T5 Gearbox Linkage

[ChimpOnGas]

Hi guys, has anyone deleted the TVR designed gear linkage system by chaining the tail housing on their Chim/Griff T5 box?

Here's the natural T5 gear stick position with the tail housing we have.



Here's how TVR moved the gearstick forward.



Here's a T5 with the S10 tail housing.



You can buy an S10 tail housing fairly cheaply and it looks like it should bolt straight up to our TVR T5 box placing the gear stick in the right place without the need for the TVR linkage.



Is this what TVR did with the T5 in the Tuscan ect, and would it work on a Chimaera?

The thinking is deleting the TVR linkage and replacing it with the S10 T5 tail housing would improve the feel of the box.

Thoughts

[ChimpOnGas]

sonnylad said:

Hi Dave,

Have you seen this:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

May answer your question

Not seen that Russ, thanks for the link mate, looks like the S10 rear housing to me.

This comment is revealing:

"Fitting the later style T5 with the lever further forward is one of the best mods I did"

Seems I may be thinking the same way as others.

[ChimpOnGas]

J400GED said:

peaktorque said:

If it ain't broke, then why fix it?

^^^^ What he said.

I think you need to leave your caves boys, the point is it isn't broke, but it certainly could be better!

The linkage used by TVR in their first T5 equipped cars (Chim & Griffs) was soon deleted by TVR themselves when later models appeared with the same box.

Question: So why didn't TVR just carry on with their Chim/Griff linkage in these later models?

Answer: Because the setup is not as good as what Borg Warner offered with their properly engineered S10 tail housing

All I'm saying is if you try a Tuscan, Tamora, T350 or Sagaris T5 box you'll immediately notice the shift feel is infinitely better than on a Chim or Griff. The box itself is of course exactly the same, the difference in feel comes exclusively from the S10 tail housing which is clearly a much much better way to move the gear stick position forward than TVR's effort.

From this...



(A bit Heath Robinson)

To this:



(Much better, offering improved feel when engaging gears = more driving pleasure)


If we all sat by and said "if it ain't broke, why fix it"... we would all still be running carburetors and contact breaker points.

Even TVR who themselves designed the Chim & Griff T5 linkage knew this, which is why when the opportunity presented itself... they deleted it in favor of the significantly better S10 tail housing.

It's called development chaps, and development doesn't stop because you need to fabricate a simple bracket!

[ChimpOnGas]

J400GED said:

I appreciate what you are saying Dave. In your opinion then, it is broken in respect of being able to get better feel to the gearchange by using the S10 tail housing.

"It's called development chaps, and development doesn't stop because you need to fabricate a simple bracket!" I am well aware of this point.
I am also very well aware that development does stop when the financial outlay outweighs the perceived benefits of said development.
It's not a case of sitting in one's cave, it's a case of perceived benefits versus investment.
In your opinion it is worth it, I am not saying whether you should or shouldn't do it, just don't put people down because they question your suggestions.

I get the whole cost vs benefit equation, but that has to be viewed on a personal level, and personally I certainly wouldn't do it on a whim but if the box needs to come out for say a clutch job surely it's an idea worth exploring?

db484bhpv8 said:

Talk to John Reid at Readman racing
He offers this as an upgrade.
Only problem is you need to make up a new mounting.

If John Reid at Readman racing is already offering this there must be some merit in it.

From what I've seen on EBay a used but serviceable S10 tail housing for the T5 can be had for around £120, if John Reid is already offering the mod I suspect he'll also make you up a bracket to a pastern he keeps.

The tail housing will bolt right up, and an adapter bracket is an adapter bracket, so it doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility to do the whole thing for £200?

Personally I'd say that's not much to add if the box is coming out anyway, especially when we know the rewards are going to be a much nicer shift.

I always think it's the little details like brake pedal feel, gear shift quality, steering feel ect that make the car.

[ChimpOnGas]

db484bhpv8 said:

J400GED said:

I couldn't agree more with you Dave - if you have £200.

Anyway, moving on, would the gear lever now come out centrally on the tunnel with this mod and, if so, how close would that put it to the handbrake?

IIRC the gear lever needs a dogleg

Makes sense, but a bit like the bracket the dog leg isn't exactly a deal breaker.

What we need is kit; tail housing, bracket & dog leg gear stick adapter.

Or buy a box out of a Tuscan

[ChimpOnGas]

stevesprint said:

That’s exact what I did when I installed the T5 into my Precat as seen in the last picture of the first post in this thread. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I chopped and welded the Griff, sorry chimmy lever (I keep forgetting I'm a visitor) to an adapter block I had machined. I can explain further but my approach was a little over engineered and not as elegant as g8ape blue lever adapter. Its worth keeping the rubber bush as it stops the heat travelling up the gear level.

You can also see in the second to last picture my support bracket that I fabricated which isn’t very complicated, in fact its easy to make in situ especially as you should recognise the middle section. For a further description have a read half way down this page, http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I'll now crawl back to the Griff cave with my 14CUX and electric powered assisted steering so if you have any questions please do not hesitate to come and find me.
Best Wishes, Steve Sprint

Great post Steve Sprint, and good pish taking of my earlier cave comment, I love a it of banter

Thanks, Dave

[ChimpOnGas]

BoostedChim said:

Hi Dave, did you order a tail housing in the end? I've just ordered one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Borg-Warner-Tremec-T5-S1... I've also found someone else to send me the shorter shaft for the top cover and an old electronic speedo sensor to blank the hole.

Nice find Boosted, and no I've not progressed the idea myself as I've been refurbishing my new house which seems to involve spending everything I've ever managed to save so I can live in a building site while all around me gets covered in a thick layer of dust.

I can see all the TVR goodies slipping away from me with every day so I'll leave this little gearbox mod to you. Please update us on how it all pans out.

Yours "very skint" Dave.

Ps: Thank fek for the LPG or I doubt she'd turn a wheel this year, still there's always my annual dash to Le Mans to look forward to

[ChimpOnGas]

450Nick said:

Hi all, I thought I'd just pipe up and say that I had this mod done a couple of weeks ago off the back of this thread and a chat with John Reid and it works great! I ordered the bits from John and he sent me:

- A reconditioned (looked brand new) S10 tail
- New top section with all new bushes and the new selector etc so that the two complete units could just be swapped straight over (doing it in pieces can apparently get very tricky).

I had Dave Batty install the bits which he would have done in a day, except for one issue which we missed; the remote linkage in the Chimaera actually offsets the gear lever by about 2 inches toward the driver, so you can't just put the old lever back on. In the end Dave fabricated a dogleg lever which seems to work perfectly, and also like has been mentioned here he had to fabricate two plates to shift the mounting points to line up with the originals (which he said was very straightforward).

Would I recommend it? Yes definitely. The gearchange is much, much slicker and more like a .22 rifle bolt action now which makes the car even more of a pleasure to drive. The only thing is that now the gearchange is so nice and slick, it almost feels like the throw is a little longer than it needs to be so I've just a Burton Short shift kit which will be going on this week. I shall report back if it fits with a short review

P.S. What was also very interesting was that Dave said the inside of the gearbox looked like new, despite me having run a supercharger and somewhere over 400bhp & ft/lbs for several years now, including track days and several dyno sessions. So for all who are wondering on the life of T5 - it is fine with big power as long as you drive it properly

Edited by 450Nick on Wednesday 23 September 18:48

Brilliant

[ChimpOnGas]

BoostedChim said:

I had the first test run in mine last night and it is much improved. I've been meaning to post some pictures. When I asked John Reid he said they won't sell the parts as kit and wanted me to sent the box up to them.

I took lots of measurements from points on the chassis & ground to make sure the output shaft ended up in same place with the new rear mount.


Stripping the box


While the transmission tunnel was empty I covered as much as I could fibreglass in heat reflective cloth, I find with the roof on it can get a bit hot especially in traffic.


New position, I used the green arrows to line up where the old lever came through


New rear mount, I had to modify it a bit further as after I took the photo as the back hit the exhuast box. My hammerite skills arent the best!

This is excellent stuff Boosted thanks for actually doing the mod then presenting here, rather than just talking about it like me.

Ok I started this post because the S10 tail housing made a lot of sense to me and let's be honest even TVR admitted their linkage was less than ideal by the fact they deleted it in the later T cars.

I got a bit distracted by a T56 for a while but have come full circle back to my original S10 idea. I've just put my money where my mouth is and bought an S10 tail housing so your photos of the job will come in really helpful.

I now need some advise on the quick shift element, I see you pointed to this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Core-Hurst-SST-Shifter-Bas...

If you read the seller's description it seems there are actually quite few options on offer, any idea what I need exactly?

Many thanks for any advise you can give but especially for taking the lead and getting the mod done.

Now I have the S10 tail housing I would be grateful if you could make a simple list of the other components I'll need to finish the job (bracket, correct quick shifter and the right gear lever, ect).

Cheers, Dave

[ChimpOnGas]

Sardonicus said:

This kind of Daz And thanks to the contributors this is such a cheap and easy mod if I would of known this was so available I would have done it sooner or when the car was off the road whilst engine work

Edited by Sardonicus on Sunday 11th October 19:47

Love it Simon, you should have been a graphic designer

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Do you just change the linkage ?

Daz, here are some comments from people that have already done the mod or know about it's benefits...

db484bhpv8 said:

Talk to John Reid at Readman racing He offers this as an upgrade

450Nick said:

Hi all, I thought I'd just pipe up and say that I had this mod done a couple of weeks ago off the back of this thread and a chat with John Reid and it works great!, Would I recommend it? Yes definitely. The gearchange is much, much slicker and more like a .22 rifle bolt action now which makes the car even more of a pleasure to drive. The only thing is that now the gearchange is so nice and slick, it almost feels like the throw is a little longer than it needs to be so I've just a Burton Short shift kit which will be going on this week. I shall report back if it fits with a short review

BoostedChim said:

I had the first test run in mine last night and it is much improved

I don't claim the S-10 tail housing idea as mine, far from it clearly John Reid at Readman racing has been doing it for years and even before that TVR themselves deleted their own rather Heath Robinson linkage by the time they had released the Tuscan, all TVR models from the Tuscan on had this S-10 tail housing on the T5 gearbox.

I started this post before I knew John Reid was doing it but it came as no surprise to me when I found out he was already doing it. I simply looked at TVRs Heath Robinson linkage and knowing it was a weakness then looked at how TVR subsequently deleted it on the Tuscan/T350/Sagaris models.

If you think about it the TVR linkage is a rather comically complex way of moving the gear stick position approximately 6" forward on the box. It uses a whole host of joints that are inevitably all subject to play & slop to send your shifting action down to the back of the tail housing only for it all to be transmitted back up to the front again where it meets the selector forks.

That's nuts when you think about it, to get the best feel from a T5 (or any gearbox) you want the gear lever as close to the shifter forks as possible, and to do it with as few joints as possible.

TVR used the excellent Borg Warner T5 from 1995 on, this box is well known for it's lovely shift qualities and feel. In the Griffs & Chims, TVR then set about deleting these sweet shifting traits by adding their own linkage in order to just get the gear stick in the right place.

The truth is there's a much much better way of making sure the gear stick exits the transmission tunnel in the correct place than adding the overly complex and full of joints solution TVR gave us.

And the results speak for themselves....

450Nick said:

Hi all, I thought I'd just pipe up and say that I had this mod done a couple of weeks ago off the back of this thread and a chat with John Reid and it works great!, Would I recommend it? Yes definitely. The gearchange is much, much slicker and more like a .22 rifle bolt action now which makes the car even more of a pleasure to drive. The only thing is that now the gearchange is so nice and slick, it almost feels like the throw is a little longer than it needs to be so I've just a Burton Short shift kit which will be going on this week. I shall report back if it fits with a short review

BoostedChim said:

I had the first test run in mine last night and it is much improved

The Chimera is a driver's car!

Any improvement to the tactile pleasure and feedback the driver enjoys when connecting with the car's controls makes for a significantly better driver's car.

And improving the gear shift is one of the best things you can do to any driver's car!

[ChimpOnGas]

450Nick said:

So I picked up the car last week with the short shift kit on from the bloke with the Tuscan (cheers Dave C). It was a tight fit to get in there, and Dave B made up a dog-leg gear lever mount to offset it to the correct location (around 2" to the right of the gearbox centreline). To do this by the way, he used the base of a Cerbera gearstick, as it has a vibration and heat insulating bush type thing which will stop the gearstick getting hot and buzzing too much. It all works very well though now, and the gearshift throw is nice and short. I haven't had much of a chance to drive it properly, but it seems very eager to change gear, and the shifts are very positive with the gearstick held absolutely tight when in a position. You can more or less change gear with a finger movement now which goes extremely well with the character of the engine. Great stuff

Brilliant stuff, really pleased to hear how well this mod worked out for you.

Mine goes in to Lloyd Specialist Developments on the 28th November to get it all fitted along along with the new lighter clutch and a few other little enhancements.

I should have finally accumulated all the bits and bobs by then

Once it's all done I'm looking forward to a super slick gearshift and a lovely light clutch action which should really enhance the driving pleasure I already get from 'Ol Gasbag'

Thanks for your feedback 450Nick

[ChimpOnGas]

MPoxon said:

Dave - another very useful thread, thank you very much. I like your thinking of getting the best out of what we have without spending a fortune and keeping originality. What clutch are you going for? feel free to point me in the direction of a thread if there is one.

The AP clutch from TVR Power seems like the way to go,it's proven to take big power yet remains nice and light.

But Lloyd Specialist Developments have their own solution and stand by it. I've only had good products and services from LSD so while I was a bit cautious to step away from the proven AP unit, after a long chat I accepted their proposed clutch.

Apparently it has a lovely light action and the Lloyd team have at least one Supercharged Chimaera customer running it without issue. So seeing as they will be supplying and fitting it and that they always stand by their parts and labor, I've chosen to go with their recommended clutch.

I will put my trust in Lloyd Specialist Developments again, simply because they have not let me down yet.

That's good enough for me

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

I have the AP clutch ,one up from what power sell ..My legs feels like its going to drop off in heavy traffic .

Why can`t something be done with the hydraulics ?

Because hydraulic advantage is much the same as gearing.

IE, you never get something for nothing (travel vs weight).

Two options to solve the issue once & for all...

1. Fit a twin plate clutch like those offered by McLoed or Centerforce

2. Fit a clutch servo as Anthony has

You can also look to alter the pedal design & upper pivot to get some more leverage but this will only help to a certain degree.

I've simply gone with the Lloyd team's supercharged Chimaera tried & tested clutch recipe which apparently is also nice & light, I will keep everyone updated on it's weight and feel when it's fitted in December.

And after that I'll be monitoring it's longevity & durability over many thousands of happy & cheap to fuel 'Gas Bag' miles.

Dave

[ChimpOnGas]

BoostedChim said:

Another tip for anyone doing this, I cut the bottom off my S10 tail. It sticks out lower than the main box case and looked like it would probably get damaged on speed bumps easily. Heres a photo of how it sits with exhaust.

Thanks for that Andy

[ChimpOnGas]

OK so my S-10 Housing turned up today



It's not brand new as advertised but it is in perfect condition from what I can see and came with a new end seal which is nice

Unlike the seller's Ebay listing photo it also has the electric speedo pickup still in place, so I needn't have bought the expensive fancy schmancy plug in the end

I'm happy to see the parts for this project arriving, I still have six weeks before the car goes to Lloyds for the lighter clutch, S-10 mods and my new 19lbs steel flywheel... so I'm well ahead of schedule.

[ChimpOnGas]

BoostedChim said:

It looks likes it missing it breather. Mine came with one but it was split, its a hollow rubber mushroom that pushes into the shifter box. I haven't managed to find them for sale, I would try John Reid and see if he has any spares otherwise it'll slowly leak oil.

Good spot there Andy, Grrrr more stuff to buy

[ChimpOnGas]

Sardonicus said:

Just tap the hole and screw in a barbed fitting fit a hose then you can vent it to where you want I will give you a proper solution when mine arrives

Thanks Simon, I agree, a simple breather solution is not beyond the whit of man

That rubber button vent in Andy's photo looks like something I've seen on Jap stuff before (Mitsubishi, Hyundai ect).

Using a right angle fitting to raise the breather point above the point of splash would make sense to me, a quick look at the hole says a ⅛" BSP brass fitting might work?

Something like this:



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-8-Male-Bsp-X-6-mm-Elbo...

All I need is a ⅛" BSP tap

My S10 tail housing came with a nice corrosion protective mist coating of ATF, so it's possible the breather bung had been missing a while

[ChimpOnGas]

Sardonicus said:

Thats the kind or thing or these push fittings have proved reliable so far these are only M6 thread and 4mm pipe though but are available in bigger sizes and your correct the Jap stuff use those push on rubber breathers they always fell of when refitting Honda boxes easily rectified push on's

[

Edited by Sardonicus on Thursday 15th October 13:09

I can confirm it's a 10mm hole we're dealing with here Simon.

Let us know what you can come up with, perhaps you can think of something fitted with a 10mm rubber mushroom push fit hose fitting (cam cover breather or similar)??

[ChimpOnGas]

Sardonicus said:

uess what size an 80's auto Honda gearbox vent bung is? or if your really fussy

Edited by Sardonicus on Thursday 15th October 13:57

Nice, looks good, but doesn't it need to be facing north?