Breakdown

[Chimp871]

I'm writing this from a recovery truck with my 450 on strapped down on the trailer.

Going along m42 at slow speeds tonight and the engine suddenly cut out whilst in the middle lane.

Pushed myself over to the hard shoulder.

Turned the key and the fuel pump primes, engine will crank healthily but it wouldn't start. Checked leads, sensor plugs - all good. Never happened before so I thought perhaps I've got a hot start problem. Waited 20 mins (had rung recovery sercice by now) but the same - fuel pump will prime, engine will turn over but no start. Unplugged ecu and relays in footwell, repeated start - no success.

Had my laptop with me so out comes rovergauge to see if there's anything obvious. No fault codes thrown, pump relay is fine.

So I'm at a loss to where the problem could be. The coil and ignition amp are under a year old but may try the old ones again.

Would the 100 amp fuse cause this? I'd think the starter wouldn't turn if it was that.

Any ideas?

[Chimp871]

.... Just thinking I should have checked under dizzy cap!

[Chimp871]

So recharged battery and tried again, same result.

Spark plug lead tester out and no spark.

So..... Dave is sending me a pm on the immobiliser so assume immobiliser controls fuel pump and spark? Is it strange for the fuel pump to work but not spark? My brain both work or both don't.

Meanwhile I'll root around for me previous coil pack and ign module.

[Chimp871]

Edit: checked inertia switch that and pushed it, it wasn't out.

Did check voltage to coil pack in ignition and demobilised modes and zero volts, switched to old coil pack and the same so its whatever feeds volts to the coil pack. Are we heading to an immobiliser problem?

Thanks Dave for the message, need to read and digest this evening.

Edited by Chimp871 on Thursday 11th January 11:16

[Chimp871]

The coil pack now has 12v as I was reading it across the terminals not terminal to the coil body (ground), durr! So 12v is now available.

However, changed the dizzy cap, rotor and HT leads to my old (& original) set and now I've got spark, not sure how strong it is but it's a spark nonetheless. Dizzy does rotate and there's nothing obviously wrong with the old leads, rotor arm, dizzy cap.

May have reconnected wrong firing order on HT lead to cap but I'll look into that and the engine must be flooded with fuel after all the attempts to turn her over so will wait awhile.

Still don't trust that immobiliser though!!

[Chimp871]

Struggling to fire up even with throttle wide open

This is the firing order I've got. You can hear it false firing but isn't close to taking. Is this the only firing order for our cars?

[Chimp871]

If the immobiliser works fuel pump and ign amp module seaprately then it could still be an issue.

I've not known a flooded car engine not start with WOT and a strong crank. I thought the spark I got from changing dizzy cap/rotor arm was the solution. But if the ign amp module is waiting for the immobiliser I could still be in trouble.

[Chimp871]

update.
So 100 & 80 amp fuse is ok, all fuses are working.
Coil pack shows 12v, have spark (may not be strong), cut off old connectors to coil pack (looked frayed) and put new ones on. I'm using my latest (bosch) coil pack and old ignition amplifier (which wasn't broke)
Dizzy is showing small shavings of metal presumably from all the cranking,
and.... did the immobiliser bypass which made no difference so wired but as before

result is the same: fuel pump will prime, engine will crank, it tries to fire up but won't, took a video click below.

Just done: pulled the spark plugs (5k old), they looked wet and dirty and fuel smell was v. strong removing the plugs (see below).

What I'm thinking: Plugs too wet/carbon build up (clean up), fried ign amplifier, wrong HT/cylinder to dizzy cap hook up (see my post above) and....... what else should I try?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBV_hGBKJvM&fe...

[Chimp871]

good info Ian. When your engine was flooded did it sound like my video?

[Chimp871]

video should be running now, it was private for some reason.

[Chimp871]

Oneball said:

You said there were metal shavings in the dissy cap, that’s not right.

Can you see where they’ve come from? Cap? Rotor arm? Are they shiny silver or graphite? They appear to have come from the cap, shiny silver

Is there side to side play in the dissy shaft? Didn't notice - will check

Is it the right arm and cap? Yes, original lucas

Is the arm on properly? was pushed down firmly - will check

Is the advance mechanism ok? Hard to know as it won't fire. I'd have thought the advance would be a problem on higher revs

In the video it sounds like the timing or mixture is the issue, can you check the timing even just static? With the plugs out, will remove fuel relays and check it. I've not known a dizzy get knocked out of timing but right now my mind is open to anything.

Edited by Oneball on Friday 12th January 19:39

One thing I need t add is that for the last few weeks when starting her up I had to keep the key in crank position as it fluttered into a start. Looking back it must have been building up to the breakdown point which was unusual as it was during driving albeit in stty slow m42 rush hour traffic.

[Chimp871]

FunkyGibbon said:

I had something like this ages ago. It turned out to that the pipe from the air filter to the AFM had come adrift. Might be worth a quick check.

FG

wouldn't that be something if its that. I'd buy myself a dhead hat if it's a collapsed air inlet hose

[Chimp871]

cheers lads, all advice appreciated.

Plugs are out, been cleaned up but will stay out possibly for a couple of weeks due to work. and yes it did smell strongly of fuel.

The dizzy point shavings were my concern and why I stopped work on it. Remember I had no spark the day after being towed home, I only got spark once I changed leads, dizzy cap and rotor arm but like the video. All parts changed are what I owned and had not previously broke.

I'll post pics of the inside of the dizzy cap tomorrow and check arm position and play in shaft.

Don't worry I haven't cranked the st out of her as the battery wouldn't let me.

To answer CC's point below: I set the timing some years ago during camshaft change so once I've got compression I'll check it but car was running smooth before breakdown, it was only the start that was farty, if that makes sense.

Edited by Chimp871 on Friday 12th January 22:45

[Chimp871]

Penelope Stopit said:

Hopefully the OP will post some images up of the metal shavings, distributor cap and rotor arm, the problem is that once parts have been swapped there is always a possibility that other problems have been created, I wonder if the original distributor cap and rotor arm were creating metal shavings

just got back from the autosport show at the NEC, so tomorrow will post up some pics. I'm thinking the shavings may have been from the dud dizzy/rotor arm as there was no spark. More to follow tomorrow.

Dizzy/rotor condition is my priority right now and making sure fuel has evaporated.

To help compression is it recommended to put a drop of oil in each cylinder to create a seal like you do for compression tests?

Edited by Chimp871 on Saturday 13th January 17:45

[Chimp871]

Shavings solved. When I switched dizzy caps I changed HT leads before clipping to distributor.

Turns out there's a locating lug on the cap so before although clipped down it was off axis.

I'm off to South Africa for a couple of weeks so will then take a look when i get back.

[Chimp871]

No. Out of time. But plugs cleaned and ready to spark test.

I assume the dizzy cap contacts must be setup for the offset the contact lug gives. So if you mount it 180 degrees out (which is whar I did) it wouldn't work?

[Chimp871]

I don't believe so as I'm using the bible config.

When I get round to starting if it doesn't work then I'll go through tdc check. But I'm not thinking that route.

[Chimp871]

update after a couple of weeks away. Still not running

Put back old coil pack, amp module & magnacor leads, cleaned plugs, dizzy cap and rotor arm are from used pile (all working before switching) and installed cap the RIGHT way this time. Cleaned earth points on amp module clamp.

Checked for spark on each HT lead separately and I have to say they all look weak to my eye, orange in colour.

Checked fuel pressure at rail and it's 35-40 psi after priming.

Oil pressure starts on turnover is 20-30 psi which I know is lower than normal, but gauge may not 100% accurate.

On turnover with fully charged battery it turns fast enough, tries to catch but sounds farty like the video I posted before.

options (in order):
charge spare battery in garage and put 2 battery's to help cranking
Check spark plug gap/change plugs to old ones
Check compression ratio
add oil to cylinder to help seal to create compression (doesn't fuel do this to?0
Worst case: bad ecu or throw in towel and send to garage. <<< I don't want to do this, it's not why I bought the car....

Any other areas to check?

[Chimp871]

I can bypass the immobiliser as I've done the mod. I'm about to turnover, check plugs, add a few drops of oil and then get a tow down the drive.

I'll do one way with immobiliser as is and the other bypassed, but in theory I shouldn't get a spark if the immobiliser isn't working? It's either on or off

[Chimp871]

QBee said:

Would it help if i posted (or dropped in) my coil and ignition amp that ran my car perfectly until I went Emerald 12 months ago? If you have wet plugs, I still suspect the pre-distributor part the ignition system.

I think I came by a couple of years ago with plug extenders? The post will be the quickest and cheapest way of getting those parts to you, but I am coming down to Cwmbran next Sunday. I can also bring jump leads and a booster pack if you suspect the battery. And my battery charger/conditioner. And all my other ignition spares.

yes I was the plug extender man near Hereford...

Thanks for the offer, but I can't believe 2 coil packs and 2 amp modules are fried. The new ones are <12 months.