Steering wheel wobble on braking - E61 - Possible Causes?
Discussion
As the titles says, I have brake judder which can be felt through the steering wheel on braking; seems to be at low to mid speeds and less so at higher speeds.
I had the discs and pads changed all round less than 1500 miles ago - could they really be shagged already? My indy seems to think so, although I'm surprised that they could be given they weren't super budget items. They are Bosch discs all round with ATE pads up front and brembo at the back. Perhaps the mismatched brands don't work well together? Or could it be suspension related?
I'd like to explore other possibilities before replacing them all again. Any suggestions are very welcome!
I had the discs and pads changed all round less than 1500 miles ago - could they really be shagged already? My indy seems to think so, although I'm surprised that they could be given they weren't super budget items. They are Bosch discs all round with ATE pads up front and brembo at the back. Perhaps the mismatched brands don't work well together? Or could it be suspension related?
I'd like to explore other possibilities before replacing them all again. Any suggestions are very welcome!
Evolved said:
Could be paid deposits on the disks. How aggressive are the pads you put in? I’m not well up on the ones you listed.
Sometimes using a more aggressive pad will clean the disks and mean less deposits if you like to drive fast!
They are just regular pads - ATE are meant to be OEM BMW spec. I don't drive particularly fast as the car is used mainly in the city and has only been on 2 long runs since I had the discs/pads changed.Sometimes using a more aggressive pad will clean the disks and mean less deposits if you like to drive fast!
Yup, I have read a few places that debunk the warping myth. Funny though, as 2 different garages I chatted to today both said "discs are warped mate, you'll need to replace the entire set up"
There is some knocking around the front suspension somewhere which is being looked at whilst it's in the garage this week having an oil service. Could be related? Will also try some hard braking, although I've just done a 300 mile round trip mostly on dual carriageway and I would have thought that may have cleared any deposits. It does appear to get worse the warmer the car gets if that makes any difference.
I'm going to ask them to look at the calipers as well, that sounds like it could be a possibility.
There is some knocking around the front suspension somewhere which is being looked at whilst it's in the garage this week having an oil service. Could be related? Will also try some hard braking, although I've just done a 300 mile round trip mostly on dual carriageway and I would have thought that may have cleared any deposits. It does appear to get worse the warmer the car gets if that makes any difference.
I'm going to ask them to look at the calipers as well, that sounds like it could be a possibility.
Edited by RanchoGrande on Monday 29th July 23:29
naturalaspiration said:
I would try putting Bosch pads and give it a couple of thousand miles in the hope they should wear off the pad deposits. I had the same issue with Brembo/Pagid disc/pad combo years ago - discs replaced by German Swedish Parts only for the wobble to return. Switched to (I think) Lockheed pads and it did take a good few thousand miles to get rid of the wobble.
How/why do brake pad deposits happen? and can you see the deposits visually if you look at the discs?naturalaspiration said:
The disc runout can only be measured with a micrometer. Pad transfer is normal but excessive and uneven isn't. Why it happens? I would think it is expected that the softer pad material, under high pressure and temperature, would embed itself into the microscopic pores in the hard cast iron disc surface, as it is grinding it slowly away. Why some combinations of pads and discs are more prone to uneven deposits? I haven't a clue tbh.
Picking up the car tomorrow - my indy acknowledged the wobble, but did not check the discs as he couldn't find the tool to do it 
Said he doesn't know what's causing it, as visually it all looks good. Also have a knock on the suspension; they couldn't figure that one out either. Apparently there are no signs of any play in the various joints and the top mounts are fine. Thinks they will have to strip down the suspension to figure out which bits need replacing - possibly the shock absorber?
Oh, and my A/C condenser is leaking, the gearbox sump is leaking oil plus I have an oil leak under the engine. FFS!
naturalaspiration said:
Any MOT place can check joints for play without dismantling the suspension. As to the leaks if not excessive and not an MOT failure just live with it... the only thing than can cause issues is if the output shaft seal is leaking and the oil reaches the driveshaft bearing rubber mount and the flex disc - resulting in their rapid deterioration.
I'm planning to live with the oil leak but will be getting the leaky gearbox sorted as it just needs a new sump. I lived with oil leaks on my e46 for a long time so I'm not overly concerned. It's the brakes and suspension which is my focus and they are the bits they can't figure out...
gizlaroc said:
Do 10 hard brakes from 70mph down to 10mph.
That should clear any pad deposits.
But I reckon it is suspension or simply wheel balance.
Also, take it to someone who knows how to check properly, you don't need top strip it down.
When are you feeling/hearing a clunk from the suspension?
Will try the braking suggestion before I take it to the garage again later on this week. As for the knocking, its coming from the passenger side, happens when I'm going over bumps and turning at the same time. Garage thinks it could be the shock absorber or the top mount, but needs to strip it down to make sure. As for the wheels, apparently both my front wheels are buckled - this is consistent with the health check that BMW did the other week when it was in for a recall. Could this be making the brakes judder?That should clear any pad deposits.
But I reckon it is suspension or simply wheel balance.
Also, take it to someone who knows how to check properly, you don't need top strip it down.
When are you feeling/hearing a clunk from the suspension?
d_a_n1979 said:
Buckled wheels will act like poorly balanced wheels, they’ll vibrate the steering wheel at speed.
The knocking sounds like top mounts, but it could be a worn D bush in the damper, which means a whole replacement.
As I stated at the start of this thread, the hard but safe braking is an ideal way to clean off built up pad deposits on discs, just make sure that you drive for a few miles afterwards to let the discs cool off and do NOT have your foot on the brake pedal when you come to a stop, drop into N and handbrake on lightly.
Foot on the brakes when stationary is how most deposits are created and it’s a bad habit worth getting out of ASAP
Thanks. Will give this a whirl, also planning to replace both front wheels to see if that helps cure it.The knocking sounds like top mounts, but it could be a worn D bush in the damper, which means a whole replacement.
As I stated at the start of this thread, the hard but safe braking is an ideal way to clean off built up pad deposits on discs, just make sure that you drive for a few miles afterwards to let the discs cool off and do NOT have your foot on the brake pedal when you come to a stop, drop into N and handbrake on lightly.
Foot on the brakes when stationary is how most deposits are created and it’s a bad habit worth getting out of ASAP
Front wheels replaced; brake judder still there. Have also been out and done a load of hard stops to try and cure it (more difficult than it sounds to do this living in London)
Think I'm going to have to replace the pads and discs again, which I feel really angry about given the cost to do it initially and that I've only covered 2000 miles since. Ay chance of a warranty claim with the disc & pad manufacturer?
Think I'm going to have to replace the pads and discs again, which I feel really angry about given the cost to do it initially and that I've only covered 2000 miles since. Ay chance of a warranty claim with the disc & pad manufacturer?
hman said:
I had the same on an e60 - it was deposits on hub which can’t be seen when the disc is fitted. Removed the discs and cleaned the hubs - checked
Inside the top hat of the disc, re-fitted and all was well.
Also that knocking noise may be loose pads knocking when travelling inside the calipers
The garage that fitted the discs and pads are adamant they cleaned the hubs. As for the knocking, this was present before the pads/discs were changed so I'm fairly sure it's suspension related (either top mounts or struts or both) either way, it's going to cost more £££. Plus, I think I need a new local garage as I've lost faith in the indy I've been going to for 7 years as they just love replacing stuff rather than actually investigating which part may be at fault.Inside the top hat of the disc, re-fitted and all was well.
Also that knocking noise may be loose pads knocking when travelling inside the calipers
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