Griffith intermittent misfire/conking out - what could it be
Discussion
I've had my 92 Griff 4.0 Litre for 24 years. It's suffered from an intermittent but annoying problem which nobody has managed to get to the bottom of but it very much spoils my enjoyment of the car nowadays.
An auto electrician a few years ago thought he had got to the bottom of it when he doubled up a wire he couldn't replace which if memory serves went between the ignition timing unit and the ECU I think. The issue did seem to happen less after that - or so I thought! Last night I went out for a drive with my daughter around some back lanes and on the narrow single track road going up a steep hill hit a smallish stone underneath the car just left of center. Instantly the engine conked out and was accompanied by strong smell of fuel. I tried to start it and no joy. Rolled myself back down the hill to the bottom and tried several times to restart. Sometimes it would start but sounded like it was running on only 3 cylinders or something and it would eventually die whether you revved it or not. All the time this was accompanied by strong petrol smell. It's exactly what it used to do years ago and is a problem I hoped had been cured (I haven't used it much in recent years).
Fernhurst tried unsuccessfully to find the problem and sometimes Graham used to take the car for a week and it would run fine for him everyday back and forth to work!!
The problem is with a problem like this I am very reluctant to take the car anywhere really or enjoy it as I just don't trust it. Last night I was lucky and a local good samaritan towed me in his Range Rover back home. Car is sitting outside my house again now and I bet if I go to try and start it this morning it will start immediately and give all impressions of being normal!!
I'm baffled and frustrated and just keen to get to the bottom of it. The suspicion from Fernhurst was that it was undoubtedly electrical but I had the distributor etc all changed and it's had new Magnecor HT leads too! I spent a flipping fortune having it resprayed, new fuel lines, new brake lines, new outriggers etc about 4 years ago and it's not been used much since.
I'd welcome any thoughts from the community as to what it might be. The problem used to happen going over bumps, level crossing etc and that's why I mentioned something has obviously been jolted by the small stone last night - probably a wire. But what wires run down the left center of the car underneath? I suspect the engine used to get flooded by the miss-fire and not all the fuel being ignited hence the strong fuel smell. Sometimes you could restart it 5-10 mins later but last night no joy.
Also fixing this is beyond me so if anybody has any good auto electrical recommendations in the South East Guildford/Petersfield/Portsmouth area that would be good!
Saxon
An auto electrician a few years ago thought he had got to the bottom of it when he doubled up a wire he couldn't replace which if memory serves went between the ignition timing unit and the ECU I think. The issue did seem to happen less after that - or so I thought! Last night I went out for a drive with my daughter around some back lanes and on the narrow single track road going up a steep hill hit a smallish stone underneath the car just left of center. Instantly the engine conked out and was accompanied by strong smell of fuel. I tried to start it and no joy. Rolled myself back down the hill to the bottom and tried several times to restart. Sometimes it would start but sounded like it was running on only 3 cylinders or something and it would eventually die whether you revved it or not. All the time this was accompanied by strong petrol smell. It's exactly what it used to do years ago and is a problem I hoped had been cured (I haven't used it much in recent years).
Fernhurst tried unsuccessfully to find the problem and sometimes Graham used to take the car for a week and it would run fine for him everyday back and forth to work!!
The problem is with a problem like this I am very reluctant to take the car anywhere really or enjoy it as I just don't trust it. Last night I was lucky and a local good samaritan towed me in his Range Rover back home. Car is sitting outside my house again now and I bet if I go to try and start it this morning it will start immediately and give all impressions of being normal!!
I'm baffled and frustrated and just keen to get to the bottom of it. The suspicion from Fernhurst was that it was undoubtedly electrical but I had the distributor etc all changed and it's had new Magnecor HT leads too! I spent a flipping fortune having it resprayed, new fuel lines, new brake lines, new outriggers etc about 4 years ago and it's not been used much since.
I'd welcome any thoughts from the community as to what it might be. The problem used to happen going over bumps, level crossing etc and that's why I mentioned something has obviously been jolted by the small stone last night - probably a wire. But what wires run down the left center of the car underneath? I suspect the engine used to get flooded by the miss-fire and not all the fuel being ignited hence the strong fuel smell. Sometimes you could restart it 5-10 mins later but last night no joy.
Also fixing this is beyond me so if anybody has any good auto electrical recommendations in the South East Guildford/Petersfield/Portsmouth area that would be good!
Saxon
Some great replies here already and I am very grateful - the bulb suggestion is an interesting one actually.
I'm trying to decide whether to contact:
1. Local TVR specialist APM Automotive
2. Local Auto electrician Petersfield Auto Electrics
The plus side of APM Automotive is they know TVR's but the downside is he's probably not an electrical expert. The reverse is true of the auto electrical place.
The good news is that I've just been out to start the car and even the following day it's turning over but not starting (which is the first time ever the fault is sustained) I'm hoping this will make it easier to get to the bottom of it. The downside of course is that I now cannot drive the car anywhere so it will need recovery and that's a one shot operation.
Any thoughts on whether to go the TVR specialist route or the auto-electrician route gratefully received.
Saxon
I'm trying to decide whether to contact:
1. Local TVR specialist APM Automotive
2. Local Auto electrician Petersfield Auto Electrics
The plus side of APM Automotive is they know TVR's but the downside is he's probably not an electrical expert. The reverse is true of the auto electrical place.
The good news is that I've just been out to start the car and even the following day it's turning over but not starting (which is the first time ever the fault is sustained) I'm hoping this will make it easier to get to the bottom of it. The downside of course is that I now cannot drive the car anywhere so it will need recovery and that's a one shot operation.
Any thoughts on whether to go the TVR specialist route or the auto-electrician route gratefully received.
Saxon
Hoover,
Your solution is tempting indeed - I presume you mean this unit: http://www.powersperformance.co.uk/store/slug/elec... at £2500. The cost is very offputting right now because I'm currently on 50% pay at work and the firm are making redundancies in volume due Covid (airline). Otherwise if it's a guaranteed fix for an engine ignition fault (which presumably it is because I imagine it replaces everything that could affect the system) I would probably just wop it on a 0% credit card in a last ditch attempt to make the car usable. This is one of the main reasons I haven't used the car much in years - as you say it just is no fun knowing that on any longish run you will break down and indeed it's misfired on the outside lane of the M4 which isn't a place you want to be! I find as I get older my nerve for dealing with such things is diminishing anyway and I end up taking the Toyota GT86 instead. I spent over £11000 on the car getting it put back on the road just over 3 years ago including outriggers and respray and probably should have got rid before that - isn't hindsight a wonderful thing!! It still needs a complete retrim (around £4000) and now potentially a new ignition system (£2500) so I will have spent £17500 on a precat Griff in the past 4 years and if I tried to sell it tomorrow I would probably struggle to get £17500 back. I see Fermies are selling a nice precat for £28000 and at that level I could be very tempted to sort the car and then get rid. I used to think I would never part with it but find myself increasingly asking if I need this hassle in my life for the relatively small amount of pleasure it gives. The GT86 by comparison is flawlessly reliable and returns pleasure in spades and frankly is almost as good to look at and better if less raw to drive!
I will check if the fuel pump is priming but I'm pretty sure it is - I think it had a new fuel pump 3.5 years ago, I'm pretty sure APM replaced everything else apart from the ashtray judging by the bill!
Saxon
Your solution is tempting indeed - I presume you mean this unit: http://www.powersperformance.co.uk/store/slug/elec... at £2500. The cost is very offputting right now because I'm currently on 50% pay at work and the firm are making redundancies in volume due Covid (airline). Otherwise if it's a guaranteed fix for an engine ignition fault (which presumably it is because I imagine it replaces everything that could affect the system) I would probably just wop it on a 0% credit card in a last ditch attempt to make the car usable. This is one of the main reasons I haven't used the car much in years - as you say it just is no fun knowing that on any longish run you will break down and indeed it's misfired on the outside lane of the M4 which isn't a place you want to be! I find as I get older my nerve for dealing with such things is diminishing anyway and I end up taking the Toyota GT86 instead. I spent over £11000 on the car getting it put back on the road just over 3 years ago including outriggers and respray and probably should have got rid before that - isn't hindsight a wonderful thing!! It still needs a complete retrim (around £4000) and now potentially a new ignition system (£2500) so I will have spent £17500 on a precat Griff in the past 4 years and if I tried to sell it tomorrow I would probably struggle to get £17500 back. I see Fermies are selling a nice precat for £28000 and at that level I could be very tempted to sort the car and then get rid. I used to think I would never part with it but find myself increasingly asking if I need this hassle in my life for the relatively small amount of pleasure it gives. The GT86 by comparison is flawlessly reliable and returns pleasure in spades and frankly is almost as good to look at and better if less raw to drive!
I will check if the fuel pump is priming but I'm pretty sure it is - I think it had a new fuel pump 3.5 years ago, I'm pretty sure APM replaced everything else apart from the ashtray judging by the bill!
Saxon
Just an update for those interested! Managed to get a very good ex TVR main agent mechanic out to the house and he may have found the problem.
Waggling the scart like connector that goes into the MAF set the car off on its mis-fire again and perfectly replicated the symptoms it has had for years. Some cleaning up and re-alignment of the pins to secure the connection seems to have done the trick. He also replaced the fuel pump and ECU relays which were rusty and getting quite hot indicating excessive resistance - he suggested those relays are notoriously unreliable and a very likely culprit in many instances of rough running. He was very surprised to find mine looked like original old style ones fitted back in 1992!! He was puzzled why previous dealers hadn't changed these when trying to sort the issue.
Fuel pump had also taken a knock from the stone I hit earlier in the week so he cleaned up the terminal and reattached the wiring to the fuel pump. Also spotted a hesitation that the car exhibited when accelerating hard and seems to have tuned that out. Minor oil leak from sump plug sorted by tightening up - it was a bit loose.
I'm genuinely excited by the prospect that he may have finally got to the bottom of my Griff problems and at minimal cost. I need to drive the car around a bit now to check if the problem is indeed resolved but a quick wine run this evening to the local co-op confirmed the car now running well. He was I think genuinely impressed with the chassis condition and engine. Meanwhile I found myself marvelling at how much I genuinely love this car and have done for 24 years! I hope the neighbours enjoyed the soundtrack of a well revved precat this afternoon as he was tuning!
Lots of niggly bits still to sort from intermittent wipers not working, heater controls and fan blower not working and an electric wing mirror not working but the main thing is that the car is back on the road and rumbling again! Then there's the big issue of a full retrim being required which is likely to require a loan when I'm a bit more certain of my job security!
Saxon
Waggling the scart like connector that goes into the MAF set the car off on its mis-fire again and perfectly replicated the symptoms it has had for years. Some cleaning up and re-alignment of the pins to secure the connection seems to have done the trick. He also replaced the fuel pump and ECU relays which were rusty and getting quite hot indicating excessive resistance - he suggested those relays are notoriously unreliable and a very likely culprit in many instances of rough running. He was very surprised to find mine looked like original old style ones fitted back in 1992!! He was puzzled why previous dealers hadn't changed these when trying to sort the issue.
Fuel pump had also taken a knock from the stone I hit earlier in the week so he cleaned up the terminal and reattached the wiring to the fuel pump. Also spotted a hesitation that the car exhibited when accelerating hard and seems to have tuned that out. Minor oil leak from sump plug sorted by tightening up - it was a bit loose.
I'm genuinely excited by the prospect that he may have finally got to the bottom of my Griff problems and at minimal cost. I need to drive the car around a bit now to check if the problem is indeed resolved but a quick wine run this evening to the local co-op confirmed the car now running well. He was I think genuinely impressed with the chassis condition and engine. Meanwhile I found myself marvelling at how much I genuinely love this car and have done for 24 years! I hope the neighbours enjoyed the soundtrack of a well revved precat this afternoon as he was tuning!
Lots of niggly bits still to sort from intermittent wipers not working, heater controls and fan blower not working and an electric wing mirror not working but the main thing is that the car is back on the road and rumbling again! Then there's the big issue of a full retrim being required which is likely to require a loan when I'm a bit more certain of my job security!
Saxon
Penelope,
Yes thanks for the well wishes and thanks for your suggestions earlier. I have to say that having had him give it the once over so intelligently and knowledgeably where he found some very obvious electrical weaknesses in minutes does beg the question what the other two TVR garages who have maintained the car at vast cost in the 24 years I have owned it were doing with their time and my money...
They were repeatedly consulted on this very issue and despite some large bills and sometimes keeping the car for a whole week at a time were seemingly incapable of changing two cheap relays or spotting the MAF unit connection being wobbly. As he said to me if there's a strong smell of petrol everytime it does it (which I detailed extensively to every garage who looked at it) then logically it isn't related to issues with fuel delivery or the fuel pump for example, it's far more likely to be fuel/air mix related - and that immediately leads you to suspect MAF unit or ECU. Before replacing either of those the first thing to do is to check the connections to them - bingo he replicated the problem on demand with the MAF unit.
I only posted this really so that in future years somebody with a RV8 TVR with similar problems may find this thread and be pointed in the right direction. Lets just hope that this really is the end of a problem that had deterred me from enjoying my car for over 10 years now. It's a shame to have lost so many good years with it I could have enjoyed - basically my entire 40's, but I had pretty much reached the end of my tether and my finances to throw at it and got sick of breaking down and not feeling like there was even a 50% chance of being able to make a destination even 50 miles away.
Already thinking in terms of visiting a friend in Bristol 80 miles away and skirting into the Brecon Beacons for a bit of a tour. Once confidence is that high then I would dearly love to drive it in Ireland with my wife. It went over there with us for our wedding in 2000 (and broke down on my wedding day with a busted alternator) so on our 20 year anniversary I would dearly love to take it back over there to finally drive my wife away from the Church in it and back to the hotel we stayed in for dinner... At least one of us is as svelte and shapely as we all were in July 2000 (and it isn't me or the missus!)
Saxon
Yes thanks for the well wishes and thanks for your suggestions earlier. I have to say that having had him give it the once over so intelligently and knowledgeably where he found some very obvious electrical weaknesses in minutes does beg the question what the other two TVR garages who have maintained the car at vast cost in the 24 years I have owned it were doing with their time and my money...
They were repeatedly consulted on this very issue and despite some large bills and sometimes keeping the car for a whole week at a time were seemingly incapable of changing two cheap relays or spotting the MAF unit connection being wobbly. As he said to me if there's a strong smell of petrol everytime it does it (which I detailed extensively to every garage who looked at it) then logically it isn't related to issues with fuel delivery or the fuel pump for example, it's far more likely to be fuel/air mix related - and that immediately leads you to suspect MAF unit or ECU. Before replacing either of those the first thing to do is to check the connections to them - bingo he replicated the problem on demand with the MAF unit.
I only posted this really so that in future years somebody with a RV8 TVR with similar problems may find this thread and be pointed in the right direction. Lets just hope that this really is the end of a problem that had deterred me from enjoying my car for over 10 years now. It's a shame to have lost so many good years with it I could have enjoyed - basically my entire 40's, but I had pretty much reached the end of my tether and my finances to throw at it and got sick of breaking down and not feeling like there was even a 50% chance of being able to make a destination even 50 miles away.
Already thinking in terms of visiting a friend in Bristol 80 miles away and skirting into the Brecon Beacons for a bit of a tour. Once confidence is that high then I would dearly love to drive it in Ireland with my wife. It went over there with us for our wedding in 2000 (and broke down on my wedding day with a busted alternator) so on our 20 year anniversary I would dearly love to take it back over there to finally drive my wife away from the Church in it and back to the hotel we stayed in for dinner... At least one of us is as svelte and shapely as we all were in July 2000 (and it isn't me or the missus!)
Saxon
Oldred V8S
Many thanks for your good wishes. Well good news - just been for a 40-50 mile drive and she hasn't missed a beat and is running like a dream - looks like my mechanic has finally achieved what I thought was almost impossible and sorted problems that Fernhurst, APM Automotive and another non-TVR garage never could. I'm absolutely grinning my head off right now at the thought of having a Summer of fun in my beloved Griff!!
What an absolutely epic car it is to drive!
Saxon
Many thanks for your good wishes. Well good news - just been for a 40-50 mile drive and she hasn't missed a beat and is running like a dream - looks like my mechanic has finally achieved what I thought was almost impossible and sorted problems that Fernhurst, APM Automotive and another non-TVR garage never could. I'm absolutely grinning my head off right now at the thought of having a Summer of fun in my beloved Griff!!
What an absolutely epic car it is to drive!
Saxon
Thanks guys!! Really fab support on this group and I really hope my experience documented here helps somebody in the future avoid what I suffered which was having a pretty much unusable car for 10 years!! I'm still flabbergasted my newly discovered TVR engineer found it in 10 minutes!!
As for putting some miles on it I have been using it for everything these past few days - local runs, dropping teenage daughter off, shopping, some spirited country driving just for the hell of it but soon I plan to drive it back to it's birthplace in Blackpool for a retrim at D&C trim.
I've been longing to have it retrimmed for about 10 years but haven't been able to afford it. My 82 year old Mum who heard my beloved car was now trustworthy again and rumbling has stepped in and offered £3000 towards it. I haven't taken anything off her since 1991 when I was a student so it feels a bit weird but also really exciting!! I haven't ever been back to the factory in it although I have been there to a back home event in our old Landy around 2003 because we were camping in the Lake District at the same time that year.
I can't wait to drive it along the golden mile to the strains of 'Bittersweet Symphony' - it's going to be quite a moment!!
I have loved this car more than any single material possession for 24 years and hung on to it through some pretty barren financial struggles simply because I couldn't bear to part with it. Quite simply it made every single journey memorable, it took me on voyages of discovery to ancient forests, castles, coastlines and pubs and it was a cornerstone of my wife and my early years dating and getting to know each other. Some of our best days together ever involved this car as we set out on another adventure and now we are looking forward to doing so again. One thing that I always loved about the Griff is the fact that it is a supercar for people like me who aren't wealthy but are absolutely working class. It's blue jeans and terraced streets, backstreets and northern soul. The fact it was handbuilt in a 'ramshackle collection of sheds' in a Northern seaside town around the coast from my hometown only adds to its appeal.
That probably explains why my favourite picture ever of a Griffith is this one - it looks the same colour as mine but it really speaks to me about the struggles to achieve something so achingly beautiful. It's like the stunningly beautiful first love you can't believe you once dated and never can forget...
Does anybody know who took that picture and how I might go about getting a poster of it? It also features in Roger Shackleton's book on the Griffith.
Saxon
As for putting some miles on it I have been using it for everything these past few days - local runs, dropping teenage daughter off, shopping, some spirited country driving just for the hell of it but soon I plan to drive it back to it's birthplace in Blackpool for a retrim at D&C trim.
I've been longing to have it retrimmed for about 10 years but haven't been able to afford it. My 82 year old Mum who heard my beloved car was now trustworthy again and rumbling has stepped in and offered £3000 towards it. I haven't taken anything off her since 1991 when I was a student so it feels a bit weird but also really exciting!! I haven't ever been back to the factory in it although I have been there to a back home event in our old Landy around 2003 because we were camping in the Lake District at the same time that year.
I can't wait to drive it along the golden mile to the strains of 'Bittersweet Symphony' - it's going to be quite a moment!!
I have loved this car more than any single material possession for 24 years and hung on to it through some pretty barren financial struggles simply because I couldn't bear to part with it. Quite simply it made every single journey memorable, it took me on voyages of discovery to ancient forests, castles, coastlines and pubs and it was a cornerstone of my wife and my early years dating and getting to know each other. Some of our best days together ever involved this car as we set out on another adventure and now we are looking forward to doing so again. One thing that I always loved about the Griff is the fact that it is a supercar for people like me who aren't wealthy but are absolutely working class. It's blue jeans and terraced streets, backstreets and northern soul. The fact it was handbuilt in a 'ramshackle collection of sheds' in a Northern seaside town around the coast from my hometown only adds to its appeal.
That probably explains why my favourite picture ever of a Griffith is this one - it looks the same colour as mine but it really speaks to me about the struggles to achieve something so achingly beautiful. It's like the stunningly beautiful first love you can't believe you once dated and never can forget...
Does anybody know who took that picture and how I might go about getting a poster of it? It also features in Roger Shackleton's book on the Griffith.
Saxon
Edited by saxon on Thursday 28th May 08:37
Blitzracing,
Interesting but one would have hoped then that both Fernhurst TVR and APM Automotive would have had suitable fault code readers and employed them to diagnose the problem rather than me having to suffer 10 years of not being able to enjoy the car! The car went back and forth to Fernhurst over several years as I tried to get top the bottom of it and I paid some very large invoices there during the 24 years I used them for servicing. Very friendly and helpful people but one has to question their engineering.
Anyway happily it's all fixed now thanks to finding a really good automotive engineer who intelligently diagnosed and resolved the issue. He didn't need to emply a fault code reader actually but found it by deduction and moving things around pretty obvious the engine instantly hiccuped when he moved that MAF cable.
Saxon
Interesting but one would have hoped then that both Fernhurst TVR and APM Automotive would have had suitable fault code readers and employed them to diagnose the problem rather than me having to suffer 10 years of not being able to enjoy the car! The car went back and forth to Fernhurst over several years as I tried to get top the bottom of it and I paid some very large invoices there during the 24 years I used them for servicing. Very friendly and helpful people but one has to question their engineering.
Anyway happily it's all fixed now thanks to finding a really good automotive engineer who intelligently diagnosed and resolved the issue. He didn't need to emply a fault code reader actually but found it by deduction and moving things around pretty obvious the engine instantly hiccuped when he moved that MAF cable.
Saxon
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