Apprentice safe extraction
Discussion
Sorry if this will sound mega daft to someone but I thought that among the entrepreneurial cream of piston heads someone will know the answer...
In my business, there is me, my wife(support from home really), frelancer and for the last 9 month an apprentice.
The overall performance of...lets call him 'Rocky' was always average but I alway though he still has time improve, unfortunately in recent weeks Rocky's performance has dropped - I'm talking about a lack of concentration, attention to details, misinterpreted instructions both verbal and written. I'm normally there to support him, react and avoid disasters. Last week, unfortunately, I was one sickrabbit and couldn't be there for Rocky as much as normal - I have instructed him to spend extra time on each task (list and instruction with step by step guides provided) and just pop up or radio me if he needs advice or help while I die replying to emails from my dark cave. Now a bit of explanation - we are sign makers and ethos of the company focuses on quality (among few other things less important in this scenario like say... making money) (I love brackets - sorry).
You now what's coming by now I'm sure - Yes Rocky has failed miserably!
Each sign we made last week we made at least twice (unless there is more attempts to be found in the dumpster on Monday) with one of them being made 6 times and fitted twice - yes I wasn't that hot checking stuff due to mentioned illness and I take part of the blame for actually getting one of the signs fitted.
To summarize we lost approx 1k in labor and materials last week alone due to Rocky's lack of care and attention - when confronted Rocky always replies 'I don't know', I havent realized or even tries to find a bright site of us binning 2mx1m acrylic sign after chipping of it's corner...words fail me...
Now Rocky is a nice lad really and when he cares he does alright but he only cares about things which interest him and this seems to be not a lot. I have already asked him if he's got any problems at home or with girlfriend, health,drughs or alcoholh - further more he calims to be proud to be working for us and he loves it.
I have decided that it would be best to extract Rocky and replace him with experienced member of staff (waiting ready) but I'm unsure how should I go by showing Rocky the door so that there is no come back - Rocky's mum works for employabilty lawyers (palmface goes in here)!
Considering I know next to nothing about HR and employment laws (had agency to sort things out for me in the past) do I:
A: hire someone to deal with it and lose even more money but gain the piece of mind
B: sort it out DIY style with help of fellow Pistonheaders
C: ask the school to step in
Yours trully sickrabbit (excuse spellign stylistics and whatever else I did wrong it's 4am I'm in pain, on drugs and with 39.4 temp)
In my business, there is me, my wife(support from home really), frelancer and for the last 9 month an apprentice.
The overall performance of...lets call him 'Rocky' was always average but I alway though he still has time improve, unfortunately in recent weeks Rocky's performance has dropped - I'm talking about a lack of concentration, attention to details, misinterpreted instructions both verbal and written. I'm normally there to support him, react and avoid disasters. Last week, unfortunately, I was one sickrabbit and couldn't be there for Rocky as much as normal - I have instructed him to spend extra time on each task (list and instruction with step by step guides provided) and just pop up or radio me if he needs advice or help while I die replying to emails from my dark cave. Now a bit of explanation - we are sign makers and ethos of the company focuses on quality (among few other things less important in this scenario like say... making money) (I love brackets - sorry).
You now what's coming by now I'm sure - Yes Rocky has failed miserably!
Each sign we made last week we made at least twice (unless there is more attempts to be found in the dumpster on Monday) with one of them being made 6 times and fitted twice - yes I wasn't that hot checking stuff due to mentioned illness and I take part of the blame for actually getting one of the signs fitted.
To summarize we lost approx 1k in labor and materials last week alone due to Rocky's lack of care and attention - when confronted Rocky always replies 'I don't know', I havent realized or even tries to find a bright site of us binning 2mx1m acrylic sign after chipping of it's corner...words fail me...
Now Rocky is a nice lad really and when he cares he does alright but he only cares about things which interest him and this seems to be not a lot. I have already asked him if he's got any problems at home or with girlfriend, health,drughs or alcoholh - further more he calims to be proud to be working for us and he loves it.
I have decided that it would be best to extract Rocky and replace him with experienced member of staff (waiting ready) but I'm unsure how should I go by showing Rocky the door so that there is no come back - Rocky's mum works for employabilty lawyers (palmface goes in here)!
Considering I know next to nothing about HR and employment laws (had agency to sort things out for me in the past) do I:
A: hire someone to deal with it and lose even more money but gain the piece of mind
B: sort it out DIY style with help of fellow Pistonheaders
C: ask the school to step in
Yours trully sickrabbit (excuse spellign stylistics and whatever else I did wrong it's 4am I'm in pain, on drugs and with 39.4 temp)
NoIP said:
You've neglected to mention anything about the most relevant bit in all this : what does his contract say? Specifically whether it's a fixed term apprenticeship and what clauses you have regarding notice periods, termination, gross misconduct etc. What it says in there will give you your answers on how to proceed.
Very True - I shall get the contract out and report back - it was prepared by HR consultancy - from memory, it's not fixed term...21TonyK said:
My experience of apprentices is that you have regular meetings with their school/college to review progress etc. I'm assuming you have had these and at each one said he's doing ok but needs to try harder or words to that effect?
I would ask for another meeting asap and explain its not working out, little improvement over time and that you can't keep him on.
I would not mention recent events as if you had been supervising closely (as per normal) the issues would not have occurred and Rocky would be safe. If he raises it as an issue then I would simply say it highlighted longer term problems of progress and development.
College doesn't give a fxxk I'm afraid 9 months in they are still planning the first meeting on site, the 2 - 3 telephone conversations with them were brief and one voicing my concern was extra brief as they didn't want to know...#sadI would ask for another meeting asap and explain its not working out, little improvement over time and that you can't keep him on.
I would not mention recent events as if you had been supervising closely (as per normal) the issues would not have occurred and Rocky would be safe. If he raises it as an issue then I would simply say it highlighted longer term problems of progress and development.
Hoppum said:
Have you spoken to Rocky about whether he actually wants a career in sign making? And have you given him any formal warnings on his performance yet?
It's entirely possible that through learning the job he's realised that he doesn't want to make signs but could possibly feel that he's made his bed and now has to lay in it.
If it was me in your position I'd (assuming this is a 8-5 Monday to Friday job) sit him down at 4pm on a Friday and explain what you've told us in your post, that this has to change and last week cannot happen again as it's just not sustainable for the business, and to consider this conversation a verbal warning on his performance (assuming you haven't already given him one).
Then follow this up with an escape route for him. Ask him if he's sure that this is what he wants to do with his life, that it's perfectly ok if he doesn't as you can part ways amicably and that he doesn't have to give you an answer now and can take the weekend to think it over.
If come Monday he's decided that he doesn't, problem solved. If he's decided he does he should have a renewed drive for the job and hopefully you can put together a plan to help him improve.
Like this solution - Rocky always said it wasn't something he initially wanted to do but grades didn't allow him to study - but then he seemed so impressed with the stuff he gets to learn and generally involved in the business life and proud of our achievements (w do stuff for high street brands and been featured in press on many occasions and Rocky got to play a part in it all)It's entirely possible that through learning the job he's realised that he doesn't want to make signs but could possibly feel that he's made his bed and now has to lay in it.
If it was me in your position I'd (assuming this is a 8-5 Monday to Friday job) sit him down at 4pm on a Friday and explain what you've told us in your post, that this has to change and last week cannot happen again as it's just not sustainable for the business, and to consider this conversation a verbal warning on his performance (assuming you haven't already given him one).
Then follow this up with an escape route for him. Ask him if he's sure that this is what he wants to do with his life, that it's perfectly ok if he doesn't as you can part ways amicably and that he doesn't have to give you an answer now and can take the weekend to think it over.
If come Monday he's decided that he doesn't, problem solved. If he's decided he does he should have a renewed drive for the job and hopefully you can put together a plan to help him improve.
jas xjr said:
should an apprentice be making and installing signs on his own ?
You can't leave an apprentice unattended (depends on age Rocky falls under the youngest category which can't be left in a building on their own)We would never allow Rocky to install anything on he's own.
After 9 months of intensive training, he should be able to prep artwork, panels, vinyl and or print and put it all together - we wouldn't expect him to venture into something more complicated than a flat panel or something bigger than 2x2m on his own.
Well - Rocky is still with us - he's contract ends in 2 months and I'm afraid it will not be renewed - unfortunately for him if he suffers from any of the mentioned here conditions I'm not skilled enough to help him - further more my pockets are not deep enough to fund his journey to recovery - I'm now waiting to be crucified for the above #takingcover
Poisson96 said:
My boss has suddenly decided I need to be fired, despite putting my all in to my work. You can't make an apprentice redundant and the firm is going under....
As a plea, sit him down and tell him why and let him explain. Don't give him a verbal warning, written warning etc and fire him without listening. I too worm for a very small firm and believe apprentices should never go to a small firms ever.
Please note I haven't fired him or gave him any official warnings or made him repay any loses - instead, I will allow him to finish the course support him and pay him until he's contracted finishes but I'm unable to employ him afterward for reasons mentioned...As a plea, sit him down and tell him why and let him explain. Don't give him a verbal warning, written warning etc and fire him without listening. I too worm for a very small firm and believe apprentices should never go to a small firms ever.
Driver101 said:
I've had lots of dealings with apprentices. The issues that hit me is the younger generation just don't give a f
k. So many young people have the chance to carve a career and can't apply themselves.
However, in this profit driven world too many companies expect too much. A genuine apprenticeship is 4 years long and requires proper instruction, guidance and college qualifications to back the apprenticeship.
If the job doesn't require years to develop the skills to do the job then it's not an apprenticeship. If you are trying to fire young people into advanced skills after months you are taking advantage of them and the system.
I would agree in general but how does one react when after 9 months of intensive training Rocky inserts a roll of banner with 1ft of the material left on it knowing he needs to print a 10m banner - he then tries to pull it through the machine standing in front of it without a result (the roll end is stuck on the cardboard core he just inserted into the back of the machine) and tells me that the machine is jammed - when asked how much stuff he's putting in vs how much he needs all we get is '...erm I don't know...' we can tell straight away not one brain cell was engaged to find the answer it's the 'do i give a frog' auto reply system which is engaged...and that's what hurts...k. So many young people have the chance to carve a career and can't apply themselves.However, in this profit driven world too many companies expect too much. A genuine apprenticeship is 4 years long and requires proper instruction, guidance and college qualifications to back the apprenticeship.
If the job doesn't require years to develop the skills to do the job then it's not an apprenticeship. If you are trying to fire young people into advanced skills after months you are taking advantage of them and the system.
NoIP said:
craigjm said:
It's not a crock of st at all. Apprentices are protected far more heavily under employment law than normal workers. Your advice would be useless because he is not employed by "the school" so they have no liability and if he fires him then he is open to an employment tribunal claim with a payout of around 25k, I would be fuming if your advice, sorry I mean crock of st, cost me 25k as an employer
If his contract ends (as the OP has said) then he's fully within his rights to bin him off and not renew it. Where does it say in employment law that apprentices cannot be binned off at the end of their term?t at all. Apprentices are protected far more heavily under employment law than normal workers. Your advice would be useless because he is not employed by "the school" so they have no liability and if he fires him then he is open to an employment tribunal claim with a payout of around 25k, I would be fuming if your advice, sorry I mean crock of st, cost me 25k as an employer http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/legal-qa-employer...
Personneltoday said:
Under what circumstances can an apprentice be dismissed?
It is only in the most serious cases of misconduct that an apprentice can be fairly dismissed.
The issue is, in essence, whether the conduct of the apprentice is such that it renders them impossible to teach. This could be by way of repeated wilful disobedience of direct instructions and/or a habitual neglect of specific duties.
His continual fIt is only in the most serious cases of misconduct that an apprentice can be fairly dismissed.
The issue is, in essence, whether the conduct of the apprentice is such that it renders them impossible to teach. This could be by way of repeated wilful disobedience of direct instructions and/or a habitual neglect of specific duties.
k ups when making the signs despite being told a thousand times by the OP how to do them would fall squarely within the highlighted bit above.https://www.crunch.co.uk/blog/small-business-advic...
crunch said:
Ending the Apprenticeship at the end of the training? If an apprentice’s employment is not renewed when their training ends then they will be treated as having been dismissed. The apprentice will be entitled to receive a written reason for dismissal and the ACAS Dismissal Code will apply (as for all employees). Because an apprenticeship contract is for a specific purpose – training – the contract will end on the completion of that training and the dismissal will therefore be for ‘Some Other Substantial Reason’ (SOSR). There is no need to provide a notice period of dismissal. There is no legal requirement to provide employment at the end of the apprenticeship but an employer may agree contractually to do this; and there is no duty on the employer to redeploy the apprentice into suitable alternative employment.
See the 2 months out, assign him to tea making or something that he can without arsing it up then bin him off.Ladies and Gentleman - we have a verdict - we will see ROCKY through to the end of his 'sentence' and allow him to happily finish he's course and hopefully, he passes his exams and the release him back to the wild!
This will not only spare us the tormoil of dealing with angry Rocky angry Rocky's parent's tutors and girlfriends but also saves us filling tons of papers or risk of facing fines of the multitude. Hopefully - Rocky will start to train again and wins the unfair fight with reality! Viva la education system!
This will not only spare us the tormoil of dealing with angry Rocky angry Rocky's parent's tutors and girlfriends but also saves us filling tons of papers or risk of facing fines of the multitude. Hopefully - Rocky will start to train again and wins the unfair fight with reality! Viva la education system!
- some of the sarcasm might have been intentional
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