now almost completely gone.
I expect that this is because when you change gear and you move the gear stick out of the first gear, as you push the gear stick against the gate of the new gear, the synchromesh in the gearbox has to speed up or slow down the input shaft and clutch so that it matches speed with the new gear. This causes a delay in the gear shift where the gear stick feels like it can't be pushed into the new gear for a fraction of a second. Because the clutch is now much lighter, the synchros can match the speed much faster and the new gear is ready to go in almost straight away.
The new clutch and flywheel are significantly lighter than the factory items. As can be seen in the pictures the twin plate clutch pack is smaller in diameter which moves a significant amount of mass nearer to the centre line. This means that it takes less torque to spin it up and slow it down with changes in engine speed. The result of this is that the engine feels more lively and responsive. It is now much easier to heel and toe, as when you dab the throttle to raise the engine revs to engage a lower gear, the engine now spins up faster than before making it much easier to make quick downshifts.
To measure exactly how much faster the engine spins up, Mike connected a data logger to the car and measured the time taken for the engine to accelerate from idle to the rev limit with the old and the new clutch and flywheel. The time was measured as the engine revs climbed past 1500 up to the red line. The new clutch and flywheel the engine speed climbed 20% faster!
In short, I am definitely pleased with the results and really happy that I decided to go for the lightweight flywheel and clutch over the factory items. I got the driveability that I was looking for with the easier heel and toe plus the added and completely unexpected advantage of the lighter clutch pedal and significantly easier and faster gear changes.
I’m looking forward to getting the car back in next week to have the new exhaust manifold and cats fitted as this should throw some more power in to the mix to complete the package.
Oli.
I have now had the car back for a few weeks now, and I thought I’d give an update as to how the Bamford Rose lightweight flywheel and twin plate clutch have improved the car.
The car was in for a few days, and once stripped down, the cause of failure of the old clutch was clear. One of the small springs in the centre that damps rotational vibrations had snapped and jammed in the clutch mechanism damaging the friction plate and also scoring the flywheel.
Old flywheel:
The friction plate on the old clutch still had another about 10k in but would have to be replaced along with the flywheel because of the damage caused by the broken spring. With the cost of the BR clutch and flywheel being not too far off the cost of the original AM flywheel and clutch, it was a no-brainer to go for the upgraded parts.
Here is the new flywheel as fitted to the V8 Vantage GT4 race car:
And with the new twin plate clutch fitted:
The first thing I noticed is that the new clutch needs about half the effort to press down! I know that worn out clutches are heavy by comparison, but this is so much lighter than the factory one was even when new. This makes it so much easier to drive round town and in stop start traffic.
Another advantage which I was not expecting is that when changing gear, the box goes between the gears so much faster than before. With the old clutch, I felt as if I had to hold the gear stick against the gate for a fraction of a second before the gear stick would move in to the new gear. This delay in engaging gears is now almost completely gone.
I expect that this is because when you change gear and you move the gear stick out of the first gear, as you push the gear stick against the gate of the new gear, the synchromesh in the gearbox has to speed up or slow down the input shaft and clutch so that it matches speed with the new gear. This causes a delay in the gear shift where the gear stick feels like it can't be pushed into the new gear for a fraction of a second. Because the clutch is now much lighter, the synchros can match the speed much faster and the new gear is ready to go in almost straight away.
The new clutch and flywheel are significantly lighter than the factory items. As can be seen in the pictures the twin plate clutch pack is smaller in diameter which moves a significant amount of mass nearer to the centre line. This means that it takes less torque to spin it up and slow it down with changes in engine speed. The result of this is that the engine feels more lively and responsive. It is now much easier to heel and toe, as when you dab the throttle to raise the engine revs to engage a lower gear, the engine now spins up faster than before making it much easier to make quick downshifts.
To measure exactly how much faster the engine spins up, Mike connected a data logger to the car and measured the time taken for the engine to accelerate from idle to the rev limit with the old and the new clutch and flywheel. The time was measured as the engine revs climbed past 1500 up to the red line. The new clutch and flywheel the engine speed climbed 20% faster!
In short, I am definitely pleased with the results and really happy that I decided to go for the lightweight flywheel and clutch over the factory items. I got the driveability that I was looking for with the easier heel and toe plus the added and completely unexpected advantage of the lighter clutch pedal and significantly easier and faster gear changes.
I’m looking forward to getting the car back in next week to have the new exhaust manifold and cats fitted as this should throw some more power in to the mix to complete the package.
Oli.
New Bamford Rose equal length exhaust manifold has arrived!
pics here...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
pics here...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
BamfordMike said:
PistonHead member OliHall is the owner of the latest car in for the Bamford Rose designed and developed exhaust manifolds and catalyst for V8 Vantage.
Despite successfully and reliably improving many 4.3 and 4.7L vantages with our MKI system, we wanted to up the ante and sought for the production of future systems to replicate in terms of finish and quality the render system we use for marketing.
http://www.bamfordrose.com/index.php?option=com_co...
A mean feat...! but success....
Oli's car has already been improved with the Bamford Rose lightweight flywheel and twinplate heavy duty clutch ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ), a power run on a dyno was conducted prior to this mod and gives us a baseline to report the power improvement of our new work of art exhaust manifold.....
Despite successfully and reliably improving many 4.3 and 4.7L vantages with our MKI system, we wanted to up the ante and sought for the production of future systems to replicate in terms of finish and quality the render system we use for marketing.
http://www.bamfordrose.com/index.php?option=com_co...
A mean feat...! but success....
Oli's car has already been improved with the Bamford Rose lightweight flywheel and twinplate heavy duty clutch ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ), a power run on a dyno was conducted prior to this mod and gives us a baseline to report the power improvement of our new work of art exhaust manifold.....
Edited by BamfordMike on Sunday 11th March 21:14
yaeger said:
Dare I ask the cost of these items in particular the new clutch ? PM if you wish ..
I am definately considering this now as an option for myself.
Hi,I am definately considering this now as an option for myself.
The twin plate clutch and lightweight flywheel was £3500 +vat including fitting and all the necessary new bolts and seals. I'm fairly sure that this also included a new genuine AM hydraulic release bearing (like a clutch slave cylinder).
When I first started to have a problem with the clutch, I phoned three different dealers to get quotes. The main dealer I phoned in London quoted 2200 +vat, and two independents quoted 1915 +vat and 2000 +vat. All these included the clutch and release bearing but not the flywheel as I did not know at the time that the flywheel was knackered.
I believe that the flywheel is about £300 + vat, plus a little extra labour to remove and re-fit. Once you add that on I was up to around 2300-2500 +vat.
So all in, the uprated package was about £1000 +vat more than the standard option. At the time I was thinking that it was normal wear that had caused the clutch to go after 30k, and since I would be keeping the car for another few years, at that rate it would need a new clutch every two years.
Great mirth was found by my friends in the fact that I was averaging about 33p per mile in petrol plus another 10p per mile in clutch!!
The extra cost now should pay for itself in the long run since the new clutch will only have to last an extra 12k above the standard unit and it will have paid for itself and all the extra driveability will come free!
Mike reckons that over 90% of the power gains from the Bamford Rose full exhaust system come from the equal length manifold and 200 cel catalysts. It has been discussed before on here that while the backbox is a benefit due to it’s considerable weight saving, it doesn’t actually give much more than a few extra BHP and it is also quite loud for use on a daily driver. On Mike’s advice, I opted to keep the original back box and therefore retain the switchable exhaust valves. The Manifold and Cats without the backbox fitted are £4500 +vat.
I'm really hoping that the clutch, flywheel and exhaust should make the car as fast and sound a little better than a 4.7 for a fraction of the cost that I would have to spend to trade up to an actual 4.7. I am really looking forward to getting the car back on the rolling road and seeing what the power gains are and seeing what difference they make on the road!
Oli.
Edited by OliHall on Tuesday 13th March 09:19
I just picked my car up from having the new exhaust fitted. OMFG does it make the most amazing noise in the world!
I have kept the original backbox and so I have kept the switchable exhaust valves. I can't believe how quiet it still can be with the valves closed when it sounds to amazing when they are open. I would say that it is almost as quiet as before with the valves closed, but with the valves open, it sounds like a V8 touring car! I cannot describe how good it sounds - I spent most of the pre-handover test drive with uncontrollable giggles as I drove to the petrol station and back (I was on my own at the time).
It is noticeably quicker than before, especially at the top of the rev range. Whereas before there didn't seem like much more power was available above about 5k, it now surges up to the redline. It is also much quicker to go up through the gears because of the light flywheel.
Just before Christmas, I had the geometry done at a local pace to me and unfortunately I found out later that the settings in their alignment computer were incorrect which has made the car very twitchy in high speed corners. I wanted to get the geometry reset to the correct settings before really testing out the new power gains, so I drove it back down to where I live and we put it up on the alignment ramp, unfortunately one of the front lower arm adjustment bolts sheared as we were undoing it so I am just waiting for another cam bolt to be delivered so that we can get it back on the road. I must say I was a bit disappointed to have to leave it in the garage all weekend after just getting it back!
Has anyone else had any problems with the lower arm cam bolts shearing?
I know there was a recall in the US on this part, but I haven’t heard anything about it over here. Also, does anyone know the correct torque setting for all of the the cam bolts?
I think that the guy just did them up FT last time, so I want to make sure that they are all torqued correctly this time.
I will report back as soon as I get it back on the road again.
Oli.
I have kept the original backbox and so I have kept the switchable exhaust valves. I can't believe how quiet it still can be with the valves closed when it sounds to amazing when they are open. I would say that it is almost as quiet as before with the valves closed, but with the valves open, it sounds like a V8 touring car! I cannot describe how good it sounds - I spent most of the pre-handover test drive with uncontrollable giggles as I drove to the petrol station and back (I was on my own at the time).
It is noticeably quicker than before, especially at the top of the rev range. Whereas before there didn't seem like much more power was available above about 5k, it now surges up to the redline. It is also much quicker to go up through the gears because of the light flywheel.
Just before Christmas, I had the geometry done at a local pace to me and unfortunately I found out later that the settings in their alignment computer were incorrect which has made the car very twitchy in high speed corners. I wanted to get the geometry reset to the correct settings before really testing out the new power gains, so I drove it back down to where I live and we put it up on the alignment ramp, unfortunately one of the front lower arm adjustment bolts sheared as we were undoing it so I am just waiting for another cam bolt to be delivered so that we can get it back on the road. I must say I was a bit disappointed to have to leave it in the garage all weekend after just getting it back!
Has anyone else had any problems with the lower arm cam bolts shearing?
I know there was a recall in the US on this part, but I haven’t heard anything about it over here. Also, does anyone know the correct torque setting for all of the the cam bolts?
I think that the guy just did them up FT last time, so I want to make sure that they are all torqued correctly this time.
I will report back as soon as I get it back on the road again.
Oli.
Hi Mikey,
thanks for the settings!
Are the torque settings the right way around?
The guy who did it is ok, he's someone I know at a local supplier and we were both doing the car together. Him and another guy were undoing the bolts while I was doing something else. You should have seen his face when it broke. I so wanted to go mental at them especially as i was going away for the weekend and now would have to take my g/f's clio, but it's just one of those things. I will get him to torque them all properly next time. I also expect that I will be getting free geometry checks for a very long time.
I am going to repace both of the vertical bolts just in case the other side is also knackered. I don't know whether to replace the two rear adjustment bolts and the front horizontal subframe bolts as a precaution. I don't know if it might have damaged the semicircular threads or stretched the bolts if they also have been done too tight. What do you think?
I just hope that the bolt will come out the top of the bush without hitting the new manifold above!?
thanks,
Oli.
thanks for the settings!
Are the torque settings the right way around?
The guy who did it is ok, he's someone I know at a local supplier and we were both doing the car together. Him and another guy were undoing the bolts while I was doing something else. You should have seen his face when it broke. I so wanted to go mental at them especially as i was going away for the weekend and now would have to take my g/f's clio, but it's just one of those things. I will get him to torque them all properly next time. I also expect that I will be getting free geometry checks for a very long time.
I am going to repace both of the vertical bolts just in case the other side is also knackered. I don't know whether to replace the two rear adjustment bolts and the front horizontal subframe bolts as a precaution. I don't know if it might have damaged the semicircular threads or stretched the bolts if they also have been done too tight. What do you think?
I just hope that the bolt will come out the top of the bush without hitting the new manifold above!?
thanks,
Oli.
Everything I normally take apart gets copper greased, but I didn't know whether it was a good idea to apply it to the cam adjusters in case it made them more likely to slip in use. what do you reckon? are they likely to get any unwanted movement when torqued if they are copper greased?
If not, I will remove them all one by one and copper grease and re-torque.
Could you look at the torques you posted, as i was sent a link to the workshop manual, and the torques are the other way around.
Oli.
If not, I will remove them all one by one and copper grease and re-torque.
Could you look at the torques you posted, as i was sent a link to the workshop manual, and the torques are the other way around.
Oli.
I changed all the cam bolt adjusters yesterday. All were really easy to replace apart from the two front castor bolts. These are the ones that go vertically through the rear bush of the lower arm.
They were both seized so tight into the metal inner collets of the bushes that it took two people to remove them. After applying penetrating oil, I turned the top adjustment bolt with as much force as I could, building up force by twisting the rubber bush while my assistant hammered upwards on the broken thread with a punch, hammering upwards with any accuracy is very difficult! But they came out after much persuasion. The other side was the similar but it wasn't quite as tight in there and was easier to hammer as the thread was longer and we were able to put a nut on the end and hammer on the nut instead of having to use the punch.
For reference it is *just* possible to remove both sides without undoing any of the Bamford Rose exhaust manifolds or jacking up the engine. I am not sure about with the standard manifold. All the other cam bolts on the front and rear were easy, and I replaced these just in case they had also been over torqued.
I reckon that the problem is caused because the bolts are D shaped to engage in the cam shaped washers to rotate them as the bolts are rotated to adjust the geometry. When the nuts are fastened, the D shaped bolt thread leaves a gap between the bolt and the nut. This gap allows salt water from the road to penetrate up the gap between the bolt and the nut and into the threads and the bush collet causing a good deal of corrosion between the shank of the bolt and the bush collet and between the thread of the bolt and the thread of the nut. I have applied copper grease to the shank and thread of the bolt and the adjusters which will hopefully stop this happening again. I am also tempted to seal the top of the nut and bolt with silicone sealant to stop the ingress of salt water up the bolt in future. All the other bolts were fine because they are in areas where they are protected against spray from the road.
We torqued the first nut on the rear camber to the correct torque of 115Nm but this seemed excessively tight and myself and the guy who was helping thought that with the addition of copper grease to the adjusters and threads that we should tighten them to the lower torque.
This morning I have learned about the difference between wet and dry torque, and that torque values should be reduced between 15-25% when copper grease has been applied to threads and washers as the friction in the thread and mating surfaces of the nut and bolt are reduced when copper grease is applied, and you don’t need to tighten the nut to as much torque to achieve the same tension in the bolt. I don’t know what torque we did tighten them to, but it felt tight enough. What do people think? Should I re-torque them? Or just leave them as they are? I have been trying to find a table to look up the wet/dry torque values of M12 threads, but I can only find imperial torque tables that show wet/dry torques.
On positive note, Last night was the first chance I have to drive the car with proper geometry for the first time since the clutch/flywheel/exhaust were fitted, and my god does it go well. Before the mods, when you hit the throttle, the power used to build up slowly and it was a second or so before the power really kicked in. Now you put your foot down and it just goes… immediately. There is so much more of a punch in the back when you boot it, and the noise is amazing.
I do about 350 miles a week to and from work so this means I spend about £500 a month on petrol. I wanted to know what difference driving at 70, 75 and 80 did to the MPG. I had previously spent a week writing down my MPG on my way to and from work where I would reset the average MPG at a certain point every time when I got on the motorway and then put it on cruise at a certain speed and most time I can do the 25 miles until I leave the motorway without touching the throttle or the brake. When I get to the junction I leave at, I write down the MPG.
Before the mods and geometry I would average a steady 25.8-26.2mpg at 70mph with no air con. First trip back today I got 27.4 and I forgot to switch the air con off until half way back. I was getting over 28mpg after switching air on off, so I think I am getting about 10% better MPG after the mods and the geometry. That’s a £2500 per year saving on fuel. Not bad!
Looking forward to getting it back to AMD to see what the power increase is!
Oli.
They were both seized so tight into the metal inner collets of the bushes that it took two people to remove them. After applying penetrating oil, I turned the top adjustment bolt with as much force as I could, building up force by twisting the rubber bush while my assistant hammered upwards on the broken thread with a punch, hammering upwards with any accuracy is very difficult! But they came out after much persuasion. The other side was the similar but it wasn't quite as tight in there and was easier to hammer as the thread was longer and we were able to put a nut on the end and hammer on the nut instead of having to use the punch.
For reference it is *just* possible to remove both sides without undoing any of the Bamford Rose exhaust manifolds or jacking up the engine. I am not sure about with the standard manifold. All the other cam bolts on the front and rear were easy, and I replaced these just in case they had also been over torqued.
I reckon that the problem is caused because the bolts are D shaped to engage in the cam shaped washers to rotate them as the bolts are rotated to adjust the geometry. When the nuts are fastened, the D shaped bolt thread leaves a gap between the bolt and the nut. This gap allows salt water from the road to penetrate up the gap between the bolt and the nut and into the threads and the bush collet causing a good deal of corrosion between the shank of the bolt and the bush collet and between the thread of the bolt and the thread of the nut. I have applied copper grease to the shank and thread of the bolt and the adjusters which will hopefully stop this happening again. I am also tempted to seal the top of the nut and bolt with silicone sealant to stop the ingress of salt water up the bolt in future. All the other bolts were fine because they are in areas where they are protected against spray from the road.
We torqued the first nut on the rear camber to the correct torque of 115Nm but this seemed excessively tight and myself and the guy who was helping thought that with the addition of copper grease to the adjusters and threads that we should tighten them to the lower torque.
This morning I have learned about the difference between wet and dry torque, and that torque values should be reduced between 15-25% when copper grease has been applied to threads and washers as the friction in the thread and mating surfaces of the nut and bolt are reduced when copper grease is applied, and you don’t need to tighten the nut to as much torque to achieve the same tension in the bolt. I don’t know what torque we did tighten them to, but it felt tight enough. What do people think? Should I re-torque them? Or just leave them as they are? I have been trying to find a table to look up the wet/dry torque values of M12 threads, but I can only find imperial torque tables that show wet/dry torques.
On positive note, Last night was the first chance I have to drive the car with proper geometry for the first time since the clutch/flywheel/exhaust were fitted, and my god does it go well. Before the mods, when you hit the throttle, the power used to build up slowly and it was a second or so before the power really kicked in. Now you put your foot down and it just goes… immediately. There is so much more of a punch in the back when you boot it, and the noise is amazing.
I do about 350 miles a week to and from work so this means I spend about £500 a month on petrol. I wanted to know what difference driving at 70, 75 and 80 did to the MPG. I had previously spent a week writing down my MPG on my way to and from work where I would reset the average MPG at a certain point every time when I got on the motorway and then put it on cruise at a certain speed and most time I can do the 25 miles until I leave the motorway without touching the throttle or the brake. When I get to the junction I leave at, I write down the MPG.
Before the mods and geometry I would average a steady 25.8-26.2mpg at 70mph with no air con. First trip back today I got 27.4 and I forgot to switch the air con off until half way back. I was getting over 28mpg after switching air on off, so I think I am getting about 10% better MPG after the mods and the geometry. That’s a £2500 per year saving on fuel. Not bad!
Looking forward to getting it back to AMD to see what the power increase is!
Oli.
I did just find a metric bolt torque for wet and dry threads. The torques are imperial lbFt, but I can convert these into Nm
http://www.cncexpo.com/MetricBoltTorque.aspx
M12 x 1.75 thread pitch 10.9 hardness bolts:
Max dry torque: 93 lbFt = 126 Nm
Max wet torque: 69 = 93.5 Nm
M14 x 2.00 thread pitch 10.9 hardness bolts:
Max dry torque: 148 lbFt = 200Nm
Max wet torque: 111 lbFt = 150.5Nm
Both of these thread sizes the wet torque is 25% less than the dry torque so the wet torque for our M12 115Nm cam bolts should be about 85Nm and the M14 185Nm front camber bolts should be 140Nm.
Next time I have the car on the ramps, I may re-torque them to this setting.
Oli.
http://www.cncexpo.com/MetricBoltTorque.aspx
M12 x 1.75 thread pitch 10.9 hardness bolts:
Max dry torque: 93 lbFt = 126 Nm
Max wet torque: 69 = 93.5 Nm
M14 x 2.00 thread pitch 10.9 hardness bolts:
Max dry torque: 148 lbFt = 200Nm
Max wet torque: 111 lbFt = 150.5Nm
Both of these thread sizes the wet torque is 25% less than the dry torque so the wet torque for our M12 115Nm cam bolts should be about 85Nm and the M14 185Nm front camber bolts should be 140Nm.
Next time I have the car on the ramps, I may re-torque them to this setting.
Oli.
Hi,
I have just had the car out for my first spirited drive since all the work has been done. All I can say is wow!
I had done a few trips to and from work since last week, but yesterday was the first time that I was able to take it out for a proper blast. One of my guys at work had broken a small part on a machine the other side of Bedford and I jumped at the chance to drive the 60 mile round trip to take him a replacement part! Of course I took the Aston instead of the work van, and after fixing the machine, I took the longest possible route back to work along some nice country roads and a really good bit of new road which has about four roundabouts with a mile of empty dual carriageway between each.
The most noticeable thing I would say is the car feels like it is about 250kg lighter than it was. This is all the improvements add together to vastly improve responsiveness, making the car feel much lighter and more sporty.
Before the changes the car had a very smooth torque curve and it accelerated in a very linear way throughout the rev range. When you hit the throttle the power took about a second to build up before you achieved full acceleration. This lazy throttle response made it very easy to drive smoothly and while it was a great GT, it always felt like a comfortable cruiser rather than sporty or exciting. The inability to heel and toe properly was one of my biggest gripes when I got the car, and after 2 and a half years I still couldn’t get it right all the time. Also when pulling away quickly if you let the clutch out too quickly, the car would bog down as much of the engine inertia was lost in heat in the clutch rather than in forward motion causing the car to smell of burnt clutch.
I am pleased to say that the recent mods have greatly improved all of these aspects. The first thing you notice is the clutch is much lighter to press down, and when you let the clutch out fast, all the inertia in the engine is transferred to the wheels almost instantly. A few times on the way back home from getting the clutch done, I accidentally chirped the back wheels when pulling away because the clutch engages much more positively than before. This means that the engine inertia is transferred into forward motion instead of into heat in the clutch. This causes the car not to bog down at this point and the lighter clutch and flywheel take much less time to spin up due to the lighter rotational mass causing it to accelerate much faster throughout the lower rev range. I got used to the clutch really quickly and it is just as road friendly as any other normal car.
The next thing you notice is that when you get to about 4k there is a noticeable increase in power right up to the red line. It is most noticeable in the higher gears as you have time to appreciate the increase in torque as the revs climb past 4k. This is a very useable increase in power because it is not too far up the rev range to be useful in normal driving. In second or third out of fast corners it is very easy now to get a bit of a drift on as the power is there straight away as soon as you get on the throttle. It is also at exactly the right point in the rev range for overtaking in 4th or 5th without having to rev the tits off it in 3rd as you did before.
Then there is the noise, oh my god it’s glorious. It is such an amazing noise and as pommehogster said before, it is so addictive. I couldn’t believe how good it sounded when I first drove it. I must admit that there have been several times when I have put it into quiet mode when leaving the house at 7am as it is a bit too loud for that time in the morning. Luckily if you leave the switch closed it is just as quiet as before until all hell breaks loose at 4k. The nice thing about it is it that in loud mode, it is actually makes a quiet burbling when cruising and at light throttle application, but it roars like anything when you boot it.
About a year before I bought the V8 I rented one for a long weekend and did about 400 miles in it. I knew it wasn’t the fastest or the most responsive and it got me lost in London for an hour while following the stupid satnav which made me late to pick up my girlfriend from her graduation. I still wanted one because I loved the whole package: the look, the nice interior, the ability to cover the miles in comfort.
At the time of buying my car if I had the option of a car with the BR clutch/flywheel/exhaust, I would have definitely paid the extra. I honestly can’t believe why AM didn’t make the V8 like this in the first place. Either they didn’t want to make it better than the DB9 at release, or they seriously wanted to dumb it down to make it more accessible for novice drivers. In my opinion it definitely makes it a faster and better option than a similar age n/a 911. It would have only cost AM a small amount on each production car and it would have put it in a totally different performance league.
If anyone is considering any of these upgrades and would like to talk, please get in touch. I am in north London / Herts / Beds area. Mike and Adrian have been great throughout the whole process and have made me feel really confident in the service they offer. Everything was really well explained at each stage of the way and when the other garage broke the camber bolts, Adrian sent out a new full set straight away – they were the only place that had them in stock out of four other AM places in London that I phoned. I would definitely recommend them and I will be back very shortly to get my regular service done.
I am hoping to get the car back down to AMD for another power run soon, will update as soon as I have results,
Thanks,
Oli.
I have just had the car out for my first spirited drive since all the work has been done. All I can say is wow!
I had done a few trips to and from work since last week, but yesterday was the first time that I was able to take it out for a proper blast. One of my guys at work had broken a small part on a machine the other side of Bedford and I jumped at the chance to drive the 60 mile round trip to take him a replacement part! Of course I took the Aston instead of the work van, and after fixing the machine, I took the longest possible route back to work along some nice country roads and a really good bit of new road which has about four roundabouts with a mile of empty dual carriageway between each.
The most noticeable thing I would say is the car feels like it is about 250kg lighter than it was. This is all the improvements add together to vastly improve responsiveness, making the car feel much lighter and more sporty.
Before the changes the car had a very smooth torque curve and it accelerated in a very linear way throughout the rev range. When you hit the throttle the power took about a second to build up before you achieved full acceleration. This lazy throttle response made it very easy to drive smoothly and while it was a great GT, it always felt like a comfortable cruiser rather than sporty or exciting. The inability to heel and toe properly was one of my biggest gripes when I got the car, and after 2 and a half years I still couldn’t get it right all the time. Also when pulling away quickly if you let the clutch out too quickly, the car would bog down as much of the engine inertia was lost in heat in the clutch rather than in forward motion causing the car to smell of burnt clutch.
I am pleased to say that the recent mods have greatly improved all of these aspects. The first thing you notice is the clutch is much lighter to press down, and when you let the clutch out fast, all the inertia in the engine is transferred to the wheels almost instantly. A few times on the way back home from getting the clutch done, I accidentally chirped the back wheels when pulling away because the clutch engages much more positively than before. This means that the engine inertia is transferred into forward motion instead of into heat in the clutch. This causes the car not to bog down at this point and the lighter clutch and flywheel take much less time to spin up due to the lighter rotational mass causing it to accelerate much faster throughout the lower rev range. I got used to the clutch really quickly and it is just as road friendly as any other normal car.
The next thing you notice is that when you get to about 4k there is a noticeable increase in power right up to the red line. It is most noticeable in the higher gears as you have time to appreciate the increase in torque as the revs climb past 4k. This is a very useable increase in power because it is not too far up the rev range to be useful in normal driving. In second or third out of fast corners it is very easy now to get a bit of a drift on as the power is there straight away as soon as you get on the throttle. It is also at exactly the right point in the rev range for overtaking in 4th or 5th without having to rev the tits off it in 3rd as you did before.
Then there is the noise, oh my god it’s glorious. It is such an amazing noise and as pommehogster said before, it is so addictive. I couldn’t believe how good it sounded when I first drove it. I must admit that there have been several times when I have put it into quiet mode when leaving the house at 7am as it is a bit too loud for that time in the morning. Luckily if you leave the switch closed it is just as quiet as before until all hell breaks loose at 4k. The nice thing about it is it that in loud mode, it is actually makes a quiet burbling when cruising and at light throttle application, but it roars like anything when you boot it.
About a year before I bought the V8 I rented one for a long weekend and did about 400 miles in it. I knew it wasn’t the fastest or the most responsive and it got me lost in London for an hour while following the stupid satnav which made me late to pick up my girlfriend from her graduation. I still wanted one because I loved the whole package: the look, the nice interior, the ability to cover the miles in comfort.
At the time of buying my car if I had the option of a car with the BR clutch/flywheel/exhaust, I would have definitely paid the extra. I honestly can’t believe why AM didn’t make the V8 like this in the first place. Either they didn’t want to make it better than the DB9 at release, or they seriously wanted to dumb it down to make it more accessible for novice drivers. In my opinion it definitely makes it a faster and better option than a similar age n/a 911. It would have only cost AM a small amount on each production car and it would have put it in a totally different performance league.
If anyone is considering any of these upgrades and would like to talk, please get in touch. I am in north London / Herts / Beds area. Mike and Adrian have been great throughout the whole process and have made me feel really confident in the service they offer. Everything was really well explained at each stage of the way and when the other garage broke the camber bolts, Adrian sent out a new full set straight away – they were the only place that had them in stock out of four other AM places in London that I phoned. I would definitely recommend them and I will be back very shortly to get my regular service done.
I am hoping to get the car back down to AMD for another power run soon, will update as soon as I have results,
Thanks,
Oli.
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