Andy Palmer "launched an investigation" re "Works"
Discussion
Regarding modified classics in general, DVLA has published their draft guidance re cars that have substantial changes. Major implications, especially for vehicles modified but not notified to DVLA previously. Literally, every Zagato, DB4 GT, and Volante/Convertible recreation since 1983 created from a standard DB4/5/6 saloon, that has not gone through DVLA process is going to have issues as they have either had 5 inches taken from chassis or have a modified chassis.
Have created an article here that has links to DVLA source and covers, I believe, what is happening. Please share as it looks like within 20 months DVLA will have a good handle on their car database and all classic car owners that have mods need to be aware.
What is most worrying is that the proposal, to be implemented next year, is for car owners to declare yearly that their car has not had "substantial change", I believe within 8 point rule, since 1988. If you lie, then the MOT station may be required to report, I believe, cars not as described.
Loads of Aston Martin cars may be affected by this scenario.
Have created an article here that has links to DVLA source and covers, I believe, what is happening. Please share as it looks like within 20 months DVLA will have a good handle on their car database and all classic car owners that have mods need to be aware.
What is most worrying is that the proposal, to be implemented next year, is for car owners to declare yearly that their car has not had "substantial change", I believe within 8 point rule, since 1988. If you lie, then the MOT station may be required to report, I believe, cars not as described.
Loads of Aston Martin cars may be affected by this scenario.
It is all here - at present. Will probably get more onerous shortly. Incredibly simple. Since 1983 Q was introduced and there were probably rules before. New info from DVLA covers this grey area. What is required to retain a vehicle ID is compliance with eight point rule of which "5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame". Therefore, every single Zagato, DB4 GT or convertible/Volante recreation from a saloon DB4/5/6 is in trouble unless notified to DVLA and gone through BIVA/IVA procedure. They are all Q at best. My article above explains what happened re DVLA yesterday.
Within 20 months, most of these issues will crystallise and there will be innocent people holding cars that they thought were worth X and are now worth X- Y%. Y will be large. Can imagine a litigation gold mine re all of this. Have found 17 million pounds worth of cars myself without looking too hard.
Within 20 months, most of these issues will crystallise and there will be innocent people holding cars that they thought were worth X and are now worth X- Y%. Y will be large. Can imagine a litigation gold mine re all of this. Have found 17 million pounds worth of cars myself without looking too hard.
Edited by SDB660 on Friday 15th September 01:21
Key dates are 1983 when Q came in, 1998 when SVA was introduced and the year following next May.
I do not know why Q came about, but at a guess would say it was to cut down on "cut and shuts". Q rules were put in writing with INF26 in early 1990's, so since at least 1983, it has been the case that if you cut a car in half and join it back together you are in Q territory. Shortening a chassis brings in other issues that make getting a Q more if you will excuse the pun, clear cut.
From May next year, these proposals will come into play with perhaps minor alterations (consultation finished in 2016) and owners of modified cars will have the choice every year to tick a box that says something like substantially altered which will lead to DVLA asking for more information on the car, or lie.
The extra procedures they speak about to catch people would I guess involve MOT time.
I do not know why Q came about, but at a guess would say it was to cut down on "cut and shuts". Q rules were put in writing with INF26 in early 1990's, so since at least 1983, it has been the case that if you cut a car in half and join it back together you are in Q territory. Shortening a chassis brings in other issues that make getting a Q more if you will excuse the pun, clear cut.
From May next year, these proposals will come into play with perhaps minor alterations (consultation finished in 2016) and owners of modified cars will have the choice every year to tick a box that says something like substantially altered which will lead to DVLA asking for more information on the car, or lie.
The extra procedures they speak about to catch people would I guess involve MOT time.
Dynamic Space Wizard said:
SDB660 said:
Key dates are 1983 when Q came in, 1998 when SVA was introduced and the year following next May.
I do not know why Q came about, but at a guess would say it was to cut down on "cut and shuts".
'Q' registrations were used ages before 1983, and they were applied to vehicles that didn't have an exact year of manufacture. If a vehicle was made from parts of more than one old vehicle, or was imported and the exact age or origin of the vehicle or parts was unknown, it was given a 'Q' suffix.I do not know why Q came about, but at a guess would say it was to cut down on "cut and shuts".
Vanin said:
"Substantial" is a wonderful word that lawyers can manipulate.
Having a "power to weight ratio of more than 15% in excess of its original design, unless such a modification took place before 1988".
So in reality a standard DB5/6 four litre puts out around 240 bhp rather than the 285 suggested in the brochures.
!5% of 240 is 36 so a 4.2 litre conversion plus fuel injection/cam/webers may take this well over 300 hp or over 25% increase
Originality seems to be king again! When they really tighten up it will be ZF boxes only, standard brakes, crossply tyres and positive earth!
Seems so re originality.Having a "power to weight ratio of more than 15% in excess of its original design, unless such a modification took place before 1988".
So in reality a standard DB5/6 four litre puts out around 240 bhp rather than the 285 suggested in the brochures.
!5% of 240 is 36 so a 4.2 litre conversion plus fuel injection/cam/webers may take this well over 300 hp or over 25% increase
Originality seems to be king again! When they really tighten up it will be ZF boxes only, standard brakes, crossply tyres and positive earth!
Take your point re lawyers, but as well as "substantial" there are other rules. For example, please check out "reconstructed classic vehicles" on DVLA website. This means that every Aston Martin with a retrofitted twin plug head (as in many GT/Racing/Zagato conversions) are facing a Q as just one example from one subset of a low volume manufacturer's back catalogue. Many makes will be facing the similar issues.
RL17 said:
Does announcement re exemption for MOTs for cars over 40 years old next year now take most of these out of the new Q rules?
The announcement carries on the Q rules that have been in place since 1983. There may be slight adjustments, but it is proposed the system is still utilised.Jon39 said:
Thank you for your explanations, Adrian.
Both of my 1960s cars are all original, so hopefully the DVLA won't be feeling my collar.
This topic seems to be about some DB cars built with shorter, non standard chassis mainly for competition use, although in those days, driving on the road to circuits was fairly common, so would have been road registered.
It seems to me, rather extreme for there to be problems arising now, because I think the work in this case, was done by the original manufacturer of the standard car.
There are other short chassis cars. The successful short chassis Audi Quattro rally cars come to mind. They are noticeably shorter than the original car.
The trouble is it is being done still. Cars like Audi Quattro UR SWB were made by the factory. If not a Q. Cars like Gartrac Escorts were Q when made. There was a good reason for all of this and it was to stop cut and shuts and unsafe mods. Can't blame DVLA for trying to protect the consumer.Both of my 1960s cars are all original, so hopefully the DVLA won't be feeling my collar.
This topic seems to be about some DB cars built with shorter, non standard chassis mainly for competition use, although in those days, driving on the road to circuits was fairly common, so would have been road registered.
It seems to me, rather extreme for there to be problems arising now, because I think the work in this case, was done by the original manufacturer of the standard car.
There are other short chassis cars. The successful short chassis Audi Quattro rally cars come to mind. They are noticeably shorter than the original car.
Seven-6-12 said:
SDB660 said:
Regarding modified classics in general, DVLA has published their draft guidance re cars that have substantial changes. Major implications, especially for vehicles modified but not notified to DVLA previously. Literally, every Zagato, DB4 GT, and Volante/Convertible recreation since 1983 created from a standard DB4/5/6 saloon, that has not gone through DVLA process is going to have issues as they have either had 5 inches taken from chassis or have a modified chassis.
Have created an article here that has links to DVLA source and covers, I believe, what is happening. Please share as it looks like within 20 months DVLA will have a good handle on their car database and all classic car owners that have mods need to be aware.
What is most worrying is that the proposal, to be implemented next year, is for car owners to declare yearly that their car has not had "substantial change", I believe within 8 point rule, since 1988. If you lie, then the MOT station may be required to report, I believe, cars not as described.
Loads of Aston Martin cars may be affected by this scenario.
Umm there are quite a few post 1988 V8 engined Aston Martins that have had there engine capacity and power output significantly increased but retain original engine number and road registration as was applied when built as 5340cc cars, are you saying that this means all 6.3 and 7.0 litre conversions should be on a Q plate now or from now on ?Have created an article here that has links to DVLA source and covers, I believe, what is happening. Please share as it looks like within 20 months DVLA will have a good handle on their car database and all classic car owners that have mods need to be aware.
What is most worrying is that the proposal, to be implemented next year, is for car owners to declare yearly that their car has not had "substantial change", I believe within 8 point rule, since 1988. If you lie, then the MOT station may be required to report, I believe, cars not as described.
Loads of Aston Martin cars may be affected by this scenario.
Seven-6-12 said:
SDB660 said:
Vanin said:
"Substantial" is a wonderful word that lawyers can manipulate.
Having a "power to weight ratio of more than 15% in excess of its original design, unless such a modification took place before 1988".
So in reality a standard DB5/6 four litre puts out around 240 bhp rather than the 285 suggested in the brochures.
!5% of 240 is 36 so a 4.2 litre conversion plus fuel injection/cam/webers may take this well over 300 hp or over 25% increase
Originality seems to be king again! When they really tighten up it will be ZF boxes only, standard brakes, crossply tyres and positive earth!
Seems so re originality.Having a "power to weight ratio of more than 15% in excess of its original design, unless such a modification took place before 1988".
So in reality a standard DB5/6 four litre puts out around 240 bhp rather than the 285 suggested in the brochures.
!5% of 240 is 36 so a 4.2 litre conversion plus fuel injection/cam/webers may take this well over 300 hp or over 25% increase
Originality seems to be king again! When they really tighten up it will be ZF boxes only, standard brakes, crossply tyres and positive earth!
Take your point re lawyers, but as well as "substantial" there are other rules. For example, please check out "reconstructed classic vehicles" on DVLA website. This means that every Aston Martin with a retrofitted twin plug head (as in many GT/Racing/Zagato conversions) are facing a Q as just one example from one subset of a low volume manufacturer's back catalogue. Many makes will be facing the similar issues.
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