Is this fraudulent?

[Collaudatore]

Firstly, I did try Google, but to no avail.

A supplier of ours has sent a letter stating that "his business is now known as **** and the new bank details are ***"

Upon further review, I find this is not corporate rebranding exercise, but is in fact a new company with a very similar name.

Recently he has sent us a bunch of invoices predating the date of his companies incorporation.

It is his company, but I think he is trying to pull a fast one, and these charges ought to be paid to the old company.

Hope I've explained that sufficiently well

If anyone has any links to support their findings, that'd be smashing too

Thanks PH

[Collaudatore]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I've been through exactly this.

We were XYZ Systems Ltd. We had to go into administration, so we wrote to all our customers & supplier to say in future we would be XYZ Something Else Ltd.

What we didn't do was steal the admin funds by invoicing for old co's stuff from new co.

Yes I believe this is what he is trying to achieve.

It is definitely the same person running the (new) company.
What I am questioning is whether billing the old companies services from the new company is legal or not.
Companies House does not register the old company as "in administration", but there is a recent director change noted there. How quickly does Companies House update for this sort of change?

[Collaudatore]

sleepezy said:

Collaudatore said:

What I am questioning is whether billing the old companies services from the new company is legal or not.

It is unusual - but it is possible that as part of a prepack he bought all the trade including any unbilled 'WIP'

Collaudatore said:

Companies House does not register the old company as "in administration", but there is a recent director change noted there. How quickly does Companies House update for this sort of change?

Normally pretty quickly - a few days at most - you could search the London Gazette or ask for the appointment docs (the latter particularly given you know he's trying to bill from a different company). I'd want to see an executed sale agreement from oldco to newco (or at least have confirmation from the administrator) to cover my back otherwise you could have the administrator come after you again (assuming your presumption is correct)

Okay, so if it is a matter of a few days, then oldco is definitely not in administration.
Further information. Oldco - he is still a director. Newco, someone who could be his wife/sister is the director.
There is also another resignation of someone who could be a wife (or sister) about 5 years ago.


Man gets separated from wife.
Man (edit) *stops trading* from old company and his new wife or sister creates new company.
Man bills for services performed by Oldco from Newco to avoid paying wife during divorce?
Meanwhile PHer gets free stuff...?

Edited by Collaudatore on Tuesday 21st July 09:43

[Collaudatore]

Gary C said:

Can you contact the new director ?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. It is a resignation of a director.

[Collaudatore]

sgrimshaw said:

If you have any doubts then .....

Tell him that you are unable to pay a different company than that named on the invoice.

He should arrange for the original invoices to be credited by the old company and re-invoiced by the new company.

It's the other way around though. He has performed work under the old company name and did not bill us for several months. Now the new company is billing us.

[Collaudatore]

sgrimshaw said:

So presumeably you either sent a PO or had a contract with Old Company to provide Goods or Services?

You have no such agreement or liability to pay New Company.

Just say for example, you did pay the New Company's invoices .... what will your defence be to Old Company for not paying their invoices should they eventually submit them?

Are these VAT Invoices?

Yes, these are VAT invoices.

Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.

Unfortunately, as a company...how do I put this? There are individuals within the company who will pick up the phone and say "Aye Jimbob, we need this here, now" and so Jimbob rocks up and expects to get paid as he delivered what he was asked - small companies/small suppliers/informal processes.

So with that in mind, we do not have a black and white contract with either Newco or Oldco, but it is plain that the contract was not with Newco as the company was not yet incorporated when the services were (as stated on the invoice) performed.

[Collaudatore]

sideways sid said:

Collaudatore said:

Yes, these are VAT invoices.

Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.

I guess this is the sentence that could cause trouble if it ever got to court.

Was the letter from OldCo introducing NewCo, explaining that future work would be requested by NewCo and paid for by NewCo?

It sounds more like letter was from NewCo, requesting that historic invoices issued by OldCo are paid to NewCo, which probably has little value legally and would not help your defence.

Ah but the scenario is subtley different. The work was carried out by OldCo, but the invoices are from NewCo. The supplier had never invoiced us for the work previously.

[Collaudatore]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Collaudatore said:

sideways sid said:

Collaudatore said:

Yes, these are VAT invoices.

Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.

I guess this is the sentence that could cause trouble if it ever got to court.

Was the letter from OldCo introducing NewCo, explaining that future work would be requested by NewCo and paid for by NewCo?

It sounds more like letter was from NewCo, requesting that historic invoices issued by OldCo are paid to NewCo, which probably has little value legally and would not help your defence.

Ah but the scenario is subtley different. The work was carried out by OldCo, but the invoices are from NewCo. The supplier had never invoiced us for the work previously.

...and the date on the new co invoices pre date its inception

No, the actual invoice (VAT) dates are very recent, but the description of services carried out clearly states for xxxx work carried out on xxxx date (a few months ago - prior to incorporation of NewCo)

[Collaudatore]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Collaudatore said:

Recently he has sent us a bunch of invoices predating the date of his companies incorporation.

So you didn't actually mean the above? You mean the supply was prior.

Yes, poor choice of terminology. The supply was prior and the date of supply is written on the invoices, but the VAT date is relatively current. Sorry for the confusion.

jammy-git said:

1. What documents do you have from OldCo? Any invoices, quotes, contracts, etc?
2. What sort of relationship do you want with NewCo moving forward?

Invoices yes, but absolutely nothing else, other than a letter explaining that OldCo is now known as NewCo (which it is not, it is a new company)
As far as we're concerned, they're not the only show in town, but we chose them to supply our services for a reason, so we'd like to continue doing business with them in the future.

dartissimus said:

Sounds like yes.

Check the VAT registration of Newco first; when was it first registered, if it's very new it might not be registered, that's a serious fraud.
...
You have a debt to Oldco, if you pay Newco and it's not Kosher, you'll still owe Oldco.
...
Don't get involved in someone else's dodgy carry on.

My thoughts exactly