Has anyone ever grown to like an auto?

[RobM77]

Has anyone here been an auto box cynic and has since been converted?

With each generation, BMW are decreasing the number of their models available with manual boxes, buyers of new cars are going for manuals less and less, and my choice is starting to feel limited. The trouble is, I've recently spent a day with an auto (2017 F30 320d, ZF-8 speed auto) and whilst it was ok for A to B transport and I'd recommend one to others, I just didn't like it. Has anyone experienced similar, got an auto anyway (for example if they wanted a 330d or 335d), and then grown to like it?

As some background, I've owned 2 x E36, 1 x E46, 1 x E86 and 2 x E90 BMWs, all with manual gearboxes. I live in the countryside, work on the edge of a small market town and hardly ever drive in stop and start traffic. Most of my 76 mile a day commute looks like Cadwell Park; all NSL or 50mph with constant tight corners and rises and falls of gradient. I do 25k miles a year, mostly on that commute, but also a fair amount of towing a large and heavy trailer. Current car is a 320d with Birds suspension and a manual 'box. Obviously my choices are cars such as the Giulia (auto only), XE (auto in all but one model) and BMW 330d (auto only), or of course another manual 320d and straight to Birds. Having recently become a Dad and changed to a much heavier racing car to tow I've also toyed with going bigger for a 5 series, E Class etc, and obviously then auto is the predominant 'box on the market....

Any thoughts?

[RobM77]

Thanks guys. Given the twisty A, B and C roads I commute down, I'm thinking that sticking with a manual might be the more sensible choice. I only very rarely drive in towns and/or traffic. The extra power of a 30d engine would be nice towing, but I'm not sure it's worth switching to an auto for.

[RobM77]

Touring442 said:

That and the expense of renewing a clutch and DMF, often at lowish mileages puts me off.

I've never had to change a clutch in any of my cars; I'm not sure that's something to factor in to cost of ownership. Considering the abuse my current clutch gets with the clutch delay valve, towing a trailer and the ED's ludicrously long final drive, that says a lot about clutch longevity.

[RobM77]

Thanks. I can see the rationality for an auto and thanks to this thread I'm getting a clearer picture. The other thing that's becoming clearer is that the case for an auto doesn't really apply to me. I'm not interested in performance for a road car, just the process and enjoyment of driving; and I drive mainly on twisty roads and almost never in town.

[RobM77]

Thanks for your thoughts. To be fair, my day of trying out an auto 320d may have been jaded by the fact it had the standard suspension, and I've got used to a full Birds kit. I don't mean this to be rude, but the differences down a bumpy B road were so horrifying that it dominated the drive for me. It's possible there may have been something wrong with the car's dampers actually; it really was truly awful. I think it'd be a good idea to try an MSport car with the auto, plus of course you then get the paddle shift.

[RobM77]

JakeT said:

Strangely Rob, my driving style is similar to yours I cover a similar mileage (but I don't tow), and what do I have? A manual 330i with Birds suspension. I think I even do some driving near where you do too.

I've driven a few autos and get on with them, but it's very rare that I long for an auto. I find when I drive them, they're very accomplished, but I don't think I'd want to own one. I even like the 'old' autos that are unashamed of what they are. The fluid coupling makes for a nice experience, but not for me.

It seems you know what you like, if you want a 5 series per se, you can get the 530d with a manual up to about 2012, so there is an option for you there if you like. But I find doing so many miles, if I don't have a car I want and enjoy driving I loathe it, and it effects me outside of the car.

Thanks. Yes, I live in West Berks and commute down into Hampshire. It sounds like we have very similar tastes and driving routes. The 530d with a manual box (or 330d?) appeals to me greatly, but I do just under 25k miles a year, so really to get a car I can live with for 3 or 4 years and not spend a fortune on it I'd be looking for something younger when I change. I went off BMW petrol cars when DBW throttles came in, but I haven't tried one for a few years - maybe I should? Back then I walked to work and only did 8k miles a year, although now that I do 25k miles a year the difference between my 60mpg and a 330i doing 35mpg is £1800 a year, which is hard to justify - that's more than the running costs on my race car.

[RobM77]

Touring442 said:

RobM77 said:

I've never had to change a clutch in any of my cars; I'm not sure that's something to factor in to cost of ownership. Considering the abuse my current clutch gets with the clutch delay valve, towing a trailer and the ED's ludicrously long final drive, that says a lot about clutch longevity.

Is that an N47?

Yep. N47D20. The ED has a much longer final drive than my previous SE E90, so pulling away at junctions with a 1600kg trailer needs quite a bit of clutch use! With the delay valve meaning you can't judge things well, it can't be good for it.

[RobM77]

JakeT said:

Strangely I also do West Berks into Hampshire every day too. How odd!

I can understand that though, my 330i will do a real 35/36 on the commute, which isn't cheap. I justify it that it's cheaper than if a turbo fails on a diesel one. It might be worth seeing if you can do a 48 hour test drive from one of the manufacturers to see how their car fits into your commute and lifestyle.

Sadly the manual 330d went away when the F30 was introduced. The ZF 8hp is very good though, even if a little soul less. I find the DBG lag isn't too bad on the modern petrol ones, but I've done a load of miles in BMW's with the poor throttles, so I learnt to drive around it.

Yes, fair point. I had a turbo go on my last one, which cost £1500. Thing is, I've now done 140k miles in them over 8 years (100k in my '07 320d - a few years of low mileage then up to my current 24k pa, and 40k in my '10 320d ED) and only had that happen once - the other services have all been under £200, mostly about £130. So in 8 years that turbo cost me £190 pa, a tenth of the difference in fuel.

I'll definitely try a 330i though, thanks I must prefer petrol engines, but I've always found I just can't cope with the lag.

[RobM77]

I think this is at the root of my question whether people adjust, because there’s clearly a learned technique to working with the box to achieve what you want. I had exactly the above described experience in the one I borrowed, but I’m assuming there’s a way to tell the box in advance you want to shuffle down a couple of gears? I’m guessing with the ZF8 and paddles you could be cruising in 7th in full auto mode, spot an overtake and then give the ‘down’ paddle a couple of pulls to get the car in 5th ready to overtake? Similar when you spot a nice corner that you want higher revs for to control the car?

[RobM77]

E-bmw said:

I absolutely get that in a 7er, but I have had 5 various BM manuals & one auto which I converted to manual I hated it that much, admittedly that was an e39 523 so was quite a while ago.

I'm no fan of autos, but they have come a long way in the last few decades.

About fifteen years ago my E46 330ci (the worst car I've ever owned), was in the garage having a long list of problems sorted (yet again) and I was given an X3 3.0i as a courtesy car. The auto box was utterly hilarious - so laggy and ponderous it was just ridiculous. Fast forward to the present day with the ZF8 and I've started this thread as I'm wondering whether or not to own an auto. Things really have changed.

[RobM77]

RichardJS said:

Poppiecock said:

A modern auto senses how quickly you hit the throttle and behaves accordingly. It also won't drop straight back down if you lift off - it will hang onto the lower gear until it gets another input or 'times out' on its current behaviour.

You've spouted some complete nonsense about auto boxes - so inaccurate it does make me wonder if you have actually driven a modern auto or if this is some kind of story to boost some strange petrol head credentials.

Even the best automatic in the world doesn't know what you're about to do. Perhaps when a direct link between the driver's brain and the car has been developed this will be possible (scary thought!) - but not yet. I have a ZF8 - so one of the best around - and there's always an inevitable delay between pressing the accelerator and the right gear being selected - short but noticeable. This is particularly troublesome when using the throttle to balance the car in a corner. Perhaps you don't do this?

Could someone with a recent auto BMW fitted with paddles confirm whether you can simply tap a paddle to get the car out of auto mode and shift up or down a gear at the same time? For example, if I had an auto I'd want to be able to cruise along a straight or busy stretch of road in auto mode (e.g. 50mph in 7th), then if I arrived at a decent set of bends I'd want to tap the "-" paddle to instantly change down a gear or two (e.g. 50mph in 3rd), plus to also switch to manual mode in that single action so the car will hold that gear through the bends. The auto 3 series I borrowed a few weeks ago didn't have paddles, so you had to kick the lever over and use that, which was quite awkward, and the gear indicator was in tiny lettering on the dash - far from ideal for B road fun. I'd miss the interaction of a manual box (I rev match every gearchange and rather like changing gear), but at the very least I'd want an auto box to be instantly at my beck and call if I wanted it to be.

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

I'm not sure I'd want to be 'using the throttle to balance the car' in a big saloon on the public highway. I'll save that for track days.

The throttle will always have an effect on the balance of a car when cornering, regardless of speed. For those of us that feel that and are sympathetic to it, we want to do something pleasing (and safe) with that control. Higher revs gives you more control.

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

RobM77 said:

The throttle will always have an effect on the balance of a car when cornering, regardless of speed. For those of us that feel that and are sympathetic to it, we want to do something pleasing (and safe) with that control. Higher revs gives you more control.

I forgot I’m in the presence of driving gods.

Gosh, there's no need to be anywhere near a driving god to feel the balance of the car, it's just a basic of driving. Some people are just into that sort of thing and others aren't - I've no problem with either point of view, but they're both valid!

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 23 July 14:41

[RobM77]

Pica-Pica said:

toon10 said:

RobM77 said:

Could someone with a recent auto BMW fitted with paddles confirm whether you can simply tap a paddle to get the car out of auto mode and shift up or down a gear at the same time? For example, if I had an auto I'd want to be able to cruise along a straight or busy stretch of road in auto mode (e.g. 50mph in 7th), then if I arrived at a decent set of bends I'd want to tap the "-" paddle to instantly change down a gear or two (e.g. 50mph in 3rd), plus to also switch to manual mode in that single action so the car will hold that gear through the bends. The auto 3 series I borrowed a few weeks ago didn't have paddles, so you had to kick the lever over and use that, which was quite awkward, and the gear indicator was in tiny lettering on the dash - far from ideal for B road fun. I'd miss the interaction of a manual box (I rev match every gearchange and rather like changing gear), but at the very least I'd want an auto box to be instantly at my beck and call if I wanted it to be.

I have the zf box and it does indeed change with a tap of the paddle in auto mode. You can use it to get an instant gear change without switching to manual mode for an overtake for example but it takes control back after a few seconds if you don't use the paddles again.

Indeed. If you are in D, using the paddles puts you in temporary manual mode, and it will stay there until the engine load is reduced. That can be used for overtaking, going down steep hills or in stop start traffic, where engine braking is useful. If you are in Sport mode, then using the paddles will make it manual only (but with the advantage you cannot rev the nuts off, and also if you brake suddenly to a stop it will go into 1st to pull away).

Hmm; I'm getting the feeling this wouldn't be of use for going into a corner; as I suspect the box would shuffle up and mess the balance of the car up during the corner. I'm guessing the preferred method is just to knock the car into manual mode using the gearstick.

[RobM77]

E-bmw said:

I don't mean to play devils advocate but virtually everyone on here extoling the virtues of their auto is justifying them to one extent or another with using them in manual, so what you are saying is that what you really want is a 7/8 speed manual without a clutch pedal.

Whereas I am happy with my 6 speed manual & the added control/sensitivity of being able to control it on the clutch.

I was assuming there was an unspoken, but nevertheless relevant, love of autos in traffic, or when driving sleeping babies etc

There's the weight saving of a manual of course. Does anyone know what that is for the current ZF8 auto vs the 6 speed manual?

[RobM77]

Chamon_Lee said:

surely sales figures speak for themselves

They do for the general population, but I wanted to gauge how autos were viewed by people with a greater than average interest in cars and driving.

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

RobM77 said:

Gosh, there's no need to be anywhere near a driving god to feel the balance of the car, it's just a basic of driving. Some people are just into that sort of thing and others aren't - I've no problem with either point of view, but they're both valid!

Modern cars are so over-tyred and have ePAS with almost no feedback at all.

I get 'balancing on the throttle' in something older with skinny tyres and no PAS or hydraulic PAS, but in a modern car, you'd be hard pushed to know which end is driven most of the time.

I read a new 1-series review this week and they said you really can't tell it has switched to FWD.

I guess that's a matter of opinion. I regularly drive both my 2010 BMW 3 series road car and my 1977 MGB V8 racing car, both FE/RWD but from different eras, as you mention, and for me there's no difference between their ability to be balanced through a corner. Yes, in terms of feedback and sensations the classic car is streets ahead, and yes, my deliberately under-tyred 3 series with modified suspension is ahead of a standard BMW for interaction, but the physics of what's happening in a corner is the same, as it is for all cars.

[RobM77]

Just a quick thank you for putting so much into this thread It's certainly got me thinking about my next car.

[RobM77]

Jasey_ said:

RobM77 said:

Just a quick thank you for putting so much into this thread It's certainly got me thinking about my next car.

I think the new kid will have more of an impact than the choice of transmission in your next car.

Prams are big .

We're currently fine on days out, but holidays are challenging! We tend to go self catering and take sports stuff with us (bikes, boards etc), and my 3 series is quite literally packed to the roof. It's the same story when I go racing. He's 10 months and I'm told it gets easier, but I'm not so sure because surely he'll need more clothes and probably his own bike etc. My hard line is never FWD; I'm not so fussed about an auto, although my wife looked at me in horror when I suggested it

The trouble is that my commute is most of my miles (18k of my 25k per year), and for that I'm either on my own, or with windsurfing stuff on the roof, so the 3 series is fine. The commute's really twisty and has some great driving roads, but I do spend a lot of time in the car and I wonder if a 5 would be more relaxing. The other thing is that the newer F30 3 series I had for the day was very noisy at speed compared to my E90. Not sure if that was just the tyres (17s vs 16s), or if that's just how they are now? I think it would wind me up after a few weeks.

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

The F30 was a cheaply built heap of junk, closely related to the F20 1-series.

It’s night and day between an F30 and F10 5 series. I tested them back to back and went F10. Still miss that car, but I can’t justify the BIK on a new 5.

That’s interesting, cause I think I read that the F10 is based on the 7 series...