Cerbera reliability beyond a joke
Discussion
Speaking for those of us who are longer term owners of the Cerbera, its time to blow the lid off of it's appalling reliability.
I have a 98 4.5 Cerbera which I have owned from new and is now at 24,400 miles.It's in for its 24,000 service at the moment and I can swallow the combined £1340 bill for the service and valve gap setting but the following additional items that need fixing should be a cautionary tale to prospective owners or low mileage owners.
1) Rears mounting studs have pulled out of both carbon fibre airboxes requiring rebonding
2) HT leads are arcing down to earth requiring a new set (if other manufacturers can make them last 10 years why not TVR)
3)Upper wishbone bushes on both sides require replacement (only done 4000 miles ago for goodness sake)
4)Gearbox mountings cracked
5)Starter motor constantly jamming requiring replacement (insist on a recon. I did and the dealer, under pressure, finally admitted to their existence at £150 versus £400 for a new one.)
6) N/s catalytic converter breaking up requiring replacement (it's unmarked so it's not impact damage or grounding - just a crap quality cat!!
7) Top and bottom diff mounting bushes shot causing severe knocking (again these were replaced only 4000 miles ago!!)
8)All 4 driveshaft CV gaiters perished and split.(the ones on my 120,000 mile 3year old Volvo C70GT are still perfect. Hven't TVR heard of quality modern neoprene)
Total bill for that lot -- £3400 including the service -- HA BLOODY HA!
Just to fill in the picture, paint is coming off the wheels in sheets and TVR couldn't care less. 700 miles ago the solenoid that operates the drivers door had to be replaced (£200) and at the same time the hubs were changed under the safety recall from TVR. These by the way were in a dangerous state.
2000 miles ago saw a replacement battery. Do it yourself, the identical make and model to the factory fit cost me £34 from the local factor. TVR want £100 fitted (what a joke!)
The front discs and pads have been changed 4 times under warranty due to warping and shudder, the last time at 15,000 miles - pretty good considering I don't use the car on track days and most of my miles are on motorways going down to Cornwall. The pads never even have 10% wear on them.AP racing sorted the last lot out and fitted new hub carriers as the tolerances on these are suspect and can cause out of tolerance run out on the whole carrier, hub and disc assembly. (out of interest these carriers appear to originate from a Jeep Cherokee according to AP. Pity the rest of the car is as agricultural.)
Throttle pots were replaced at 18,000 miles and the injection and throttle plates all reset (£450.)
The A/c and hearter control unit burnt out at 13,000 causing lots of smoke in the car (a bit off putting at speed) and due to incompetent fitting by Henley the loom feeding it chaffed and burnt out 1000 miles later.
Cam drive idler gear knocking from cold at 12,000 and reshimmed. (Actually it had been doing it for about 6000 miles but either the dealer was deaf or, as I suspect, TVR are trying like hell to avoid warranty claims as they are snowed under.
Wipers stopped self parking and a new motor fitted under warranty at around 6000 mile but the bloody thing did it again just 2000 miles later - another replacement.
Tacho was replaced at about 6000 as it steadfastly refused to climb above 5500 rpm
The front end was resprayed at 6000 miles due to terrible stone chipping.
Other than that, it has been trouble free.
Why do I stick with it. Well, the depreciation is best described as freefall so my £52,000 asset is now down to around £27,000 making replacement with anything interesting very expensive. It never used to be like that because Griffiths and Chimeras were better built and held together. My Griff500 cost £33,500 new and I sold it 18 months later and 16,000 miles for £31,000. The same story is true of my early 4.2 Cerbera (number 91) before the word got out. But now knowledge of TVR's appalling quality is now fairly widespread and this is driving residuals down. Be warned. The huge problems being experienced with tuscans and speed sixes in gereral is only going to exacerbate the problem.
Any comments from other troubled owners. Are there any genuinely satisfied long term owners out there?
I have a 98 4.5 Cerbera which I have owned from new and is now at 24,400 miles.It's in for its 24,000 service at the moment and I can swallow the combined £1340 bill for the service and valve gap setting but the following additional items that need fixing should be a cautionary tale to prospective owners or low mileage owners.
1) Rears mounting studs have pulled out of both carbon fibre airboxes requiring rebonding
2) HT leads are arcing down to earth requiring a new set (if other manufacturers can make them last 10 years why not TVR)
3)Upper wishbone bushes on both sides require replacement (only done 4000 miles ago for goodness sake)
4)Gearbox mountings cracked
5)Starter motor constantly jamming requiring replacement (insist on a recon. I did and the dealer, under pressure, finally admitted to their existence at £150 versus £400 for a new one.)
6) N/s catalytic converter breaking up requiring replacement (it's unmarked so it's not impact damage or grounding - just a crap quality cat!!
7) Top and bottom diff mounting bushes shot causing severe knocking (again these were replaced only 4000 miles ago!!)
8)All 4 driveshaft CV gaiters perished and split.(the ones on my 120,000 mile 3year old Volvo C70GT are still perfect. Hven't TVR heard of quality modern neoprene)
Total bill for that lot -- £3400 including the service -- HA BLOODY HA!
Just to fill in the picture, paint is coming off the wheels in sheets and TVR couldn't care less. 700 miles ago the solenoid that operates the drivers door had to be replaced (£200) and at the same time the hubs were changed under the safety recall from TVR. These by the way were in a dangerous state.
2000 miles ago saw a replacement battery. Do it yourself, the identical make and model to the factory fit cost me £34 from the local factor. TVR want £100 fitted (what a joke!)
The front discs and pads have been changed 4 times under warranty due to warping and shudder, the last time at 15,000 miles - pretty good considering I don't use the car on track days and most of my miles are on motorways going down to Cornwall. The pads never even have 10% wear on them.AP racing sorted the last lot out and fitted new hub carriers as the tolerances on these are suspect and can cause out of tolerance run out on the whole carrier, hub and disc assembly. (out of interest these carriers appear to originate from a Jeep Cherokee according to AP. Pity the rest of the car is as agricultural.)
Throttle pots were replaced at 18,000 miles and the injection and throttle plates all reset (£450.)
The A/c and hearter control unit burnt out at 13,000 causing lots of smoke in the car (a bit off putting at speed) and due to incompetent fitting by Henley the loom feeding it chaffed and burnt out 1000 miles later.
Cam drive idler gear knocking from cold at 12,000 and reshimmed. (Actually it had been doing it for about 6000 miles but either the dealer was deaf or, as I suspect, TVR are trying like hell to avoid warranty claims as they are snowed under.
Wipers stopped self parking and a new motor fitted under warranty at around 6000 mile but the bloody thing did it again just 2000 miles later - another replacement.
Tacho was replaced at about 6000 as it steadfastly refused to climb above 5500 rpm
The front end was resprayed at 6000 miles due to terrible stone chipping.
Other than that, it has been trouble free.
Why do I stick with it. Well, the depreciation is best described as freefall so my £52,000 asset is now down to around £27,000 making replacement with anything interesting very expensive. It never used to be like that because Griffiths and Chimeras were better built and held together. My Griff500 cost £33,500 new and I sold it 18 months later and 16,000 miles for £31,000. The same story is true of my early 4.2 Cerbera (number 91) before the word got out. But now knowledge of TVR's appalling quality is now fairly widespread and this is driving residuals down. Be warned. The huge problems being experienced with tuscans and speed sixes in gereral is only going to exacerbate the problem.
Any comments from other troubled owners. Are there any genuinely satisfied long term owners out there?
In mitigation, I do have 3 other problems I have neglected to mention, simply because thet haven't cost time and money yet. A slight oil leak from the diff. A slight oil leak from the front gearbox seal inside the bellhousing and a tiny weep of water from the rear of the right hand cylinder head gasket. None seem to be getting any worse over the last 6000 miles so fingers crossed.
I think you have hit on the right solution. The Porsche may not have the emotion or soul of the Cerbera. Nor may it have the ultimate performance but at least it will run on and on and on.I'm thinking of getting another Griff500 - very late one as my son at 6ft doesn't fit the back anymore. Like yours, my Griff was trouble free, went as well as you can practically use in the real world (I grew out of the traffic light grand prix stage by the time I was 12)and apart from scaring me witless whenever it rained, was a hoot to drive.
By the way, deep sympathy for your tales of woe. My 4.2 was a bit like that but luckily I sold it before anyone outside of TVR and the dealer network knew of the problems
I think you have hit on the right solution. The Porsche may not have the emotion or soul of the Cerbera. Nor may it have the ultimate performance but at least it will run on and on and on.I'm thinking of getting another Griff500 - very late one as my son at 6ft doesn't fit the back anymore. Like yours, my Griff was trouble free, went as well as you can practically use in the real world (I grew out of the traffic light grand prix stage by the time I was 12)and apart from scaring me witless whenever it rained, was a hoot to drive.
By the way, deep sympathy for your tales of woe. My 4.2 was a bit like that but luckily I sold it before anyone outside of TVR and the dealer network knew of the problems
Factually (not emotively) one of the best indicators of true whole life cost is to compare fully maintained (including all servicing, repairs, tyres, batteries, etc)leasing costs on say a 3 yr 36,000, 45,000 mile and 60,000 mile contract (i.e 12K 15K or 20K per annum). I have done so when looking at viable alternatives and the results may surprise you.
At 12K/p.a. the Cerbera is on average only slightly cheaper than a 996(non turbo of course) by around 5%
At 15K/p.a it is significantly more than the 996 and at 20K p.a nobody will touch the Cerbera with a barge pole whereas the 996 will be happily quoted at up to 30K miles p.a.. Can we keep discussions on topic and factual rather than emotive. I'm genuinely trying to get some idea of other Cerbera owners experiences, not get into comparisons, heresay or "my willy is bigger than your willy" discussions. Thanks guys and girls.
At 12K/p.a. the Cerbera is on average only slightly cheaper than a 996(non turbo of course) by around 5%
At 15K/p.a it is significantly more than the 996 and at 20K p.a nobody will touch the Cerbera with a barge pole whereas the 996 will be happily quoted at up to 30K miles p.a.. Can we keep discussions on topic and factual rather than emotive. I'm genuinely trying to get some idea of other Cerbera owners experiences, not get into comparisons, heresay or "my willy is bigger than your willy" discussions. Thanks guys and girls.
Roms,
A few of the leasing companies you will find in the ads of the back of CAR, Top Gear, Performance Car and the like usually show non-maintained lease figures for the Chimera. Do what I did a year ago, bash the phone and ask a number of them to prepare maintained and non-maintained quotes for Chimeras, Cerberas etc. They are usually happy to oblige (after they finish laughing).
If my memory serves me well, a fully maintained 4.5 Chimera on a 3+35 20K p.a. business lease contract was around £880/month. A 4.5 Cerbera on 20K was up at around £1400/month. Remember, these are business leases which exclude VAT and require a 3 month lease initial payment
A few of the leasing companies you will find in the ads of the back of CAR, Top Gear, Performance Car and the like usually show non-maintained lease figures for the Chimera. Do what I did a year ago, bash the phone and ask a number of them to prepare maintained and non-maintained quotes for Chimeras, Cerberas etc. They are usually happy to oblige (after they finish laughing).
If my memory serves me well, a fully maintained 4.5 Chimera on a 3+35 20K p.a. business lease contract was around £880/month. A 4.5 Cerbera on 20K was up at around £1400/month. Remember, these are business leases which exclude VAT and require a 3 month lease initial payment
Ben
Thanks for the heads up. Just had a call from the dealer who said they have fixed the diff leak whilst it was out having the bushes replaced (partially blocked diff breather causing overpressure). As to the head water weep, it was there at the 18,000 mile service and they reckon its no worse. I've only had to put in about 1/2 pint of water/antifreeze mix in that time so it's difficult to know what to do. I'm waiting for the dealer to tell me if they are authorised to remove heads nowadays. As the whole of the gubbins on top of the engine is off and the cams out for re-shimming it ought to be relatively painless in wallet terms. Its the gearbox seal I'm most worried about - risk of oil on clutch etc.
Thanks for the heads up. Just had a call from the dealer who said they have fixed the diff leak whilst it was out having the bushes replaced (partially blocked diff breather causing overpressure). As to the head water weep, it was there at the 18,000 mile service and they reckon its no worse. I've only had to put in about 1/2 pint of water/antifreeze mix in that time so it's difficult to know what to do. I'm waiting for the dealer to tell me if they are authorised to remove heads nowadays. As the whole of the gubbins on top of the engine is off and the cams out for re-shimming it ought to be relatively painless in wallet terms. Its the gearbox seal I'm most worried about - risk of oil on clutch etc.
Ben, in response to
QUESTION - WHY IS IT THAT A TVR'S PAINTWORK CAN BE MORE SHAGGED WITH STONECHIPS AFTER 6K MILES THAN A NORMAL CAR AFTER 100K ??
Three reasons:
1) The body is fibreglass which is much more rigid than steel and doesnt transmit or attenuate shock well. Thus, on an impact the entire impact shock is contained within the paint layer rather than dissipated through the steel body like a shock absorber.
2) TVR's paint process is at a low bake temperature compared to major manufacturers and low bake paint systems and resins don't seem to be as tolerant
3)Metallics, pearls, reds and yellows all have less chipping resistance. How many TVR's do you see that are one of the above.
Sorry for all this boring trivia but I used to work (many years ago) as a production manager at Ford and before that I was a paint specialist for them!
Hope that solves the riddle. The answer of course is to either buy a TVR in a boring colour (Allegro muddy brown perhaps?) or fit an american style car "bra" YUK!
QUESTION - WHY IS IT THAT A TVR'S PAINTWORK CAN BE MORE SHAGGED WITH STONECHIPS AFTER 6K MILES THAN A NORMAL CAR AFTER 100K ??
Three reasons:
1) The body is fibreglass which is much more rigid than steel and doesnt transmit or attenuate shock well. Thus, on an impact the entire impact shock is contained within the paint layer rather than dissipated through the steel body like a shock absorber.
2) TVR's paint process is at a low bake temperature compared to major manufacturers and low bake paint systems and resins don't seem to be as tolerant
3)Metallics, pearls, reds and yellows all have less chipping resistance. How many TVR's do you see that are one of the above.
Sorry for all this boring trivia but I used to work (many years ago) as a production manager at Ford and before that I was a paint specialist for them!
Hope that solves the riddle. The answer of course is to either buy a TVR in a boring colour (Allegro muddy brown perhaps?) or fit an american style car "bra" YUK!
Sorry I've been out of the frame for 36 hours but business got in the way. This thread seems to have started something.
An interesting point has been made about dealer reliability. It's certainly bad enough having a fragile car but then componding the situation with incompetent, avaricious or indifferent dealers makes it a nightmare. Naming and shaming is a good idea but be very very careful to keep it totally factual or you will be in court for libel before the ink dries.I have noticed that TVR dealer attitudes generally have taken a downturn progressively over the last 3 years and so too has the factory's willingness to compensate owners for out of warranty faults that really shouldn't occur. This may suggest as has been widely rumoured that the AJP and Speed Six engines are proving to be, for TVR, the straw that broke the camels back and they are struggling to keep up with and pay for the consequential warranty work and costs. This does not look good for the future. The dealer I use most often is Henley and that is simply because they are the nearest. Suffice to say, if there was another within a sensible distance with a good reputation I would probably switch. Brooklands, in Exeter really impressed me once with their help one Christmas Eve when I broke down in my old 4.2 on the M5 just South of Bristol with no oil pressure (jammed open pressure relief valve). AA relay got me there and they dropped everything to fix it on the spot (one and a half hours work)in an already full workshop. The car was only at 4500 miles and at the next service in Henley (6000), as the car was being driven off the ramp to be given back to me, the power steering and oil pressure failed as the drive jackshaft snapped on startup. Result - car back to factory for 6 weeks, no replacement, no sorry, no nothing!
On another matter, I often see comments from people along the lines of "yes but isn't it brillant how a little company like TVR can produce engines of it's own that are so powerful". The answer to that it NO ITS NOT!!! Any competent and skilled team of mechanical engineers given access to a powerful enough design computer and a machine shop can build a powerful engine. As to whether it will start every time, run reliably day in day out, tolerate start stop operation and thermal cycling is an entirely diffent matter. The real skill is to achieve all that and the reality we are all finding out is that TVR do not have the development resources to make it happen. The result is the poor customer becomes the test bed (totally unforgivable on a £10,000 car, let alone a £50,000 one)and the minute warranty runs out - sorry mate its your problem now.
My advice is be prepared to get very pushy with the dealer and the factory. Remember, the warranty does not constitute a legally binding contract on your part. You are protected by sale of goods legislation that demands that you are sold goods and services of merchandisable quality. Now this is a loose term and open to interpretation but there are many instances where clearly you have a case in law. My 4.5 upper wishbone bushes have worn again in just 4000 miles but as the last change was done 7 months ago, the factory and dealer dont really want to know (repairs you will note are only covered for 6 months). Now I may be missing something here but I dont see how time makes these wear out. Nor, according to my solicitor, would a court.
The point I really want to make is that the more people that unreasonably defend TVR (especially those who do not or have never owned one) and the more that make excuses on their behalf, the more the factory & dealers are going to get away with it and give us poor sods short shrift. Think about it!
An interesting point has been made about dealer reliability. It's certainly bad enough having a fragile car but then componding the situation with incompetent, avaricious or indifferent dealers makes it a nightmare. Naming and shaming is a good idea but be very very careful to keep it totally factual or you will be in court for libel before the ink dries.I have noticed that TVR dealer attitudes generally have taken a downturn progressively over the last 3 years and so too has the factory's willingness to compensate owners for out of warranty faults that really shouldn't occur. This may suggest as has been widely rumoured that the AJP and Speed Six engines are proving to be, for TVR, the straw that broke the camels back and they are struggling to keep up with and pay for the consequential warranty work and costs. This does not look good for the future. The dealer I use most often is Henley and that is simply because they are the nearest. Suffice to say, if there was another within a sensible distance with a good reputation I would probably switch. Brooklands, in Exeter really impressed me once with their help one Christmas Eve when I broke down in my old 4.2 on the M5 just South of Bristol with no oil pressure (jammed open pressure relief valve). AA relay got me there and they dropped everything to fix it on the spot (one and a half hours work)in an already full workshop. The car was only at 4500 miles and at the next service in Henley (6000), as the car was being driven off the ramp to be given back to me, the power steering and oil pressure failed as the drive jackshaft snapped on startup. Result - car back to factory for 6 weeks, no replacement, no sorry, no nothing!
On another matter, I often see comments from people along the lines of "yes but isn't it brillant how a little company like TVR can produce engines of it's own that are so powerful". The answer to that it NO ITS NOT!!! Any competent and skilled team of mechanical engineers given access to a powerful enough design computer and a machine shop can build a powerful engine. As to whether it will start every time, run reliably day in day out, tolerate start stop operation and thermal cycling is an entirely diffent matter. The real skill is to achieve all that and the reality we are all finding out is that TVR do not have the development resources to make it happen. The result is the poor customer becomes the test bed (totally unforgivable on a £10,000 car, let alone a £50,000 one)and the minute warranty runs out - sorry mate its your problem now.
My advice is be prepared to get very pushy with the dealer and the factory. Remember, the warranty does not constitute a legally binding contract on your part. You are protected by sale of goods legislation that demands that you are sold goods and services of merchandisable quality. Now this is a loose term and open to interpretation but there are many instances where clearly you have a case in law. My 4.5 upper wishbone bushes have worn again in just 4000 miles but as the last change was done 7 months ago, the factory and dealer dont really want to know (repairs you will note are only covered for 6 months). Now I may be missing something here but I dont see how time makes these wear out. Nor, according to my solicitor, would a court.
The point I really want to make is that the more people that unreasonably defend TVR (especially those who do not or have never owned one) and the more that make excuses on their behalf, the more the factory & dealers are going to get away with it and give us poor sods short shrift. Think about it!
In case of doubt, I should start by saying that I do actually like driving TVR's very very much - I've had 4 for goodness sake. I just hate owning them!! I'm just a glutton for punishment and disillusionment is now setting in after 9 years of ownership.
I see both Flasher and Martin Hunt have had good experiences with Brooklands too. I have often thought about giving them a try based on my good experience described in a previous post. They are only 60 miles from our second home in North Cornwall (yeah I know lucky/flash sod!! and before anyone asks, yes, I have often thought of selling it to finance a Diablo/Vantage/F40/Speed Twelve/etc.)Wife might object though. Anyone else out there with good (or bad) experiences of Brooklands?
p.s Only joking about the Speed Twelve. If they can't get a reasonable volume car right, think what a b***s up they must make of that!!
I see both Flasher and Martin Hunt have had good experiences with Brooklands too. I have often thought about giving them a try based on my good experience described in a previous post. They are only 60 miles from our second home in North Cornwall (yeah I know lucky/flash sod!! and before anyone asks, yes, I have often thought of selling it to finance a Diablo/Vantage/F40/Speed Twelve/etc.)Wife might object though. Anyone else out there with good (or bad) experiences of Brooklands?
p.s Only joking about the Speed Twelve. If they can't get a reasonable volume car right, think what a b***s up they must make of that!!
Latest update - collected car this evening following 24000 service and various maladies and......... it's about the best it's been since new.
No clattering - cams reshimmed
No stuttering - new HT leads
No tinny rattles - new catalyst
No rear end knocking - new axle bushes
No wandering - new wishbone bushes
And what's more goes like it should.
Best news of all, I got a bit firm about the front wishbones suggesting that legal action was on the cards and lo and behold, bushes supplied free and the 2 hours labour knocked off the bill. That plus further niggles over claimed job times - like wanting 2 hours to change the starter when the top of the engine is already off and access is easy, resulted in a reduction from around £3570 to £3218 - a result!! Its still far too much though and I just keep my fingers crossed that the whole plot holds together so the 30000 service is less painful.
Off to Cornwall now for a 200 mile shakedown and the Christmas holidays. Merry Christmas to you all and thanks for the positive e-mails you have sent me. Lets keep the thread going because I believe it's in all our interests to separate fact from fantasy
Cheers
No clattering - cams reshimmed
No stuttering - new HT leads
No tinny rattles - new catalyst
No rear end knocking - new axle bushes
No wandering - new wishbone bushes
And what's more goes like it should.
Best news of all, I got a bit firm about the front wishbones suggesting that legal action was on the cards and lo and behold, bushes supplied free and the 2 hours labour knocked off the bill. That plus further niggles over claimed job times - like wanting 2 hours to change the starter when the top of the engine is already off and access is easy, resulted in a reduction from around £3570 to £3218 - a result!! Its still far too much though and I just keep my fingers crossed that the whole plot holds together so the 30000 service is less painful.
Off to Cornwall now for a 200 mile shakedown and the Christmas holidays. Merry Christmas to you all and thanks for the positive e-mails you have sent me. Lets keep the thread going because I believe it's in all our interests to separate fact from fantasy
Cheers
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