40% power gain on Ninja 250? Yeah?
Discussion
Power is not the next item on my Ninja 250 project bike - braided brake hoses and suspension are. I figured that I'd get the handling as good as possible before messing with the engine - because I don't want a LOT more power anyway (otherwise I may as well have bought a faster bike).
However in my internet searches for ways to make the little Ninja *lighter* (as in the Chapman approach to speed - to go faster, add lightness), I came across this Sport Rider article:
http://www.sportrider.com/features/146_0904_2008_k...
which featured a Ninja 250 souped up to break the 4-stroke 250cc land speed record, by the looks of things. They claimed the Ninja 250 puts out 25.6 bhp and 13 lb ft torque in standard form on the dyno. This is slightly lower than the claimed 32 bhp, but the article is about the US-spec Ninja, which retains carburettors whereas my UK-spec bike has EFI. Still, I've got an indicated 104 mph out of the bike, whereas the article claims a maximum 98 mph, so given the usual over-reading of on-bike instruments, I doubt my bike is producing anywhere near 32 bhp.
Reading the article, with no capacity increase but an increase in compression ratio and some (presumably extensive) head work, they managed 35.92 bhp and 16.79 lb ft, with the power produced at 12,200 rpm. Since my bike already redlines above that (13,000 rpm)… what's the story with the stock engine, then?
The special engine built by the 'Sport Rider' guys in the USA claims 40% more power than stock, which is a HELL of a power increase on a nasp engine that already spins pretty damn high.
Does this sound at all realistic? There's no increase in rev limit, and nothing appears to have been done to the engine to make it sound like a grenade or 'race' engine that requires 100-mile rebuilds.
Of course, it could simply be that the Ninja 250R engine is under-tuned in order to pass the 33 bhp (or is it now power-to-weight?) regulations for A2 licence holders (regulations which are similar in many more countries than just the UK), and getting more power for full licence holders isn't a big deal. But I've not heard of any common bolt-on kits, and regardless of the article's claim that the bikes aren't widely raced (they are, in the USA, oddly enough), AFAIK the race series is a standard-bike type formula to keep costs down, a form of real 'budget racing'.
In the course of my project research, I've found that 'adding lightness' is pretty much the most expensive way you can improve a bike
which is pretty typical! My enquiries to the carbon-wheel chaps resulted in an apologetic 'no chance' - their thinnest road-legal wheel is built for a 180-section rear tyre (i.e. all you supersports and superbike chaps out there) and whilst my enquiry was based on seeing a GP 125 (Bradley Smith's bike) using their wheels, the race wheels may theoretically fit but would not be road legal.
And carbon wheels, whilst being ultra-cool, are expensive. Not that I'm overly bothered, since I like having something different and I knew as soon as I took delivery of the baby Ninja that it'd end up becoming one of my mad projects
Part of the project is to end up with a road-legal, emissions-compliant, low-top-speed but high-acceleration, super-handling corner monster. Basically like an Aprilia RS250 but four stroke, reliable, and possible to ride and use regularly without being stolen. Modifications hence must be subtle in looks. IIRC the Aprllia RS250 had around 60 bhp but I don't need that much - I don't want a top speed anywhere over 115-120 mph, as per the original 'Lotus Elise of motorbikes' concept.
The sticky tyres have given monstrous grip, but have shown up the inadequacies in the suspension straight away. I'm hoping the flexiness and nervousness is down to suspension rather than requiring new swingarms or other major mods, but always was expecting to replace the rear shock with something high-quality. A good rear shock will also reduce weight, which is a good thing.
Light tuning of the engine itself was always on the cards, since in the quest to lose weight I simply *have* to change the rear can, which weighs a ton on the standard bike. Changing the can *and* the full system would be best, since it'd allow me to switch the exhaust hanger and rear brake fluid reservoir to a separate plastic or carbon hanger, and remove both heavy alloy pillion peg brackets (they are *chunky* and removal will save a decent amount of weight).
I had an idea of cheaper engine work - just swap the twin for the 650 twin Kawasaki make (in the Versys, I think) - it's physically around the same size and IIRC conversions have already been done. But then I'm looking at not just more power than my maximum, but also much more torque. And the torque could cause problems with the swingarm, chain, etc. and especially the braking system - which only has a single disc at the front.
So potentially a re-bore, head work and some 'traditional' tuning on the existing engine was the original plan. I was happy with the idea of 32 bhp because I was expecting a pipe and filter to get me around 35, which would keep the top speed low but make the bike very nippy in the twisties…. but I wasn't counting on the 'published' 32 bhp being 25.6 bhp in reality!!!! Something more like 40 bhp would be the maximum, and would be the ultimate for a lightweight 250 built for cornering - any more than that and it'd be silly to continue when 600s are being made so lightweight these days.
The question is then - does anyone know whether the Ninja 250 engine is actually in mild tune, and whether getting 40% more power is a reasonable proposition with traditional tuning I can get any bike engine tuner to do (head work, cams, remap, exhaust, maybe a big-bore kit)? I looked at the numbers for modern 600 supersports - road bikes in Japanese-reliable trim appear to be making 100 bhp from 600cc these days, which is 166.67 bhp per litre. Scaled to a 250, that makes 41.67 bhp. Of course, modern 600 supersports are all 4 cylinder screamers, and the Ninja 250 is a twin. But Ducati make twins too… and they don't seem to be that short on power.
Anyway since the bike is great fun and I have no intention of *reducing* the fun level - just *increasing* it, without making it comfortable over 100 mph (it's not, certainly not at the moment), brakes and suspension are getting done first. Actually, I ought to do suspension first, because I'm finding that I don't really ever use the brake much - engine braking and sitting up into the airflow slows the bike enough for corners - I'm only using the brake in town and for emergencies! So suspension advice would be welcomed. I don't know enough to bolt on an Öhlins multi-adjustable shock and then set it up myself, I'd really need an expert to do this - is it feasible to work out the settings on a shock simply from bike weight, rider weight, engine power, riding style, etc. - or is it an iterative process with the rider needing to know how all the different functions of a shock (bump, rebound, etc.) work?
However in my internet searches for ways to make the little Ninja *lighter* (as in the Chapman approach to speed - to go faster, add lightness), I came across this Sport Rider article:
http://www.sportrider.com/features/146_0904_2008_k...
which featured a Ninja 250 souped up to break the 4-stroke 250cc land speed record, by the looks of things. They claimed the Ninja 250 puts out 25.6 bhp and 13 lb ft torque in standard form on the dyno. This is slightly lower than the claimed 32 bhp, but the article is about the US-spec Ninja, which retains carburettors whereas my UK-spec bike has EFI. Still, I've got an indicated 104 mph out of the bike, whereas the article claims a maximum 98 mph, so given the usual over-reading of on-bike instruments, I doubt my bike is producing anywhere near 32 bhp.
Reading the article, with no capacity increase but an increase in compression ratio and some (presumably extensive) head work, they managed 35.92 bhp and 16.79 lb ft, with the power produced at 12,200 rpm. Since my bike already redlines above that (13,000 rpm)… what's the story with the stock engine, then?
The special engine built by the 'Sport Rider' guys in the USA claims 40% more power than stock, which is a HELL of a power increase on a nasp engine that already spins pretty damn high.
Does this sound at all realistic? There's no increase in rev limit, and nothing appears to have been done to the engine to make it sound like a grenade or 'race' engine that requires 100-mile rebuilds.
Of course, it could simply be that the Ninja 250R engine is under-tuned in order to pass the 33 bhp (or is it now power-to-weight?) regulations for A2 licence holders (regulations which are similar in many more countries than just the UK), and getting more power for full licence holders isn't a big deal. But I've not heard of any common bolt-on kits, and regardless of the article's claim that the bikes aren't widely raced (they are, in the USA, oddly enough), AFAIK the race series is a standard-bike type formula to keep costs down, a form of real 'budget racing'.
In the course of my project research, I've found that 'adding lightness' is pretty much the most expensive way you can improve a bike
which is pretty typical! My enquiries to the carbon-wheel chaps resulted in an apologetic 'no chance' - their thinnest road-legal wheel is built for a 180-section rear tyre (i.e. all you supersports and superbike chaps out there) and whilst my enquiry was based on seeing a GP 125 (Bradley Smith's bike) using their wheels, the race wheels may theoretically fit but would not be road legal.And carbon wheels, whilst being ultra-cool, are expensive. Not that I'm overly bothered, since I like having something different and I knew as soon as I took delivery of the baby Ninja that it'd end up becoming one of my mad projects
Part of the project is to end up with a road-legal, emissions-compliant, low-top-speed but high-acceleration, super-handling corner monster. Basically like an Aprilia RS250 but four stroke, reliable, and possible to ride and use regularly without being stolen. Modifications hence must be subtle in looks. IIRC the Aprllia RS250 had around 60 bhp but I don't need that much - I don't want a top speed anywhere over 115-120 mph, as per the original 'Lotus Elise of motorbikes' concept.
The sticky tyres have given monstrous grip, but have shown up the inadequacies in the suspension straight away. I'm hoping the flexiness and nervousness is down to suspension rather than requiring new swingarms or other major mods, but always was expecting to replace the rear shock with something high-quality. A good rear shock will also reduce weight, which is a good thing.
Light tuning of the engine itself was always on the cards, since in the quest to lose weight I simply *have* to change the rear can, which weighs a ton on the standard bike. Changing the can *and* the full system would be best, since it'd allow me to switch the exhaust hanger and rear brake fluid reservoir to a separate plastic or carbon hanger, and remove both heavy alloy pillion peg brackets (they are *chunky* and removal will save a decent amount of weight).
I had an idea of cheaper engine work - just swap the twin for the 650 twin Kawasaki make (in the Versys, I think) - it's physically around the same size and IIRC conversions have already been done. But then I'm looking at not just more power than my maximum, but also much more torque. And the torque could cause problems with the swingarm, chain, etc. and especially the braking system - which only has a single disc at the front.
So potentially a re-bore, head work and some 'traditional' tuning on the existing engine was the original plan. I was happy with the idea of 32 bhp because I was expecting a pipe and filter to get me around 35, which would keep the top speed low but make the bike very nippy in the twisties…. but I wasn't counting on the 'published' 32 bhp being 25.6 bhp in reality!!!! Something more like 40 bhp would be the maximum, and would be the ultimate for a lightweight 250 built for cornering - any more than that and it'd be silly to continue when 600s are being made so lightweight these days.
The question is then - does anyone know whether the Ninja 250 engine is actually in mild tune, and whether getting 40% more power is a reasonable proposition with traditional tuning I can get any bike engine tuner to do (head work, cams, remap, exhaust, maybe a big-bore kit)? I looked at the numbers for modern 600 supersports - road bikes in Japanese-reliable trim appear to be making 100 bhp from 600cc these days, which is 166.67 bhp per litre. Scaled to a 250, that makes 41.67 bhp. Of course, modern 600 supersports are all 4 cylinder screamers, and the Ninja 250 is a twin. But Ducati make twins too… and they don't seem to be that short on power.
Anyway since the bike is great fun and I have no intention of *reducing* the fun level - just *increasing* it, without making it comfortable over 100 mph (it's not, certainly not at the moment), brakes and suspension are getting done first. Actually, I ought to do suspension first, because I'm finding that I don't really ever use the brake much - engine braking and sitting up into the airflow slows the bike enough for corners - I'm only using the brake in town and for emergencies! So suspension advice would be welcomed. I don't know enough to bolt on an Öhlins multi-adjustable shock and then set it up myself, I'd really need an expert to do this - is it feasible to work out the settings on a shock simply from bike weight, rider weight, engine power, riding style, etc. - or is it an iterative process with the rider needing to know how all the different functions of a shock (bump, rebound, etc.) work?
Tango13 said:
Throw the standard suspension in the box marked "bin" and then get the forks revalved and fit a matching rear shock as the sticky tyres are probably to much for the standard setup.
I think I still have a PB road test of the ZZR250 which IIRC has pretty much the same engine so I'll post the BHP/Torque figures when i get home.
Yup, you're right about the suspension. The question is, what to buy? There's a big range of prices…. And I think that the ZZR250 was an IL4, though may be wrong.I think I still have a PB road test of the ZZR250 which IIRC has pretty much the same engine so I'll post the BHP/Torque figures when i get home.
bass gt3 said:
Throw the whole bike in the bin and buy something more suitable. It really seems you are trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
Whilst you may not want more power, if you have it, there's no law saying you have to use it. I really don't get what you're trying to do??
I've already explained what I'm playing at… no need to follow the herd, is there? Anyway it's fun to do something different. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I shouldn't have a go. Your alternative effectively means buying a ZX6-R and either miraculously acquiring self-control from somewhere, or putting a rev-limiter on the engine halfway down the rev-range and only using half (or less than half) of the bike's performance. And getting the handling of a 600 when you want the handling of a lighter, slimmer bike. It's not the *only* solution, is it?Whilst you may not want more power, if you have it, there's no law saying you have to use it. I really don't get what you're trying to do??
Chaps - I *know* that I may be on a fool's errand here. I *know* the bike is built with budget components to begin with, and I'd be far better off buying the bike that already came with the top-end components… but what bike may that be?
I'm guilty as charged of the 911 analogy - wanted a 993RS but couldn't afford one (prices went mental) so I bolted a supercharger to my standard 993 Carrera. Then uprated brake pads, lighter 18" wheels, Dunlop SSR tyres, etc. And yes, I was faster round Brands GP than the 993RS boys, for a while. But yeah, if it'd been possible I'd have got the real thing.
The trouble is that the UK market doesn't have demand for a 'Lotus Elise' type bike - they're all 'Ferrari 430' bikes. All of 'em. If someone can point me in the direction of a 250cc four-stroke sports bike that is built with top-end components and is designed as a low-top-speed ultra-lightweight corner-monster then please do!!! I'll go out and buy one.
I'm trying to make a modern, 4-stroke, reliable bike that is similar in concept to the Aprilia RS250. I don't want to buy a real Aprilia RS250 because of a few reasons - reliability, insurability, likelihood of theft and the highly strung nature of its two-stroke engine being most of them. I wouldn't be able to ride an RS250 to the station every day and expect to find it there when I got back, would I? They are also not made any more, meaning a second-hand bike, MOTs, etc. etc. I've looked pretty hard, but I can't find the 'modern version of the Aprilia RS250' on the market. Where is it?
As far as I can tell, there are no bikes on the market that do what I want. So, being fond of modifications and building specials, I've decided to have a go. There are a few riders on here who know *exactly* why I'm doing this, too. Nobody has to agree that I'm doing anything that makes sense, I just would like advice on the issues I'm likely to face, rather than the advice 'you're wasting your time'. Even if the bike never ends up fulfilling what I wanted, I'm not wasting my time, because I'm having fun in the process. OK?
BN - apologies - I've used both 'standard' and 'stock' in that first post… and I castigate those using Americanisms too, so must avoid the hypocrisy… By the way, standard front brake is a wavey disc, and I'm not suffering from lack of braking performance at the moment. And the standard rear shock isn't adjustable for anything except ride height, which is already correct...
I'm guilty as charged of the 911 analogy - wanted a 993RS but couldn't afford one (prices went mental) so I bolted a supercharger to my standard 993 Carrera. Then uprated brake pads, lighter 18" wheels, Dunlop SSR tyres, etc. And yes, I was faster round Brands GP than the 993RS boys, for a while. But yeah, if it'd been possible I'd have got the real thing.
The trouble is that the UK market doesn't have demand for a 'Lotus Elise' type bike - they're all 'Ferrari 430' bikes. All of 'em. If someone can point me in the direction of a 250cc four-stroke sports bike that is built with top-end components and is designed as a low-top-speed ultra-lightweight corner-monster then please do!!! I'll go out and buy one.
I'm trying to make a modern, 4-stroke, reliable bike that is similar in concept to the Aprilia RS250. I don't want to buy a real Aprilia RS250 because of a few reasons - reliability, insurability, likelihood of theft and the highly strung nature of its two-stroke engine being most of them. I wouldn't be able to ride an RS250 to the station every day and expect to find it there when I got back, would I? They are also not made any more, meaning a second-hand bike, MOTs, etc. etc. I've looked pretty hard, but I can't find the 'modern version of the Aprilia RS250' on the market. Where is it?
As far as I can tell, there are no bikes on the market that do what I want. So, being fond of modifications and building specials, I've decided to have a go. There are a few riders on here who know *exactly* why I'm doing this, too. Nobody has to agree that I'm doing anything that makes sense, I just would like advice on the issues I'm likely to face, rather than the advice 'you're wasting your time'. Even if the bike never ends up fulfilling what I wanted, I'm not wasting my time, because I'm having fun in the process. OK?
BN - apologies - I've used both 'standard' and 'stock' in that first post… and I castigate those using Americanisms too, so must avoid the hypocrisy… By the way, standard front brake is a wavey disc, and I'm not suffering from lack of braking performance at the moment. And the standard rear shock isn't adjustable for anything except ride height, which is already correct...
I really didn't want this thread to get into an argument as to whether what the hell I'm trying to do with my bike is acceptable to the forum or not, FFS. If I want a bike nobody else does, that's a feature of everyone being an individual, after all. And modified, custom bikes are all over the place - not everyone wants to be, look, or act the same. Hasn't that *always* been part of the culture of motorcycling, anyway??
The initial question was regarding the engine. The base motor has been around a long time, it's old technology. However the article I linked at the start seemed to have got 40% more power out of it just by breathing work i.e. not swapping the motor, or boring it out for greater capacity, etc. I was asking if this was reasonable. Surely some of you chaps must know whether 26 bhp from a 250 twin is in 'high tune' or whether it's pretty low tune and I should be able to get much more from it… it safely revs to 13k already, so the internals are up to some high engine speeds.
After all, I've already got all the grip I need with the different tyres I've put on it, I'm not struggling with the brakes at the moment - they're just fine for road use (if I ever track it, that's when I'll find out about the brakes). Suspension is the other question, and yes, shocks from other Kawasakis will fit. A common mod in the USA is to swap for what they call the Ninja 500R rear shock, which is a direct fit… so presumably any 'aftermarket' shocks for the 500R (not sure what this bike is called in the UK - I think Kawasaki's name is the EX500) will also fit the Ninja 250. So I'm sure I'll find something there - the final issue will, of course, be as you mention whether the frame is stiff enough for all of this. I'll only find that out the hard way, though with the 250 racing series being popular, I'm not too worried about my modifications making the frame too flexible for the *road* - hell, I'm not a MotoGP rider…
As to just getting a bigger bike, I've been there. Heavier, more powerful, faster, 100+ mph everywhere when riding enthusiastically, etc. etc. I *know* you mean well with your comments, but I'm just trying to make a very lightweight performance bike that won't lose me my licence. That's all. I've tried the old grey-import 400s and they're too damn small (physical comfort-wise). The Aprilia RS250 would be perfect but for the reasons I list. Now there *used* to be demand for the type of bike I'm talking about - because Aprilia made one! With the 2-stroke no longer, that bike doesn't exist any more. And there's now a hole in the market.
Oh well, I'll shut up about it and stop the questions, and I'll post up changes as and when I do them… I really don't see how the bike could be so rigidly fixed to its standard output and performance - all vehicles seem to respond to some mild tuning, and I simply don't believe that the engine in my bike is maxed out right to the limits of its capability. The tyre swap showed a massive improvement in grip. The bike is already great fun to ride - I'm talking about a few upgrades here, not wholesale re-engineering like doubling the power, doubling the tyre size, swapping swingarms, etc. No different than a lot of you chaps do to your 600s or litre bikes, at the end of the day.
How much can it cost to take the cylinder head to a bike racing shop and ask them to improve it from standard, after all? As long as the increase in flow isn't outside the range of the EFI (at which point presumably a power commander / etc. could be used, no?) then surely it'll just make it better? These are budget built engines, so I'm assuming that like many cheaply made engines, the head casting will have flashing and other obstructions that are easily removed…
The initial question was regarding the engine. The base motor has been around a long time, it's old technology. However the article I linked at the start seemed to have got 40% more power out of it just by breathing work i.e. not swapping the motor, or boring it out for greater capacity, etc. I was asking if this was reasonable. Surely some of you chaps must know whether 26 bhp from a 250 twin is in 'high tune' or whether it's pretty low tune and I should be able to get much more from it… it safely revs to 13k already, so the internals are up to some high engine speeds.
After all, I've already got all the grip I need with the different tyres I've put on it, I'm not struggling with the brakes at the moment - they're just fine for road use (if I ever track it, that's when I'll find out about the brakes). Suspension is the other question, and yes, shocks from other Kawasakis will fit. A common mod in the USA is to swap for what they call the Ninja 500R rear shock, which is a direct fit… so presumably any 'aftermarket' shocks for the 500R (not sure what this bike is called in the UK - I think Kawasaki's name is the EX500) will also fit the Ninja 250. So I'm sure I'll find something there - the final issue will, of course, be as you mention whether the frame is stiff enough for all of this. I'll only find that out the hard way, though with the 250 racing series being popular, I'm not too worried about my modifications making the frame too flexible for the *road* - hell, I'm not a MotoGP rider…
As to just getting a bigger bike, I've been there. Heavier, more powerful, faster, 100+ mph everywhere when riding enthusiastically, etc. etc. I *know* you mean well with your comments, but I'm just trying to make a very lightweight performance bike that won't lose me my licence. That's all. I've tried the old grey-import 400s and they're too damn small (physical comfort-wise). The Aprilia RS250 would be perfect but for the reasons I list. Now there *used* to be demand for the type of bike I'm talking about - because Aprilia made one! With the 2-stroke no longer, that bike doesn't exist any more. And there's now a hole in the market.
Oh well, I'll shut up about it and stop the questions, and I'll post up changes as and when I do them… I really don't see how the bike could be so rigidly fixed to its standard output and performance - all vehicles seem to respond to some mild tuning, and I simply don't believe that the engine in my bike is maxed out right to the limits of its capability. The tyre swap showed a massive improvement in grip. The bike is already great fun to ride - I'm talking about a few upgrades here, not wholesale re-engineering like doubling the power, doubling the tyre size, swapping swingarms, etc. No different than a lot of you chaps do to your 600s or litre bikes, at the end of the day.
How much can it cost to take the cylinder head to a bike racing shop and ask them to improve it from standard, after all? As long as the increase in flow isn't outside the range of the EFI (at which point presumably a power commander / etc. could be used, no?) then surely it'll just make it better? These are budget built engines, so I'm assuming that like many cheaply made engines, the head casting will have flashing and other obstructions that are easily removed…
rhinochopig said:
Woah there - no one is arguing with you. Simply offering alternatives - this is a DISCUSSION forum, no?
A bunch of useful posts appeared just after I wrote that - crossposting, so to speak. Sorry - the discussion seemed to have slipped onto whether my project was a wise one (when anyone who has done a 'project' anything knows damn well that NO projects are 'wise' 
) when I was really asking about whether the engine power reported in that article suggested that the standard 2010 version of the motor was in a restricted or mild state of tune, and hence easy gains were possible….defblade said:
As someone's said, the only way you'll be able to tell what power your bike actually has, and if you've improved it later, is to get a base-line reading now (and use the same dyno for all further tests, too).
Sounds like you're taking the right course though - as with cars, suspension and braking fettling works much better in RealLife than outright power.
If you want to improve the power/weight ratio cheaply - eat less!!
Sadly, I'm already an unhealthily skinny bSounds like you're taking the right course though - as with cars, suspension and braking fettling works much better in RealLife than outright power.
If you want to improve the power/weight ratio cheaply - eat less!!
d - just over 5'11" and under 69 kg, if anything I could do with putting *on* some weight…3doorPete said:
GPX250R, ZZR250 and 250 Ninja are all the same engine - 8v parallel twin. ZXR250 had the IL4. Each iteration has ended up with a slower engine due to emission regs. My GPX250R with a 2 into 1 full system and dynojet kit made 38bhp at rear wheel on a mid 90's dyno (probably about 34bhp these days). It also redlined at 14K rpm (1000rpm higher than 250 Ninja). It was 20kg lighter than a ZZR250 after the exhaust, weighing about 135kg and was almost a match for RG250's. It could also virtually keep with NC24 VFR400's etc from a performance point of view.
That's encouraging - though my bike has EFI and hence may be restricted by throttle body sizes, there are plenty of full systems and rear cans available for the Ninja 250. I already have a K&N filter sitting here waiting for fitment too. Exhaust choice is still up for grabs, since I want to sort suspension before messing much with the engine (though a cheap rear can just for a nicer noise and to lose a good few kg will get done early on - the standard can weighs a ton).3doorPete said:
Having owned an Elise - they are not budget - just small and light without too much power and short on fripperies. All sports bikes have a similar concept to the Elise.
In my view the 250 Ninja is not an Elise of the bike world, more a 1.2 Ford Fiesta Zetec.
I know a bit about Elises In my view the 250 Ninja is not an Elise of the bike world, more a 1.2 Ford Fiesta Zetec.
They were not cheap, that's for sure, but most components (apart from the chassis) were. Metro engine, etc. What I was getting at was that the top speed was not high, in fact the original S1 is a safe car to drive quite hard on the road, since getting well over 90 mph (and into licence-losing / jail territory) is difficult due to 118 bhp and crap aero. All the performance was from light weight and handling. Acceleration was brisk but not mental, but it was *fun* to drive at these lower speeds because you could use the full range of the car's performance.I really can't agree that 'all sports bikes have a similar concept to the Elise' - unless you consider being able to comfortably exceed 100 mph on any short straight and having a top speed over 150 mph being part of the Elise DNA. To me, it's the light weight that does it - allows acceptable performance from an exceedingly average engine, strong braking and roadholding due to reduced weight to manage, etc. It's a lot harder to reduce that weight on bikes, as I'm finding out. Still, the Ninja 250 is appreciably lighter than any of the sports 600s and litre bikes, which is a good start.
3doorPete said:
Each to their own, but if you are intent on the Ninja 250 tuning route, I'd stick with sticky rubber, aftermarket rear shock, revalved forks, racing pads and a full exhaust system with power commander. They do sound quite nice on a race pipe!
And there you go - exactly what I'm doing (short of the racing pads, yet) 
I wonder whether the restrictions you mention due to emissions are all on the exhaust side of the engine… if the difference in power between my bike and the older versions of the same engine is down to cats, baffles and lambda sensors in the standard exhaust, then a full system and remap ought to make quite a difference, no? Or will head work still provide benefits over and above bolt-ons (knowing the law of diminishing returns quite well…).
bass gt3 said:
regarding the head work, give Chris Steedman at CJS Racing a call. He works mainly with Ducati's, but a head is a head. His work is exemplary, and he'll provide accurate before and after flow data. With this, you'll get a good idea as to the possible gains.
Now to maximise the flow, you may need to change the cam(s) Are aftermarket cams available? If not, you might be stuck. Or will cams from another model fit? Improving an engines breathing is about more than flow numbers. Think duration, overlap, swirl, tumble etc
Next up, is there a power commander available for that model? if not, you might be able modify another approximate version to fit.(Versys)?? For example, i have a PC5 for the 848 on my 996 race bike. Did it fit? no, did i make it fit? Yes. Did it work? Hell yes!!
Suspension. The front might not be a problem with so many insert kits being available. The rear might be a challenge. Even a shock from another base model is never going to be great. But if it has the necessary functions, it might be able to be rebuilt and improved by someone such as K Tec.
Wheels. I'll guarantee the BST carbon wheels for the Ape RS250 would fit. Might need some engineering in regards to disc offsets, wheel spacers etc, but it can be done. And it would be a huge improvement.
So yes, it can all be done, and you know where such projects lead in monetary terms.
Cheeers - that's useful info. Interesting about the BST wheels because the guys at HPS (importers here) say that the narrowest road legal CF wheel is 5.50" and for 180 width tyres, and the 125 race wheels aren't road-legal… didn't mention anything about wheels for the RS250, which also don't appear to be on their website. Are they (HPS) the only UK importers of the BST wheels?Now to maximise the flow, you may need to change the cam(s) Are aftermarket cams available? If not, you might be stuck. Or will cams from another model fit? Improving an engines breathing is about more than flow numbers. Think duration, overlap, swirl, tumble etc
Next up, is there a power commander available for that model? if not, you might be able modify another approximate version to fit.(Versys)?? For example, i have a PC5 for the 848 on my 996 race bike. Did it fit? no, did i make it fit? Yes. Did it work? Hell yes!!
Suspension. The front might not be a problem with so many insert kits being available. The rear might be a challenge. Even a shock from another base model is never going to be great. But if it has the necessary functions, it might be able to be rebuilt and improved by someone such as K Tec.
Wheels. I'll guarantee the BST carbon wheels for the Ape RS250 would fit. Might need some engineering in regards to disc offsets, wheel spacers etc, but it can be done. And it would be a huge improvement.
So yes, it can all be done, and you know where such projects lead in monetary terms.
Regarding the head work and whether cams are needed - the article linked where they apparently got 36 bhp from the standard 25.6 (I'm hoping that they aren't scamming by claiming the first figure at the wheel and the second figure at the crank) involved head work, custom pistons to increase the CR, but no custom cams, only different cam timing. Engine power isn't the primary goal for me, as it was for the guys in the article, so I'm not interested in going as far as that unless it's relatively cheap - after all, if I end up with loads of power then the bike will be doing over 100 on the roads again, which is why I got rid of the 600 in the first place. Light weight and hard cornering is what I'm aiming for.
B3njamin said:
Without sounding harsh I would try a 600 sportsbike for a day if I was you and see how you get on with it.
Doesn't sound harsh at all chap. I presume you didn't read previous threads, where I pointed out that my previous bike was a CBR600 and whilst I loved flinging it around, it was the time I was riding 75% enthusiastically (as opposed to balls-out) and swooping round a long corner, and caught 110 on the speedo out of the corner of my eye (was obviously looking up the road, not at the clocks) - that I decided that all UK sportsbikes had gotten too fast. That CBR600 was a tatty, older bike - loads of miles on the clock but sweet engine - suspension tired but tyres in good shape - and all modern, up-to-date 600s would only be sharper, lighter and faster. I'd have the choice of riding everywhere at 20% (which would frustrate me), or be hitting 100+ on every short straight, and potentially losing my licence or going to jail.I've lost my licence once already, and jail would destroy my life (I run my own business, and that business, along with all my contacts and potential clients, would be immediately lost with a criminal record).
I don't ride bikes just for A to B transport, nor do I ride bikes to pose. I can't imagine anything more frustrating than owning a *sports* machine that is designed and built to be ridden hard - and only being able to ride at 10% unless I had absolutely no regard for the laws of the land, speed limits, or safety. How you guys on the latest litre superbikes do it, I don't know.
It's a fault of mine, the lack of self control on a 'sports bike', but one that I'm aware of. So 'trying a 600 sportsbike for a day' - well I don't think I'd have a problem 'getting on with it' - but I'd have a problem keeping within speed limits.
Perhaps I'm coming across as a total novice due to my choice of bike…. I've actually had my full bike licence and been riding for more than 12 years. Never owned a litre sports for the reasons I state, but have owned and ridden 600s.
3doorPete said:
I would imagine the restrictions are all over the place to ensure leanness etc. Mainly pipe and fueling I would say though. Cam profile may be a bit different.
Full system and remap then. There's a 'black box' on the market for the 2008+ Ninja 250R that shifts the rev limiter to 14,000 - as per the earlier bikes - not sure whether the new engine is unsafe above that engine speed, or whether it was an arbitrary limit due to the 'mid-range optimisation' resulting in the torque curve dropping off well before 13k and making revving onwards a waste of time. But I'm going to find out. The whole 'strengthened mid-range' is utter BS anyway - the bike doesn't start to move (err… come alive? accelerate briskly? ) until 9000 rpm…3doorPete said:
To correct though - the Ninja 250R is 154kg dry. My 09 600RR is 155kg dry. That's a difference of a large dump before going for a ride. I guarantee you it will feel lighter both stationary and on the move due to the mass centralisation, so you are not really starting with something mega lightweight to turn into a razor.
Blimey, I'd love your new CBR then - my old CBR felt a good 30 kg heavier. Look, I'm not arguing with the superiority of the *fast* bikes - that's where all the development has been, that's where the market is, I'd be an idiot to claim that some nice-looking but 'budget beginner's bike' is going to compete with the sharpest razors on the market.But whilst a bunch of other riders here see where I'm coming from… I'm not sure you do. Can you imagine how much fun I'd have on your CBR600? I loved my old Honda. But it wasn't even as focused as yours - yours is almost as light as my 250 (I'm still stunned by that figure, BTW). So put the sticky tyres I like on your CBR (for all I know, you already have) and let me take it out for a ride on my twisty-ish favourite roads…
I'll either come back in a police car, or with a court summons. The problem is that whilst the baby Ninja can almost certainly (this is the whole point - if it can't, then I've failed in the project) corner the tight bends at the same speed as the superbikes, it hasn't the power to come rocketing out of them into illegal speeds, or to spin up the rear wheel on a surface change and highside me into a tree. All the excitement is in the corners, not the straights. I don't *want* to be doing 140 mph on a short straight, but if I'm riding enthusiastically on a bike capable of it, then you bet I will.
On top of that, if I was riding your Honda, where's the need to *try* in order to go fast? I could just bimble round the corners, like many fast-bike riders I see here in the south east, and then open it up on the straights. No car could keep up. On the 250, it's a SLOW bike. In order to keep up and get any thrills at all, I *need* to corner like my life depends on it. I'm learning every time I ride, and I really *like* that.
If I pushed my cornering ability on your CBR then all it'd take is one policeman to see me riding, and then it'd be curtains. I really don't want to have to hold back every time I ride - and I can't spend all my biking time on trackdays.
3doorPete said:
I don't agree at all with the Elise comparison though. It was designed with handling in mind. The 250R was designed with budget and ease of use in mind. Light weight and quality suspension will not change issues with wrong riding position, wrong weight distribution, wrong fork dimensions, wrong rake and trail, wrong C of G and no mass centralisation when it comes to out and out handling. Take a KTM 530 SM at 115kg and 60 bhp geared to 100mph and there's your lightweight Elise type tool. Simple old style engine, killer chassis, handling and quality suspension, crap aero and impracticle and runs rings around more powerful, heavier stuff in the twisties.
Fair enough, on that point you're bang on. Have you ridden a Ninja 250 though? It's no great shakes compared to your bike, but it doesn't deserve the slagging off you've given it there… having a twin rather than an IL4 makes the bike narrow, which is a bonus, and perhaps it's just me, but the 'wrong riding position' is perfect for me. I find it 'fits' perfectly, and allows me to put pressure on the bike anywhere I want without feeling that I'm not in control - i.e. putting weight on the front wheel to get it to turn in (on the old tyres - not needed yet on the new ones), weight on pegs, countersteering by push or pull, and I can flick my body either way to either reduce the required lean angle or increase it. I'm hardly Rossi and I won't claim to be a fast, skilled sportsbike rider, but it's *that* type of bike I want to ride.I really *did* consider a supermoto. But I knew I'd end up riding it primarily around town like my old scooter - i.e. riding everywhere like a complete cock. Wheelies, as has been mentioned, stoppies, the works. Don't want to provoke my reckless side, TBH.
bass gt3 said:
Or for sub ton speeds and killer handling, try the Buell 1203 aircooledbikes, in either fighter or racer form.XB9 or 12 S or R. Great handling, huge torque, runs out of puff at the ton, manic handling, lots of parts available, and hugely entertaining fun. Can be had cheeeeeep, bang on the button for your target if you can get over the 250 thing.
Tell me more. I've wanted a Buell for god damn ages - loved the eccentricity, the weird front brake, all the mass down low for cornering, etc. However how can a litre+ bike run out of puff at the ton? I'm not keen on naked bikes, had a Monster and the windblast was annoying. Also - I seriously can't believe they are 155 kg - surely the big Harley motor and the frame cum fuel tank (or is it oil) put it *well* above modern sportsbike weights?Look - bottom line is that I'm going to mess about with the 250 for a bit of fun. If I end up finding it doesn't work out, I've still got a commuter bike that has taught me a load of good stuff about how to corner hard and fast, and I won't have lost my licence. Then I can either say 'sod it' and buy a Priller RS250 and put it in the back garden, ride it one a weekend and hope it doesn't get nicked or disintegrate in the rain… or do what everyone else does and buy a lovely, lightweight, powerful 600 and try to deal with the frustration of not riding it hard…
Damn you Bass GT3 - I was seriously going to buy a Buell two years ago. Argh. Tell me they're over 200 kg and I'm not strong enough to throw them around, then I'll be OK.
If only I had a garage….
Honestly, I'd have so many toys. I seriously looked into getting a DRZ400SM but again, wrote the idea off on the basis that I'd just ride like a cock and not really learn how to ride a sportsbike properly.
You see, most of this comes from running into too many *very* fast bikes on the road when I'm in the Lotus, and finding them holding me up in the corners but then blasting away on the straights - it's frustrating… but as a motorcyclist myself, I'd be a complete hypocrite buying a fast bike and not knowing how to ride the thing properly. Bimbling round corners only to blast off to massively-illegal speeds doesn't strike me as either responsible or skilled. I was more impressed last weekend when following a chap on a big GS1200 BMW with all the aluminium panniers etc. - funnily enough this was on the A25 too - I was pushing as hard as my utterly inappropriate rubber allowed (I've still got winter tyres on the Exige, they are all at sea in the summer, I'm waiting for some back-ordered wheels to put my trackday tyres onto) and the chap on the big adventure bike made me work hard to keep up in the corners. Now *that* was impressive.
A similar situation near Goodwood with a bunch of superbikes and chaps in Power Ranger outfits resulted in (twisty roads) me putting two clear corners between myself and the bikes, until a straight appeared, the bikes screamed up, thumbs up and vanished!
I guess with the idiotic focus on speed by local authorities, there's always that concern that it's dangerous to end up *really* enjoying something that the government is trying to stamp out. So far, cornering really hard within the speed limits is not illegal, and luckily my main enjoyment of motoring (both on 2 wheels and 4) is round the corners, not what speed I get to in a straight line.
And being *good* at cornering on a motorcycle is an art - with any modern bike sufficient to please the average guy's ego (i.e. bigger than my Ninja!!! ), there's so much power that you don't *have* to learn how to corner well - just overtake everything with impunity due to the awesome power-to-weight ratio of modern bikes. So it seems that many bikers simply don't bother - I'm not counting the trackday loons who bloody well *have* to be able to take corners at speed - but I come across so many road riders with awesomely fast bikes that go really slowly round corners. And I don't want to be one of them 
At the end of the day, you're all right, the baby Ninja isn't a perfect starting point for a RS250 replacement - if I'm honest, that's what I'm trying to achieve - a full-sized sportsbike but usefully narrower, usefully lighter, not enough power to piss all over speed limits, but handling as good as the current crop of 600s. And with sticky tyres developed for 100+ bhp bikes, it'll have awesome grip and should be able to out-corner the big bikes.
The Ninja is the only new bike on the market in that bracket though, even though (as you rightly point out) it's not ideal. The change to the BT003 tyres transformed the bike though… I'm just wondering whether a decent rear shock would make a similar substantial difference to the handling of the bike… been offered a Nitron Sport shock (much lighter than standard), built to my specifications (weight, etc.) for £346.63 - seems better value than Öhlins etc. but I've only heard of Nitron in the Lotus space, not for bikes… anyone know if this sounds good?
Honestly, I'd have so many toys. I seriously looked into getting a DRZ400SM but again, wrote the idea off on the basis that I'd just ride like a cock and not really learn how to ride a sportsbike properly.
You see, most of this comes from running into too many *very* fast bikes on the road when I'm in the Lotus, and finding them holding me up in the corners but then blasting away on the straights - it's frustrating… but as a motorcyclist myself, I'd be a complete hypocrite buying a fast bike and not knowing how to ride the thing properly. Bimbling round corners only to blast off to massively-illegal speeds doesn't strike me as either responsible or skilled. I was more impressed last weekend when following a chap on a big GS1200 BMW with all the aluminium panniers etc. - funnily enough this was on the A25 too - I was pushing as hard as my utterly inappropriate rubber allowed (I've still got winter tyres on the Exige, they are all at sea in the summer, I'm waiting for some back-ordered wheels to put my trackday tyres onto) and the chap on the big adventure bike made me work hard to keep up in the corners. Now *that* was impressive.
A similar situation near Goodwood with a bunch of superbikes and chaps in Power Ranger outfits resulted in (twisty roads) me putting two clear corners between myself and the bikes, until a straight appeared, the bikes screamed up, thumbs up and vanished!
I guess with the idiotic focus on speed by local authorities, there's always that concern that it's dangerous to end up *really* enjoying something that the government is trying to stamp out. So far, cornering really hard within the speed limits is not illegal, and luckily my main enjoyment of motoring (both on 2 wheels and 4) is round the corners, not what speed I get to in a straight line.
And being *good* at cornering on a motorcycle is an art - with any modern bike sufficient to please the average guy's ego (i.e. bigger than my Ninja!!!
), there's so much power that you don't *have* to learn how to corner well - just overtake everything with impunity due to the awesome power-to-weight ratio of modern bikes. So it seems that many bikers simply don't bother - I'm not counting the trackday loons who bloody well *have* to be able to take corners at speed - but I come across so many road riders with awesomely fast bikes that go really slowly round corners. And I don't want to be one of them At the end of the day, you're all right, the baby Ninja isn't a perfect starting point for a RS250 replacement - if I'm honest, that's what I'm trying to achieve - a full-sized sportsbike but usefully narrower, usefully lighter, not enough power to piss all over speed limits, but handling as good as the current crop of 600s. And with sticky tyres developed for 100+ bhp bikes, it'll have awesome grip and should be able to out-corner the big bikes.
The Ninja is the only new bike on the market in that bracket though, even though (as you rightly point out) it's not ideal. The change to the BT003 tyres transformed the bike though… I'm just wondering whether a decent rear shock would make a similar substantial difference to the handling of the bike… been offered a Nitron Sport shock (much lighter than standard), built to my specifications (weight, etc.) for £346.63 - seems better value than Öhlins etc. but I've only heard of Nitron in the Lotus space, not for bikes… anyone know if this sounds good?
Alright then, broadening the options somewhat…
Keeping the 'narrow' and 'twin' theme… but trying to get the 'light' and 'good suspension' and 'sport' without modern IL4 supersport power…
What say I bung the filter and can on the Ninja just to make it sound nice, commute on that, and get an SV650S (don't like naked bikes - the SV650S has enough of a fairing doesn't it?), put decent suspension and sticky tyres on, and rag that around?
It'll be just a little bit too easy to break 100 mph but nothing like the supersport 600s. I was going to buy the SV650 as my first bike but got seduced by the red paint and the name 'Ducati' instead
- always loved the noise of the SV650.
Had a look at the old 748 Ducati but they're pretty powerful for a 750 v-twin and expensive, uncomfortable and desirable to thieves.
Are there decent tuning parts available for the SV650? It's a popular bike, but again if it's just beginners buying it then it'll be the same problem as the Ninja 250. I know it was pretty cheap new because I was considering one years ago, but years later there may be some decent bits to soup up the grip and handling…
And no, I don't want the SV1000. The 650 is surprisingly close to my power / torque maximums, and if I rag it around everywhere (and tune the suspension such that I *can* rag it around everywhere controllably) then I could lose my licence but jail is a lot less likely than if, say, I bought a CBR600RR on the basis that it weighed near-as-dammit the same as my Ninja 250.
How heavy is the SV650? Googled - bks - 196 kg. That's silly for a bike like that. The can looks like it weighs a ton and could be usefully lightened, but I'm after 150-160 kg FFS, like my bike and that damn CBR600RR….
Keeping the 'narrow' and 'twin' theme… but trying to get the 'light' and 'good suspension' and 'sport' without modern IL4 supersport power…
What say I bung the filter and can on the Ninja just to make it sound nice, commute on that, and get an SV650S (don't like naked bikes - the SV650S has enough of a fairing doesn't it?), put decent suspension and sticky tyres on, and rag that around?
It'll be just a little bit too easy to break 100 mph but nothing like the supersport 600s. I was going to buy the SV650 as my first bike but got seduced by the red paint and the name 'Ducati' instead
- always loved the noise of the SV650.Had a look at the old 748 Ducati but they're pretty powerful for a 750 v-twin and expensive, uncomfortable and desirable to thieves.
Are there decent tuning parts available for the SV650? It's a popular bike, but again if it's just beginners buying it then it'll be the same problem as the Ninja 250. I know it was pretty cheap new because I was considering one years ago, but years later there may be some decent bits to soup up the grip and handling…
And no, I don't want the SV1000. The 650 is surprisingly close to my power / torque maximums, and if I rag it around everywhere (and tune the suspension such that I *can* rag it around everywhere controllably) then I could lose my licence but jail is a lot less likely than if, say, I bought a CBR600RR on the basis that it weighed near-as-dammit the same as my Ninja 250.
How heavy is the SV650? Googled - b
ks - 196 kg. That's silly for a bike like that. The can looks like it weighs a ton and could be usefully lightened, but I'm after 150-160 kg FFS, like my bike and that damn CBR600RR….Just been googling and seen this:
If that 196 kg figure from Suzuki's website is a 'brand new with loads of emissions kit and full tank of fuel and fat bloke on board' weight…. and in reality the bike only weighs around 10 kg or so more than my Ninja 250, then fk the project, I'm selling the 250, buying a 5 year old SV650S at half the price and starting a project bike out of *that*.
I utterly *LOVE* TimmyWimmyWoo's Triumph and it ticks a lot of boxes, but it's the 100+ bhp 150 mph supersports thing again… and it's so beautiful, I'd feel like I need to polish it every day… for the 5 or 6 days I'd own it before the pikeys steal it.
As to a project SV650… the internet comments on the SV650S reckon it takes effort to get above 110 (it'll do 125, probably, with 70 bhp) and that's good news. Don't want more power, so keeping the engine standard output should help it being insurable.
There's also loads of suspension tuning parts available, all the way to Penske shocks and fork braces. It's a V-twin, my favourite bike engine type, and unless you put silly twin exhausts on it, it's narrow as hell - with that pic above, the high level exhaust has made it even narrower.
All it needs is fairing kits to make it look more sportsbike-like, the 650S has clip-ons so a different riding position (much more like the Ninja 250's 'comfy' compromise between sit-up-commuter and low-clip-on supersports). I think the US market gets a SV650SF, which has the full fairing for the sportsbike look… which is where that pic comes from. Apart from the rim tape, I think that bike is bloody good looking. Not 'beautiful' but I think I've got a dilemma brewing….
If it's really 196 kg as standard, then plus me and fluids it's as heavy as a bloody Bandit then forget it. If not - fickle cyberface has just found a new project…. and unless the SVs are stupidly tatty and unreliable, for the price of the Ninja I'm looking at a decent SV plus a grand to spend on mods.
Hands up who was expecting this? I mentioned this to my girlfriend and she smiled and said 'when are you picking it up then?' - she was convinced I couldn't keep convincing myself the 250 was fast enough. The only way this isn't going to work now is if the SV650S is heavy. You see, the pillion pad on the SV650 is big and comfy. And there's a big grab rail at the back. And Becky absolutely LOVES the SV650 because it's both very comfortable for her, and also a throbbing V-twin… she will be encouraging me to buy one. Especially if it's cheaper than the Ninja, though I'll piss through any savings on mods - suspension and tyres first, won't ever need to touch the engine other than to lighten / move the exhaust, as I don't need or want more power.
If that 196 kg figure from Suzuki's website is a 'brand new with loads of emissions kit and full tank of fuel and fat bloke on board' weight…. and in reality the bike only weighs around 10 kg or so more than my Ninja 250, then f
k the project, I'm selling the 250, buying a 5 year old SV650S at half the price and starting a project bike out of *that*.I utterly *LOVE* TimmyWimmyWoo's Triumph and it ticks a lot of boxes, but it's the 100+ bhp 150 mph supersports thing again… and it's so beautiful, I'd feel like I need to polish it every day… for the 5 or 6 days I'd own it before the pikeys steal it.
As to a project SV650… the internet comments on the SV650S reckon it takes effort to get above 110 (it'll do 125, probably, with 70 bhp) and that's good news. Don't want more power, so keeping the engine standard output should help it being insurable.
There's also loads of suspension tuning parts available, all the way to Penske shocks and fork braces. It's a V-twin, my favourite bike engine type, and unless you put silly twin exhausts on it, it's narrow as hell - with that pic above, the high level exhaust has made it even narrower.
All it needs is fairing kits to make it look more sportsbike-like, the 650S has clip-ons so a different riding position (much more like the Ninja 250's 'comfy' compromise between sit-up-commuter and low-clip-on supersports). I think the US market gets a SV650SF, which has the full fairing for the sportsbike look… which is where that pic comes from. Apart from the rim tape, I think that bike is bloody good looking. Not 'beautiful' but I think I've got a dilemma brewing….
If it's really 196 kg as standard, then plus me and fluids it's as heavy as a bloody Bandit then forget it. If not - fickle cyberface has just found a new project…. and unless the SVs are stupidly tatty and unreliable, for the price of the Ninja I'm looking at a decent SV plus a grand to spend on mods.
Hands up who was expecting this? I mentioned this to my girlfriend and she smiled and said 'when are you picking it up then?' - she was convinced I couldn't keep convincing myself the 250 was fast enough. The only way this isn't going to work now is if the SV650S is heavy. You see, the pillion pad on the SV650 is big and comfy. And there's a big grab rail at the back. And Becky absolutely LOVES the SV650 because it's both very comfortable for her, and also a throbbing V-twin… she will be encouraging me to buy one. Especially if it's cheaper than the Ninja, though I'll piss through any savings on mods - suspension and tyres first, won't ever need to touch the engine other than to lighten / move the exhaust, as I don't need or want more power.
rhinochopig said:
MC Bodge said:
rhinochopig said:
I still don't understand why Aprilia hasn't built a 400ish cc 4 stroke sports bike - they seem to have talked about it for years. They would sell like hotcakes IMO.
I do miss the days of the RD350 and RGV250 etc. Halcyon days for the younger biker.
Maybe people would appear keen initially, then look at the spec sheet and decide to buy a 600 (or 1000) sports after all, because it has more POWER?I do miss the days of the RD350 and RGV250 etc. Halcyon days for the younger biker.
What'd a supermono ride like though? Big thumper singles never really appealed to me - the supermotos I hear dicking about in London are loud and unpleasantly so, almost 'military' like some sort of firearm. Also, IMO, I see supermotos as the 'grown-up more-experienced motorcyclist' version of my old Gilera 180 scooter. Basically, a lairy urban toy for hooliganism and behaving like an utter cock. I had awesome amounts of fun, but your average Daily Mail type would have (perhaps with *some* justification) described me as 'riding like a cock'. I'm older and more experienced, but I *bet* if I had a supermoto, I'd ride like a complete cock. And that's not really what it's about for me if I can only have one bike (give me a garage, and I'll have multiple bikes, and there'll be no more problem - I've been trying to find a rental nearby for years to no avail). Of course, supermotos are *just* what the pikeys want to ride like cocks around industrial estates, so leaving it at the railway station would be as risky as a Goldman Sachs CDO squared.
Anyway - given that this is my 'all ideas welcomed' project bike / potential 'do-it-all' bike thread - let's run with the idea that the Ninja 250R was not the best starting point for what I'm after. It's fun to ride, and I'm still having fun riding it, but they retain good residuals so I'm not too bothered about moving on and admitting I made a mistake. It's looking like the only way to get 'razor' performance from the Ninja is to seriously lighten it and fit trick suspension. The rear is not a problem, I can get a fancy custom shock for that. The forks though… short of swapping them out completely, there's not much you can do. As many have pointed out, the engine isn't a good base (mea culpa, I thought I was getting 32 bhp which would have been just adequate… not 26.5 bhp, schoolboy error since I thought the A2 limits were power at the wheel, hence the Ninja 250, being made for the A2 market, would have 32 at the wheel. It doesn't) and getting near 40 bhp will require lots of bespoke tuning. Bespoke is bad - I'll say why later. If we're talking fork swaps, engine swaps, bespoke frame designs - that's getting silly. That sort of project is done from a cheap MOT failure donor bike, not a brand new machine.
So far, I haven't spent a fortune on the Ninja so there's little wasted cash. There's a can in the post, I've got a K&N to fit or re-sell, the sticky tyres would be good for the new owner if I end up selling the Ninjette, and I've still got the almost unused IRC Road Winners (though I'm not sure I'd sleep well at night if I sold them to someone on eBay, I really don't think they're that safe). The more significant money I *have* spent on bike kit has been on decent paddock stands, tools, disc locks, chains and padlocks. This stuff is equally applicable to any bike (the rear paddock stand is a cup-type for box-section swingarm bikes, but if the perfect 'new' project bike needs a different rear stand, it's only £25).
So…. admitting the mistake
, and moving on….. Next most suitable project bike is looking more and more like the Suzuki SV650S. I'm looking into the *exact* dimensions and masses of the SV650S (I will be wanting a fairing and need the pillion seat as my GF *loves* the SV650 - which adds weight, apart from the obvious exhaust I wonder where else I can lose weight?), plus insurance possibilities. I may have been given a bum steer on the 196 kg weight (which would be a dealbreaker - I want a light bike) so if the 170 kg quoted above is real, then game on. I'd probably trade the Ninja back in for a 5 year old £2k SV650, leaving me a chunk of cash to spend on making it handle and stop. The standard engine has around 70 bhp and whilst a bit too much for my *original* idea, it's obvious I'm going to have to compromise. Anyway, the bike only does 125 mph, and usually the last 15 mph take a long time and a long straight road. So I'm confident that even without much self-control, I'd be able to keep a SV650 below speed limits 80% of the time.
I gain three obvious pluses from switching to an SV650 base bike. Firstly is the engine. My favourite bike engine sound is a V-twin (so long as it isn't a Harley). Ducatis on Termignonis?
My first bike, the little Monster 600, even on standard pipes sounded wonderful. The SV650 sounds great, and since I'll be modifying the exhaust for lightness and narrowness / leanability, hopefully I'll be able to get a *beautiful* noise from it. Secondly is the pillion support, my girlfriend LOVES the SV650 seat. It's actually nice to go out for a ride with her - it makes me ride ultra-smooth and as safely as possible, helps me work on technique and smooth operation of the controls. Thirdly is the commonness of the bike itself - there are loads available to buy, which makes them cheap, and there are loads of tuning parts, so I should be able to make something reasonably uniquely *mine*. The commonness should hopefully reduce my fear of theft too, they don't stand out like an F4 Agusta amongst a load of £400 scooters in a railway bike park would...Right then - tuning parts available out there, proper Öhlins rear shock, fork upgrades, all sorts of engine bits (not interested other than exhaust), lots of exhausts (good - I utterly LOVE the sound of the V-twin). I can get one with around 20k miles on the clock for a couple of grand, there are lots of bikes available. This is encouraging. Assuming insurance is sensible and available, I can swap bikes rapido and start looking at lightening the SV650.
Anyone have one of these? Most people with them tend to tell me how great they are, haven't had anyone tell me they hated their SV650 yet. So, assuming that everyone is going to say 'good bike' - what are the bad points? I don't consider the weak-compared-to-a-gixxer power output a negative, I consider it a big plus!
Wheels and tyres - sizes - sticky tyres will be first port of call but since it's getting into the mainstream of UK bikes now… perhaps those carbon fibre wheels will be available in sizes that fit…. now THAT would lose me some weight, no? I'll try to get a black SV650S so carbon wheels don't stand out and shout 'steal me' too.
Also got some new chains and padlocks - but starting another thread for those.
So - new thread direction - what about a SV650 with full 'sportsbike' fairing, project bike tuned for lightness and handling, standard engine with no more power?
BTW - you guys and ladies are great - this is what the forum is all about - loads of different experience and information, the vast majority of it being intelligent stuff from sensible adults rather than chat-room s
te from kids (that's why my posts are long - don't see the point in one-line answers, may as well be on IRC). It's looking more and more like I made an intelligent guess that turned out to be a mistake, but whilst it's a mistake, all I've lost is a bit of money. I've still had a lot of fun on the Ninjette and would heartily recommend it to new riders who aren't straying far from town - it's a weapon in town TBH, if you want the sportsbike 'look' then it's a brilliant urban weapon. The supermotos will be quicker urban tools but they're a different type of bike.A couple of replies:
- bass GT3 - yeah, I've always loved the Buell. But there's no getting round the weight, and the litre engines are too much. Even if I put up with a naked (which I don't want) to limit top speed, the torque those things produce would, being honest with myself and my ability, be too much. Big torque means too much throttle will spin up the rear - in a corner you've got to be good not to highside, and I don't want to learn that on the road. Sadly I never did motocross as a kid;
- 3doorPete - cheers for the help, good to know you're nearby! I didn't want relentless engine tuning, and it does very much look like the Ninja will need it. So whilst I still have the same general idea, it looks like I'll have to take the advice here and start from a different bike. Lightness is still the goal though, so once it looks like a sensible plan is agreed, I'd love to meet up and see what you think of it
- BadgerBenji - sadly I'll have to disappoint you when it comes to building specials. I've never had a garage, or workshop. I'm enthusiastic but have no off-street parking or much in the way of flat land. Building a 'special', to me, means making something different out of existing parts. Bespoke parts are a problem for me, not only because since I'd have to outsource the fabrication I'd be held by the balls of my 'helpers' if I needed new parts, but also due to cost and because I couldn't get involved. My modified cars have always been 'cheque-book' affairs because I don't have anywhere to build a special myself. However, with a bike, I have a decent set of tools, enthusiasm, just about enough mechanical competence to disassemble and reassemble stuff, and I can do this on the small flat bit of road outside my house. You may sneer at it as 'cheque-book bolt-ons' - but to me that's more than I've ever done before. Even just replacing an exhaust can myself will be a new experience and great fun (actually I've done this with my old scooter, but this is different). It won't be *truly* unique, just my personal choice of off-the-shelf parts… so a 'parts-bin special' if you like. But what I gain from *that* is the ready ability to repair or replace parts if they fail. A one-off titanium fabrication that failed would be much more of a job to replace… unless you're a SolidWorks guru with a CNC mill in your workshop. It's baby steps, which is why I'm starting with a cheap, basic bike. But I'm going to have a lot of fun!
Sorry for the essay, BTW. Lots of replies in one post.
Kawasicki said:
cyberface said:
I can't imagine anything more frustrating than owning a *sports* machine that is designed and built to be ridden hard - and only being able to ride at 10% unless I had absolutely no regard for the laws of the land, speed limits, or safety.
I would advise against modifying the sv650, if you make it more competent at speed, you will spend more time at speed. You really should think about this. DO YOU WANT TO GO FAST OR NOT? A sorted sv650 will be friggin' rapid on a country road. 65bhp, 170kg and good tyres and suspension will mean big corner speed leading to BIG speed on the following straight. Which is great, if that's what you want. Buy an old aprilia RS125, or an old RGV125, ride it and enjoy it. You might actually spend some time under the speed limit! The problem is with more than 100 bhp at the rear wheel, you can bumble round a corner slowly, and then be well over 120 mph on the next straight. This, to me, isn't what I like about biking - I like the thrill of cornering fast, high G-forces round *bends* and not just straight-line speed.Yes, a modded SV650 will be very quick in the corners - and that's what I want. I'm keeping the engine standard, and with 70 bhp you're going to have to work hard to get over 'jail' speeds on twisty roads. Yes, on a dual carriageway, with lots of room, wind it on and hang on for a minute or so and it'll get up to 125 (IIRC) but I'm more concerned about flagrantly illegal speeds on the short straights between corners on twisty A roads and B roads… even though I'll be able to go quick on the SV, I reckon even riding *well* (and I'm not Rossi) I'd be doing well to be going over 100 mph at any point on a twisty road. Which fulfils my requirement w.r.t. avoiding jail and 'crazy' speeds.
The problem with the 250 was that I had to bail out of so many overtakes on my favourite twisty roads because I didn't have the power-to-weight to accelerate past the car… that not only did my 'hoon' rides get interrupted by being stuck behind cars, but also safety was compromised. As someone put it - not enough power to get out of trouble...
HertsBiker said:
genuinely fascinating. Your thought processes are close to mine.
CB - if you want a chat, PM me. I'll be at work tomorrow so can pick up emails then.
Hi fella - if you mean me by 'CB' then sorry - things have been crazy at work AND I've been in the middle of a major server upgrade - email has been down. It's back up now though, so email me if you like - would appreciate your experience in these matters!CB - if you want a chat, PM me. I'll be at work tomorrow so can pick up emails then.
cheeers
Just got back from a test ride on the SV650…
Ha ha ha, that bike is SO much fun… the example I was testing hadn't been prepped for sale, it'd been obviously used as a commuter since both front and rear tyres were pretty much flat down the middle, and still had 2 inch chicken strips either side.
<<<<cut>>>>>
Will start a new thread about this one, doesn't really belong in a thread about the Ninja 250…
Ha ha ha, that bike is SO much fun… the example I was testing hadn't been prepped for sale, it'd been obviously used as a commuter since both front and rear tyres were pretty much flat down the middle, and still had 2 inch chicken strips either side.
<<<<cut>>>>>
Will start a new thread about this one, doesn't really belong in a thread about the Ninja 250…
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