Discussion
Getting a bit confused on this one.
Disarm immobiliser
Turn key
Fuel pump primes
Gauges work.
Car cranks
No spark
No fuel.
I've got fuel up to the rail on priming and on return, but after constant cranking plugs remain dry.
I've tried a second coil and ignition amp
I've got 12v to coil.
No spark at HT
No spark at King lead
Won't start on easy start either
I've got a spare pump, but it's priming, and I'm getting fuel to the rail, so I am discounting that.
Immobiliser I can discount as well, from reading I have fuel pump priming, and my fuel gauge works.
That I guess leaves relays? As far as I can gather the ecu/alarm requires both fuel and spark for both to work? I've got a spare injector which is a known refurbished item, so I can probably connect that to the engine loom and put it in some petrol or yurps to see if it pumps, but the plugs on both sides remaining dry after cranking, tells me that whilst fuel is at rail, there is no signal to open the injectors.
Disarm immobiliser
Turn key
Fuel pump primes
Gauges work.
Car cranks
No spark
No fuel.
I've got fuel up to the rail on priming and on return, but after constant cranking plugs remain dry.
I've tried a second coil and ignition amp
I've got 12v to coil.
No spark at HT
No spark at King lead
Won't start on easy start either
I've got a spare pump, but it's priming, and I'm getting fuel to the rail, so I am discounting that.
Immobiliser I can discount as well, from reading I have fuel pump priming, and my fuel gauge works.
That I guess leaves relays? As far as I can gather the ecu/alarm requires both fuel and spark for both to work? I've got a spare injector which is a known refurbished item, so I can probably connect that to the engine loom and put it in some petrol or yurps to see if it pumps, but the plugs on both sides remaining dry after cranking, tells me that whilst fuel is at rail, there is no signal to open the injectors.
QBee said:
I have had a similar happen when the car stalled on me.....in the middle lane of three at a busy dual carriageway roundabout.
On that occasion locking and unlocking the car solved the issue, as it reset/unset the immobiliser.
It does sound like the ignition/injectors side of the immobiliser is still set.
One other top of the head suggestion - you could try re-setting the ECU by simply unplugging it and then connecting it again after a few seconds.
Very early car so no fob, just the touch key and central locking on key.On that occasion locking and unlocking the car solved the issue, as it reset/unset the immobiliser.
It does sound like the ignition/injectors side of the immobiliser is still set.
One other top of the head suggestion - you could try re-setting the ECU by simply unplugging it and then connecting it again after a few seconds.
I will give the ECU a pull now and see what happens, and get onto the chap who fixes the alarms.
Well battery has died, and it is chucking it down, so I guess I will have a look at it tomorrow.
Injector I have a spare one so I can just plug it in and see what it does when being cranked, I also have spark plug test light things as well, if the ECU reset doesn't work, is there an immobiliser bypass? Just so I can figure out what it is and get the unit replaced or repaired.
Injector I have a spare one so I can just plug it in and see what it does when being cranked, I also have spark plug test light things as well, if the ECU reset doesn't work, is there an immobiliser bypass? Just so I can figure out what it is and get the unit replaced or repaired.
Break in the weather.
Pretty convinced it is now alarm or immobiliser.
Pulled return feed from fuel rail, initial prime came through, cranked and nothing so no fuel pump, obviously fuel pump isn't dead because it is priming .
I have a pinout for the old alarm, but I am now wondering if that even still works, so I will get the multi meter out and start doing some checks on if I am getting power out, If I had the proper know how I would just pull the whole alarm system out and the Meta and just start again with a new unit..
Pretty convinced it is now alarm or immobiliser.
Pulled return feed from fuel rail, initial prime came through, cranked and nothing so no fuel pump, obviously fuel pump isn't dead because it is priming .
I have a pinout for the old alarm, but I am now wondering if that even still works, so I will get the multi meter out and start doing some checks on if I am getting power out, If I had the proper know how I would just pull the whole alarm system out and the Meta and just start again with a new unit..
Steve_D said:
If the immobiliser was the issue the pump would not prime.
During crank the ECU is looking for the pulse from Coil negative/ignition amp if you have confirmed you have spark then you are looking for the whit/blue wire that goes from the coil to the ECU.
Until the ECU sees this pulse it will not switch the pump back on.
The wire goes across the front of the engine, behind the dizzy, behind the injectors on the nearside then there is a connector (single pin) which is often cable tied under the air inlet hose. From there it goes through into the footwell. In the footwell loom it goes to the ECU. Somewhere in the line is a 6.8K ohm resistor but I can't at the moment remember where it is located.
I'm pretty confident this is not immobiliser.
Steve
Confirmed no spark, I have those see through leads and confirmed no spark.During crank the ECU is looking for the pulse from Coil negative/ignition amp if you have confirmed you have spark then you are looking for the whit/blue wire that goes from the coil to the ECU.
Until the ECU sees this pulse it will not switch the pump back on.
The wire goes across the front of the engine, behind the dizzy, behind the injectors on the nearside then there is a connector (single pin) which is often cable tied under the air inlet hose. From there it goes through into the footwell. In the footwell loom it goes to the ECU. Somewhere in the line is a 6.8K ohm resistor but I can't at the moment remember where it is located.
I'm pretty confident this is not immobiliser.
Steve
I have had a look at my wiring and there are no white/blue wires.
My coil goes, yellow single, into yellow/white and white/yellow.
Other side of coil goes white/green into a solid white and white/black (it has had some wiring done at the end but the loom is original, at the ignition amp there is no white/blue either.
It's an early car if that helps, I have also dragged all the loom out and fusebox out, I will try another ignition amplifier first as I know I have 12v to both coils that have been tried.
Loubaruch said:
On my car the fuel pump circuit is not immobilised directly: Only two circuits the ignition and cranking are immobilised.
The fuel pump certainly primes irrespective on whether the immobiliser is functioning or not as the command comes from the ECU, no immobilser connections.
If the ignition circuit is faulty and thus no spark then the fuel pump cannot operate and is thus immobilised indirectly as the ECU demands feedback from the ignition circuit to initiate the fuel pump.
On my car the pump will not prime without the touch fob being used.The fuel pump certainly primes irrespective on whether the immobiliser is functioning or not as the command comes from the ECU, no immobilser connections.
If the ignition circuit is faulty and thus no spark then the fuel pump cannot operate and is thus immobilised indirectly as the ECU demands feedback from the ignition circuit to initiate the fuel pump.
Belle427 said:
Id agree that if the pump primes its not the immobiliser.
You also said you had 12 volts at coil positive so to me if the car cranks over ok it can't be immobiliser related.
Sounds to me as if the signal isn't getting back to the Ecu to fire the injectors.
There are some testing methods below.
http://g33.co.uk/pages/technical-ignition-system.h...
That is quite helpful actually, I have just fitted a new ignition amp to rule out the other two older ones and still nothing, I have power to the connector on the amp, so I will try the trigger head test next.You also said you had 12 volts at coil positive so to me if the car cranks over ok it can't be immobiliser related.
Sounds to me as if the signal isn't getting back to the Ecu to fire the injectors.
There are some testing methods below.
http://g33.co.uk/pages/technical-ignition-system.h...
Edited by Belle427 on Saturday 21st May 15:12
Edited by Belle427 on Saturday 21st May 15:15
I have had a search, where can I get a new trigger head? All I can find is the upgrade kits, or is it just a case of a new dizzy?
QBee said:
(I think) I have the distributor that came off my car when I converted to coil packs/Emerald ECU.
I think it is resting somewhere in my mancave until the day someone needs it.
Drop me an email if you do need one and I will have a look for it.
I know the cap was appropriated several years ago by a local Grief owner who was having Griff from his ignition system.
Will let you know on that, I may hit the local club guys up first to see if I can get one locallyI think it is resting somewhere in my mancave until the day someone needs it.
Drop me an email if you do need one and I will have a look for it.
I know the cap was appropriated several years ago by a local Grief owner who was having Griff from his ignition system.
Right, I have done the trigger test.
Original amp nothing
New amp I get spark by shoving a screwdriver between it and fuel pump primes, 3 pin stock item for a Land Rover.
I then adjusted the gap and have nothing (closer) so I am going to set it back to stock now, but it was consistently firing on the test.
Crank on key though and no spark though.
Adjusted back to stock 15thou and nothing, completely dead, so I have just ordered a new trigger head, will give that a try, and will mean it has new amp and trigger head, and if that doesn't work, I am stumped.
For anyone that may need this later in life the part number is as it took me ages to find calling it a trigger head.
Rover V8 35dlm8 distributor trigger head Magnetic sensor RTC5090
For anyone that may need this later in life the part number is as it took me ages to find calling it a trigger head.
Rover V8 35dlm8 distributor trigger head Magnetic sensor RTC5090
Well I don't know
New amp
New trigger head
12v at coil
12v at ignition amp
Can't get the new trigger head to work on test
Can't get old trigger head to work on test
Voltage is dropping it 7-8V at coil on crank
Not sure what there is left to try, I haven't got the metal relay for the fuel pumps(?)
Try a Powerspark dizzy?
New amp
New trigger head
12v at coil
12v at ignition amp
Can't get the new trigger head to work on test
Can't get old trigger head to work on test
Voltage is dropping it 7-8V at coil on crank
Not sure what there is left to try, I haven't got the metal relay for the fuel pumps(?)
Try a Powerspark dizzy?
Belle427 said:
Voltage seems low at coil, maybe try a direct battery feed to it briefly for test purposes.
Going to have a look at it tomorrow, just fitted another brand new Bosch coil, voltage still dropping to 7v on crank, can't get trigger to provide spark, what else is left? Everything in the line is brand new, coil, ignition amp, trigger head, all new, leads are 12 months old, as is cap and rotor, I have got a new ingition amp plug to go on next, will de-pin and fit that, but I have 12v to the plug, and voltage out of ignition amp with ignition on.
Been through and tested it all, I am now satisfied that everything new works, I can consistently get spark and fuel pump goes every single time.
Turn the key, nothing, no spark no fuel.
Take king lead off and test on key, it sparks once on first turn, then nothing, no spark anymore.
What am I missing, what's the difference between me rotating engine by hand and activating the ECU signal, and the key not doing it? Or doing it once
Turn the key, nothing, no spark no fuel.
Take king lead off and test on key, it sparks once on first turn, then nothing, no spark anymore.
What am I missing, what's the difference between me rotating engine by hand and activating the ECU signal, and the key not doing it? Or doing it once
Well I've got it to start, but it hasn't helped really.
For the 90th time I removed dizzy, stripped it, reset and rebuilt it all again, with new trigger, checked static time, refitted, and now it works, but it looks like I've knocked the timing whilst tightening the dizzy as with stepper it runs like a bag of s
t, and without unplugged the timing is way off and the idle is 2k, so retime tomorrow.
If this fails again I'm getting new dizzy
For the 90th time I removed dizzy, stripped it, reset and rebuilt it all again, with new trigger, checked static time, refitted, and now it works, but it looks like I've knocked the timing whilst tightening the dizzy as with stepper it runs like a bag of s
t, and without unplugged the timing is way off and the idle is 2k, so retime tomorrow.If this fails again I'm getting new dizzy
Solved, eventually, replaced the ignition amp again and back to square one, got a bit pissed off with it so pulled the dizzy out to have a look at it all again and whilst sat on the bench, I started spinning the rotor arm with my finger and noticed between 3-7 oclock, or between 7 and 8 on the rotation there was a physical notchiness to the dizzy, as it was rotating it and getting to number seven the coil was firing "too early" then after 8 it was firing just on time, 4 cylinders firing retarded, 4 firing on time, so advancing or retarding the timing was not going to make any difference to the time as it was always going to be out and playing catch up.
I remedied this by putting in the Powerspark dizzy ( i am saving for body off this year, standalone and expensive parts are not high priority) the quality seems good, I did have to knock a few bits of metal off the two bottom pins on the shaft, didn't want them floating around engine bay, worth checking if you every buy.
Slotted right in, exactly where the Lucas unit was, the rear clip was an arse to get on as new sprung steel is sprung, fired the car up and it runs lovely, set a basic timing as I plan on getting it on rolling road with gas analyser to get it set properly, but apparently it has been broken since day one, and what ever originally broke was the proverbial straw on the camels back, no more stutter, no more shunting, no more crappy starting in the cold, it now pulls better in every gear and revs out smoother.
All in all very happy with the Powerspark distributor the Chimaera
I remedied this by putting in the Powerspark dizzy ( i am saving for body off this year, standalone and expensive parts are not high priority) the quality seems good, I did have to knock a few bits of metal off the two bottom pins on the shaft, didn't want them floating around engine bay, worth checking if you every buy.
Slotted right in, exactly where the Lucas unit was, the rear clip was an arse to get on as new sprung steel is sprung, fired the car up and it runs lovely, set a basic timing as I plan on getting it on rolling road with gas analyser to get it set properly, but apparently it has been broken since day one, and what ever originally broke was the proverbial straw on the camels back, no more stutter, no more shunting, no more crappy starting in the cold, it now pulls better in every gear and revs out smoother.
All in all very happy with the Powerspark distributor the Chimaera
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