Aftermarket ECUs
Discussion
After finally getting fed up with electrical problems I have finally decided to bite the bullet and replace the wiring harness and ECU.
I have done a bit of research reading threads on here and have come to the conclusion that MBE, Canems and emerald are all comparable and ms2 is not such good quality, all I am trying to do is make the car more reliable in the long term.
Do all the above have just a one year guarantee.
The three main players in the market all good reputations and are all about 3 hours drive from me but I may have a closer alternative for the Emerald install.
Your thoughts please gentleman.
I have done a bit of research reading threads on here and have come to the conclusion that MBE, Canems and emerald are all comparable and ms2 is not such good quality, all I am trying to do is make the car more reliable in the long term.
Do all the above have just a one year guarantee.
The three main players in the market all good reputations and are all about 3 hours drive from me but I may have a closer alternative for the Emerald install.
Your thoughts please gentleman.
450Nick said:
motul1974 said:
Speaking of the OEM Gems system Nick.....hows yours going and do you think Sprint will ever get around to publishing your article?
...living it hope!
Adrian
Hi Adrian! The GEMS system is working extremely well now; the car is absolutely stunning to drive. It's almost weirdly smooth even at walking pace in 5th - I'm well pleased with it!...living it hope!
Adrian
Regarding the article, I have been reliably told that it will be in the next issue of Sprint (July) so hopefully you'll see it soon
Classic Chim said:
N7GTX said:
In a similar vein I would not go anywhere else than Powers. With the rich TVR heritage this company has (they have your original engine build sheets) plus all the upgrades and in-house engine manufacturing in their amazing workshop, including their AJP engines - 4.7 litre anyone? - as well as RV8s, its no wonder many TVR owners take their cars to them. Not only owners but other TVR specialists send their engines to Dom for rebuilding/testing/upgrading. That in itself speaks volumes and one of the reasons I chose Powers for my upgrades. Who else offers a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty? And that is using only 10/40 or 15/40 semi-synthetic oil. No synthetic stuff here and indeed its use would invalidate the warranty.
It should be remembered that MBE developed and supplied the ECU for the birth of the Cerbera 4.2 V8 and had been supplying ECUs prior to that so perhaps one of the reasons why Powers chose MBE over others.
http://www.mbesystems.com/case_study_tvr.html
Oh, and Dom is a real gentleman to boot. Pity its a 4 hour round trip to see him.......
P.S. The AJP V8 MBE 9A9 ecu is fully sequential (fuel and ignition) if required.
It should be remembered that MBE developed and supplied the ECU for the birth of the Cerbera 4.2 V8 and had been supplying ECUs prior to that so perhaps one of the reasons why Powers chose MBE over others.
http://www.mbesystems.com/case_study_tvr.html
Oh, and Dom is a real gentleman to boot. Pity its a 4 hour round trip to see him.......
P.S. The AJP V8 MBE 9A9 ecu is fully sequential (fuel and ignition) if required.
,I enjoyed reading that little lot.
As can be seen and heard from the responses they all do a good job regardless of Ecu brand. Loom is a big part and then locality of mapper/ installer/ quality of workmanship.
You can't really fault any of the main dealers who are offering this upgrade and I agree it's essentially around the same initial cost regardless of who installs it. Unless you go DIY of course.
We are indeed lucky there are alternatives and competition.
The system is only as good as the mapper and again in Lloyds Joolz and Jason at Powers we have experts. How many TVR has Jason mapped for instance.
All good choices.
This fully sequential firing stuff,,,, ability to tinker etc,
Why. I really can't fault how my car runs so what benifits would this bring.
Once mapped its adaptive upto set % perimeters etc so unless you have a change of engine character it will self adjust.
Once your maps are working well in all conditions you wouldn't want to change them would you?
The Tvr chip in the CUX is working pretty well on cars that are nearly 20 years old and so shows fuelling is never going to be miles out unless something's wrong so as I'm assuming my new Ecu is more than capable of fine tuning and should not need re mapping very often,,, is this nieve of me,,, am I missing something ?
Ok we have the geeks,,,,, long live the geeks but most blokes considering this at some point don't want to have to re set or adjust things unless necessary or keep fine tuning it. I want it fine tuned by the mapper then hopefully not need to touch it for years.....
My engine state of tune should stay pretty much the same for years unless it wears,,,,
It's constantly wearing but my logic says CUX cars have the same chip it left the factory with sometimes 100,000 + miles on the clock and it still works!!!!
We shouldn't need to adjust or again am I missing a mechanical fundermentsl or something?
Since mines been installed coming up 2 years now
it's had idle adjustment made once and nothing else. Some % perimeter changes for self adjustment but that would only come into effect if something was badly amis so no changes to its map. Still exactly the same as the day it was mapped really. Starts exactly the same every time and runs as if fully warm in this weather instantly from cold.
Best thing I ever did for the longevity of my re built engine.
My single biggest satisfaction is how the engine oil stays cleaner for much longer. 2000 before it was black as your hat, now 4000 and it's still brown,,, get in there.
My thoughts exactly, for someone like me who is just concerned with future reliability I don't think you can go wrong with any of the main three suppliers it's a shame they are not a bit closer to sunny Essex.
Edited by trev4 on Friday 30th June 08:40
Boosted LS1 said:
The cross bolted blocks have a rear mounting point for the sensor, the early blocks don't. So, if you plan to use a Gems flywheel you need a cross bolted block.
The trigger wheel pictured above won't work. The Gems trigger pattern is pretty unique hence why it's not an 'off the shelf' item. It has to be manufactured from a lump of metal as opposed to being something like pressed steel.
I have done a few for chevrolets and could do one for a tvr but it would need to be fitted very precisely to get accurate timing. You also need a cam sensor.
This is as I understood it when speaking to Mark AdamsThe trigger wheel pictured above won't work. The Gems trigger pattern is pretty unique hence why it's not an 'off the shelf' item. It has to be manufactured from a lump of metal as opposed to being something like pressed steel.
I have done a few for chevrolets and could do one for a tvr but it would need to be fitted very precisely to get accurate timing. You also need a cam sensor.
portzi said:
trev4 said:
Well after a visit to Mat Smith this morning It looks like my preferred option of going for the Gems system is out of the running as I don't have a block that could be cross bolted, apparently the 4.5s and later 5lt cars should be ok, so it's back to the usual suspects for my 4lt
So the above information is not 100% reliable then, Matt Smith has not confirmed that the GEMS installation will not fit all the RV8 engine variants?I too am looking at purchasing a new ECU and harness, and don't want to get this wrong, as the GEMS is an excellent system and a popular choice, with Mark Adams as one of the best options for the installation.
Edited by portzi on Sunday 16th July 06:22
Classic Chim said:
450Nick said:
That's exactly right, you're leveraging all of the good work done by LR by using the same ECU with the same sensors in the correct positions, so its essentially an OEM installation.
Exactly. Way up there this is. 
Well I can't believe it has taken me so long to make a decision, but after my initial disappointment of not being able to go down to Gems route I found it difficult to choose between the rest of the offerings, that said I have decided to go for the Emerald system.
My decision was helped by the fact that Mat Smith. Sports Cars are now offering a in house service to install and map the Emerald system, after seeing the one they had fitted on Mat's race car it was a easy decision.
My decision was helped by the fact that Mat Smith. Sports Cars are now offering a in house service to install and map the Emerald system, after seeing the one they had fitted on Mat's race car it was a easy decision.
Engineer1949 said:
i have fitted several emeralds to cars with cats still in place in fact the yellow chim i am working on is still fully catted ,just as an aside has mat now got a set of rollers i supplied him the emerald which is in his race car i believe he is unbeaten this season great result not least of all down to the emerald and mats fantastic wheel work.
john
I think Mats plan for mine was to trailer it up to Joolz as I had it mapped there last year, he thought it would be good to get like for like results.john
I'm not sure what his long term plan is.
ChimpOnGas said:
mk1fan said:
Fair enough, if it works it works.
I think I'd fit both to just have one cycle rather than an on-off cycling of a (heavy) electrical load.
The idea certainly has potential merit on paper, so some time ago I fitted a Davies Craig electric booster water pump (EBP) that runs on the fans circuit, I've run this system on both a permanent live setup and an ignition switched live. Theory suggests running the fans and keeping the coolant moving after engine switch off should reduce heat surge, but I like to test theories as that's the only way to find out what really happens for sure.I think I'd fit both to just have one cycle rather than an on-off cycling of a (heavy) electrical load.
I've carefully monitored what happens when the engine is switched off to test both setups, to create the most testing situation in each case I turned off the engine just as the fans chimed in, I conducted the tests on a hot summers day when ambient tempts were in the high 80's. True coolant temp readings were taken at the top hose using the Davies Craig temp sensor and at the inlet manifold using my Canems ECU software, I also used my IR gun on the same spot on each head and the thermostat housing.
To be honest the results surprised me.... running the EBP and fans after engine switch off made little to no difference when compared with a traditional switch off that also turns the fans off at the same time.
As Steve_D quite rightly points out this is because of the well known principle of thermosypon, even with the engine off and the engine driven water pump not moving, coolant still circulates. Just like air, hot liquids rise and cool liquids fall, this creates a directional flow and so the coolant circulates without any help whatsoever. The radiator is just a heat exchanger, so while increasing airflow helps it's the surface area of the core and the volume of coolant the system holds that has a greater bearing of efficiency. Obviously, when you turn the engine off it stops making heat, so while you definitely need the rad fans and water pump at idle on a hot day, as it turns out you need neither when the engine is switched off
Being all aluminum the engine seems extremely good at shedding heat by itself, it's already pretty effective operating as an aircooled engine when compared with cast iron block & head arrangements. You can see this air cooling effect as we enter the winter months, on a fast motorway run on an icy cold day my 88 degree thermostat will be virtually completely closed, the engine effectively becomes a closed circuit, like this my Canems software will show the engine running at 83 degrees.
Put quite simply I found after properly testing and gathering real world data there's very little benefit in running the fans after switch off even on the hottest day right at the point my fans come on and at idle (no natural airflow). The Davies Craig EBP made naff all difference too, I left it fitted as it has potential benefits in forcing coolant around my LPG vaporiser so reducing the time it takes to switch from petrol to LPG on cold start, but to be honest the car cold starts on LPG just fine without it, but it's nice to be able force it on as it also helps improve heater efficiency in the winter months.
Following the results of my tests I decided to return to a switched live for the fans and EBP, when I switch the engine off the fans and EBP go off too, I just let thermosyphon do it's thing because it's electrically safer that way, on the permanent live setup as I walked away from the car with the fans & EBP running I couldnt help feeling if fan relay was stuck I could easily return to a car with a flat battery. Actually that would never happen as I have a Battery Brain that cuts the battery if voltage falls below a certain level.
But with it proven there's no real benefit in running the fans and EBP after switch off, I decided to return to the simpler and safer switched live setup. In summary..... another good idea in theory debunked in the real world by testing it and studying the data
I would rather have a sweet running road car that I track now and then than go all out for bhp I'm sure Mat and Joolz will deliver that for me. I just thought it would be great to break the 300bhp in a 4lt. Having said that once the Emerald is fitted it would be much easier to fit a turbo in the future.
ChimpOnGas said:
trev4 said:
Although I am having the Emerald system fitted for reliability reasons I was wondering if I will gain any more hp I need another 16hp to get my 4lt to 300, thoughts please.
I wouldn't count on it, I'm assuming your target of 300hp is a peak power figure?When talking engine tuning, peak power figures are such a tiny part of the story they really shouldn't be our sole focus, because lets face it you can easily make the engine's peak power with a carb and a dizzy. You just need the dizzy to give the right number of degrees of advance and the carb to deliver the right AFR.
The exact AFR & timing figures settled on by your mapper to produce peak power will be determined by the octane of fuel used, elevation above sea level, the air temp on the day, and your engine specification. The peak figure and everything in between idle and peak should be found using a dyno. if your compression ratio is still in the region of 9.5:1 you'll probably end up with an absolute maximum of 36 degrees @ 4,000rpm and staying there until 5,500rpm , after 5.5k (poss 6k) you'll be pulling timing slightly as you fall away from peak power. On the fueling side you'll probably find 12.8:1 showing 98kPa @ WOT is about where you'll end up, any richer and you'll likely make no more power so just be wasting fuel.
So if it's peak horsepower pub bragging rights you're shooting for you can easily achieve all the above with with a distributor and a carb, the 14CUX offers better fueling control than most carbs as will your Emerald, but neither will give you any peak power benefit because the engine doesn't know or care if it's getting 36 degrees and 12.8:1 from a dizzy and carb or the worlds most sophisticated engine management system.... 36 degrees and 12.8:1 @ 6k WOT is still 36 degrees and 12.8:1 no matter how its achieved.
However, the 14CUX airflow meter is in itself a small restriction, when you move to Emerald you'll be doing away with this restriction as you'll be binning your hot wire AFM for a straight through pipe with an air temp sensor in it, which is zero restriction. This reduction in intake restriction may give you 3-5% more power at the very top end if you're lucky.... but that's about it.
But here's the thing, fixating on peak power figures is not really what engine tuning is all about, like I say you can easily achieve the timing and air fuel ratio you need to achieve peak power with a basic distributor and carb setup. Beyond the tiny 3-5% that removing the AFM will give you, what you're properly mapped Emerald is going to deliver is better cold and hot starts, a smoother idle, lower engine and exhaust temps at idle, better throttle response, better low speed drivability and a measurable increase in fuel economy.
The holy grail for any engine designer and tuner is to deliver peak power over the widest possible rev band, producing peak power at maximum RPM and wide open throttle is the easy bit, because the truth is you could actually achieve that with locked timing and a bucket of petrol with the right sized hole in the bottom of it
Try not to fall into the peak power bragging rights arms race, it BS really, what you're buying with your new Emerald system is greater efficiency through far superior control of timing and fueling, not a bigger peak horsepower number. Quite simply you should end up with an engine that's nicer and more rewarding to use everywhere from idle to peak power. And it's that big fat world of loveliness between idle and peak power you spend your time in, in fact the uncomfortable truth none of us want to admit is if you really analyze your driving on our crowded UK roads the important area of benefit will be found where you spend 95% of your time.. and that is between idle and 2,500rpm with a bit of 3,000rpm motorway cruising thrown in.
Step away from the peak power arms race for a moment, and try to focus on the true benefits your Emerald will deliver...
- Better cold & hot starts
- Better idle quality
- Lower engine & exhaust temps at idle
- Better throttle response
- Better drivability
- Better fuel economy
- Potentially better overall reliability
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