End of a lease - Dilapidation on a building to be demolished
Discussion
The lease on our warehouse is up tomorrow and the landlord is wanting to put together a schedule of dilapidation. Everyone knows the building is going to be knocked down within the next month to make way for student accommodation. The adjoining warehouse was stung with a 12k bill but they settled on 2.5k. I'm in no position to be able to afford to pay that, especially when the building is not in a bad state of repair. The only real bad things I can think of are the gutters haven't been cleaned for a while and the paint from the floor is crumbling in places quite badly so the concrete below is exposed. There is also two metal plates covering a hole where a ventilation shaft exited the building.
Has anyone found themselves in a similar situation and managed to argue out of paying anything the landlord might charge. I've been told that if a building in going to be knocked down then dilapidation can't be charged for? Is this true? Also how do I go about proving that the building is going to be knocked down? Builders have been in to quote on demolition, planning permission has all been passed and most people in the area freely talk about it being knocked down very soon.
I just know what this landlord is like and how they will try their best to bill me for anything extra they can.
Thank you.
Has anyone found themselves in a similar situation and managed to argue out of paying anything the landlord might charge. I've been told that if a building in going to be knocked down then dilapidation can't be charged for? Is this true? Also how do I go about proving that the building is going to be knocked down? Builders have been in to quote on demolition, planning permission has all been passed and most people in the area freely talk about it being knocked down very soon.
I just know what this landlord is like and how they will try their best to bill me for anything extra they can.
Thank you.
I'm due to hand the keys over this afternoon. They have already said that they will carry out an initial schedule of dilapidations before they decide whether to hire an independent specialist. They did the same thing with the adjoining warehouse and tried to bill him huge amounts to do stupid things like paint internal walls. They were always really sketchy about me not moving out at the end of my lease since they want to build on it and have had builders in uoting on demolition for the end of November.
How do you suggest I stall? Should I even hand the keys back today and are they entitled to just cut the padlock from the front off?
Thanks
How do you suggest I stall? Should I even hand the keys back today and are they entitled to just cut the padlock from the front off?
Thanks
I am expecting the landlord to take the piss on dilapidation. I've already been told by one of their employees handling the handover that pending the first viewing they might choose to hire a specialist to draw up a list of dilapidations that they will try and bill me for. I don't think theres much that I can do without them finding something to bill me for. I spoke to a solicitor for some preliminary advice and all they could advise me on was to wait for what they come back with before they can look into it further.
Am I right in thinking that if they did knock it down after a month and I haven't paid them anything then i wouldn't need to pay for anything they tried to bill me for. I'm up against a company with 200 employees, in house solicitors and a director with a reputation for 'screwing people over'.
Would it be ok for me to record the whole handover on my phone in the hope that they admit to it being developed? Is this even legal or would I need to le the other party know they are being recorded.
Thanks
Am I right in thinking that if they did knock it down after a month and I haven't paid them anything then i wouldn't need to pay for anything they tried to bill me for. I'm up against a company with 200 employees, in house solicitors and a director with a reputation for 'screwing people over'.
Would it be ok for me to record the whole handover on my phone in the hope that they admit to it being developed? Is this even legal or would I need to le the other party know they are being recorded.
Thanks
Just an update. A preliminary schedule of dilapidations has been itemised and emailed over. In total it lists the cost of work to be 25k but they will settle for half that for a quick settlement before a formal schedule of dilapidations is prepared which will cost more. 10% of that is the admin fee and £800 is for the preparation of the initial inspection.
I spoke to a well known local surveyor but they weren't too useful other than advising I speak to a solicitor who specialises in dilapidations.
I checked my lease and these are the terms that they have drawn up the dilapidations based on:
- Pay the reasonable and proper costs and expenses of the landlord for the preparation and service of a schedule of dilapidations.
- Keep the property in good repair and condition.
- Decorate the outside and inside of the property in the last three months before the end of the term.
- Not make any alterations without consent.
- Yield up the property to the landlord including the removal of chattels and alterations.
From this they have come up with loads of costs which to me are ridiculous. Theres a £6k cost for replacing all the cladding panels which they say are damaged when there might be the slightest dint the size of a golf ball on maybe 3/4 places and which I can prove was already there at the time that I moved in.
They also keep quoting that I am supposed to have loads of certificates for gas, electricity, fire alarm (which I can prove was damaged) and even asbestos review on the building, to 'comply with statute'. How does this work - is this my obligation or the landlords if I was never offered these in the first place.
Even for decoration in the last three months, the majority of the property was painted including the shutters and is infinitely smarter than when we first took on the property yet they still quote £4k for this.
Right now I'm still confused at to the position I should take with responding to this whole thing. The dilapidations specialist will be expecting a reply pretty soon or they will start putting the pressure on me and probably make indirect threats of extra costs etc. I've been warned that the landlord is known for being aggressive with handling stuff like this.
My options are to either:
- argue the value of the dilapidations to try and reduce it to a smaller amount. I heard a neighbouring tenant settled on a quarter of the initial request.
- argue that the building is due to be knocked down so dilapidations are invalid and so should not be charged.
I looked into the planning permission on the building and the planning officer dealing with this property has advised that they are 'minded to grant' pending a section 106 legal agreement to secure various developer contributions which will take at least a few weeks.
Am I right in thinking that if I can procrastinate this whole thing over at least the next few weeks and they even start to knock the building down then all dilapidation claims become invalid and I won't have to pay them a penny (Or will I still have to pay them the cost of putting together the schedule of dilapidations as agreed in the lease.
What is the best way to procrastinate? If I arrange a meeting, ask some questions, send some emails all based around the initial dilapidation itemised costs, which they will probably answer, will this just be adding costs to the whole situation. Or should I just go and see a solicitor to advise me further. Last thing I want is to have spent a load of money speaking to a solicitor to then still end up paying big costs.
As far as the 1954 act. I know that the lease was initially a sublease and I had to sign away my security of tenure because I always knew they wanted to develop it after my time in there. I too had a subtenant at the end of the lease and even then they made a big issue with these tenants being there incase they exercised any security of tenure so they threatened me with breach of my lease unless the tenants too signed away their security of tenure.
Thanks for all the help and advice - As a one man band up against a multi million pound company employing 200 people with their own in house law team I need all the help I can get, haha!
I spoke to a well known local surveyor but they weren't too useful other than advising I speak to a solicitor who specialises in dilapidations.
I checked my lease and these are the terms that they have drawn up the dilapidations based on:
- Pay the reasonable and proper costs and expenses of the landlord for the preparation and service of a schedule of dilapidations.
- Keep the property in good repair and condition.
- Decorate the outside and inside of the property in the last three months before the end of the term.
- Not make any alterations without consent.
- Yield up the property to the landlord including the removal of chattels and alterations.
From this they have come up with loads of costs which to me are ridiculous. Theres a £6k cost for replacing all the cladding panels which they say are damaged when there might be the slightest dint the size of a golf ball on maybe 3/4 places and which I can prove was already there at the time that I moved in.
They also keep quoting that I am supposed to have loads of certificates for gas, electricity, fire alarm (which I can prove was damaged) and even asbestos review on the building, to 'comply with statute'. How does this work - is this my obligation or the landlords if I was never offered these in the first place.
Even for decoration in the last three months, the majority of the property was painted including the shutters and is infinitely smarter than when we first took on the property yet they still quote £4k for this.
Right now I'm still confused at to the position I should take with responding to this whole thing. The dilapidations specialist will be expecting a reply pretty soon or they will start putting the pressure on me and probably make indirect threats of extra costs etc. I've been warned that the landlord is known for being aggressive with handling stuff like this.
My options are to either:
- argue the value of the dilapidations to try and reduce it to a smaller amount. I heard a neighbouring tenant settled on a quarter of the initial request.
- argue that the building is due to be knocked down so dilapidations are invalid and so should not be charged.
I looked into the planning permission on the building and the planning officer dealing with this property has advised that they are 'minded to grant' pending a section 106 legal agreement to secure various developer contributions which will take at least a few weeks.
Am I right in thinking that if I can procrastinate this whole thing over at least the next few weeks and they even start to knock the building down then all dilapidation claims become invalid and I won't have to pay them a penny (Or will I still have to pay them the cost of putting together the schedule of dilapidations as agreed in the lease.
What is the best way to procrastinate? If I arrange a meeting, ask some questions, send some emails all based around the initial dilapidation itemised costs, which they will probably answer, will this just be adding costs to the whole situation. Or should I just go and see a solicitor to advise me further. Last thing I want is to have spent a load of money speaking to a solicitor to then still end up paying big costs.
As far as the 1954 act. I know that the lease was initially a sublease and I had to sign away my security of tenure because I always knew they wanted to develop it after my time in there. I too had a subtenant at the end of the lease and even then they made a big issue with these tenants being there incase they exercised any security of tenure so they threatened me with breach of my lease unless the tenants too signed away their security of tenure.
Thanks for all the help and advice - As a one man band up against a multi million pound company employing 200 people with their own in house law team I need all the help I can get, haha!
They have said they will settle quickly on half the amount so £12.5k for a quick settlement. I know another neighbour settled on just over £6k but his solicitor said he made the mistake of putting a figure in their heads. Obviously no work has been carried out and they have instead began the internal demolition of the property.
Been recommended two local surveyors through contacts - One is well known and works for a big national firm so I'm a bit worried about how much more they will charge. The other has still acted locally for some big companies and they advised me that just the fact that planning permission being in place is enough to negate any claim they have for dilapidations although I think i might still have to pay for that schedule to be put in place.
Thanks for the advice surveyor - one last thing - can you advise on what I should be paying for a surveyor to start the consultation initially. Does £600 sound about right. Obviously it will depend on how far they drag this out and how big the disputed claim becomes.
Thank
Been recommended two local surveyors through contacts - One is well known and works for a big national firm so I'm a bit worried about how much more they will charge. The other has still acted locally for some big companies and they advised me that just the fact that planning permission being in place is enough to negate any claim they have for dilapidations although I think i might still have to pay for that schedule to be put in place.
Thanks for the advice surveyor - one last thing - can you advise on what I should be paying for a surveyor to start the consultation initially. Does £600 sound about right. Obviously it will depend on how far they drag this out and how big the disputed claim becomes.
Thank
surveyor said:
+1 - missed that?
Although I suspect that it just means internal partitions going OP?
Its on one of the other adjoining units that have already moved out. Theres been work going on with trucks moving rubble out from the building so I'm assuming they have already started pulling down the none structural parts - maybe internal offices etc. The old tenants from this unit have been out for a good 4 months already. I just meant does this in any way mean that its more evidence of their intention to demolish it. Although I suspect that it just means internal partitions going OP?
I don't have evidence of it but we had people come into our warehouse to quote on knocking the whole thing down for the landlord at the end of November maybe a month before the end of the lease.
Also, I think it would be in their interests to get the project started as soon as possible - its another student accommodation development so I'd assume it would be timed to be completed by next summer so that they can started moving people in for the new term in September 2015. Someone guessed that another one of their developments began in October and was finished in time for June/July.
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