Inheritance tax question
Discussion
Ok, completely hypothetical.
Parent wants to give child large cash gift prior to death.
Would it be a problem, legally, for both parent and child to "collude", in losing and winning a bet (on Betfair say), so that money passes from one to the other?
I know that this is probably illegal, but in reality, is it traceable?
Just the product of a drunk conversation about tax.
Parent wants to give child large cash gift prior to death.
Would it be a problem, legally, for both parent and child to "collude", in losing and winning a bet (on Betfair say), so that money passes from one to the other?
I know that this is probably illegal, but in reality, is it traceable?
Just the product of a drunk conversation about tax.
firths carpets said:
gIVE child money as a gift each year, subject to limits. and you can give large sums but parent has to outlive 7 years. Ask an accountant or ring the tax office Anon
Yeah, I know - it was just a query about possible issues with "giving" money by losing "legal" bets, as a means to move larger sums of money.
Not a real situation though, so no worries.
thewave said:
Eric Mc said:
The executor or solictor handling the deceased's estate.
Would a 'friendly' solicitor be useful?
They don't exist - seriously, 14 years max' in prison for money laundering, so solicitors are tighter than a ducks ass when it comes to dodgy tax issues.
The original conversation was just something that I was discussing with a solicitor who is looking at the different trusts they can set-up for a client with ~£8M estate, so the annual allowances mean squat. Obviously some spouse allowance etc, but I was trying to be a bit more "creative".
IANAL, obviously. And therefore I wouldn't suggest trying to defraud HMRC in any way....9 inches and all that.
Eric Mc said:
Tolleys are one of the best known publishers of taxation reference books in the UK. They produce a vast array of books covering all elements of UK taxation. The book I use is a fairly concise (only 859 pages) "summary" of the basic rules and regulations of Income Tax, VAT, Corporation Tax, Capital Gains Tax and Stamp Duty
Toplleys is now part of the Lexus/Nexus group..
Toplleys is now part of the Lexus/Nexus group..
Whats the name of the chap (possibly ex-judge) who wrote books on Trusts? Said that if anyone ever had problems using one of his trusts he would *personally* work for them in court?
Eric Mc said:
Can't help on that one.
No worries, not important - can find out at home. Eric Mc said:
It really is a queation of the Revenue moving the goal posts whilst the match is still on. What's more, some of the revised trust legislation is retrospective so they may go back and recover tax previously assumed legitimately avoided in what had been a perferctly legal trust set-up.
Yes, that's what the solicitor involved is concerned about...there's a lot of things changing soon (for instance EPAs -> LPAs...get your EPA done now if you want one is the advice at her place). Was just one of those odd conversations. She couldn't say specifically what was wrong with my plan, other than "it wouldn't work" - which although partly true (I don't think it would), I think it *could* be possibly, just not on such a large scale.
Tiggsy said:
to answer the original question....
can you give money away the lie about it if you die within 7 years - no
if you did would you get away with it - possible
if you were caught - tax evasion
does it happen - all the time i expect
Tiggs (IHT consultant)
can you give money away the lie about it if you die within 7 years - no
if you did would you get away with it - possible
if you were caught - tax evasion
does it happen - all the time i expect
Tiggs (IHT consultant)
Yeah, but it wasn't "giving it away", the idea was that if you were to "legitimateiy" gamble it, but lose - and somebody you knew happened to win...well, which law(s) would be broken?
frazer guest said:
tigger1 said:
Ok, completely hypothetical.
Parent wants to give child large cash gift prior to death.
Would it be a problem, legally, for both parent and child to "collude", in losing and winning a bet (on Betfair say), so that money passes from one to the other?
I know that this is probably illegal, but in reality, is it traceable?
Just the product of a drunk conversation about tax.
Parent wants to give child large cash gift prior to death.
Would it be a problem, legally, for both parent and child to "collude", in losing and winning a bet (on Betfair say), so that money passes from one to the other?
I know that this is probably illegal, but in reality, is it traceable?
Just the product of a drunk conversation about tax.
do you know what, that is a fantastic idea. if i may just tweak it a little?
father, son and mate of son go into a casino. all three go into the cardroom to play cash poker. father loses money to mate of son, mate of son then loses the same amount of money to son. jobs done.
so long as it does not exceed £4999.99 in one 24 hour period, or £9999.99 in a week, it will not get recorded under money laundering laws, although in reality, these laws arnt enforced in cardrooms, just on the gaming tables.
Hmmm....interesting.
Espescially as the limits for gifts is c.7k. per year or something. This way you could "dispose" of 50k in a month, although it may be wise for the "son" in the situation to hold quite a lot of money as cash due to the obvious traceability if 50k moves from one account to another in a month.
frazer guest said:
tigger1 said:
frazer guest said:
tigger1 said:
Ok, completely hypothetical.
Parent wants to give child large cash gift prior to death.
Would it be a problem, legally, for both parent and child to "collude", in losing and winning a bet (on Betfair say), so that money passes from one to the other?
I know that this is probably illegal, but in reality, is it traceable?
Just the product of a drunk conversation about tax.
Parent wants to give child large cash gift prior to death.
Would it be a problem, legally, for both parent and child to "collude", in losing and winning a bet (on Betfair say), so that money passes from one to the other?
I know that this is probably illegal, but in reality, is it traceable?
Just the product of a drunk conversation about tax.
do you know what, that is a fantastic idea. if i may just tweak it a little?
father, son and mate of son go into a casino. all three go into the cardroom to play cash poker. father loses money to mate of son, mate of son then loses the same amount of money to son. jobs done.
so long as it does not exceed £4999.99 in one 24 hour period, or £9999.99 in a week, it will not get recorded under money laundering laws, although in reality, these laws arnt enforced in cardrooms, just on the gaming tables.
Hmmm....interesting.
Espescially as the limits for gifts is c.7k. per year or something. This way you could "dispose" of 50k in a month, although it may be wise for the "son" in the situation to hold quite a lot of money as cash due to the obvious traceability if 50k moves from one account to another in a month.
There is a way around that. before the son leaves the casino, son exchanges cash, (pound notes), for chips, (casino money). son then takes those chips to another casino in the same group, (gala etc), where he asks for a winners cheaqe.
Lads, I think we're onto something.
Eric Mc said:
It looks to me that this scheme is based on the premise, not on whether it is legal or not, but rather on the liklehood of being found out.
Just because a crime is clever, complicated and hard to detect doesn't make it legal.
Just because a crime is clever, complicated and hard to detect doesn't make it legal.
Just to (again!) point out, I'm not intending to do this, nor does anyone I know plan to - its just the result of an over the pub table conversation, a lot like the "if I were to murder somebody, this is how I'd do it" type convo's!
frazer guest said:
tigger1 said:
Eric Mc said:
It looks to me that this scheme is based on the premise, not on whether it is legal or not, but rather on the liklehood of being found out.
Just because a crime is clever, complicated and hard to detect doesn't make it legal.
Just because a crime is clever, complicated and hard to detect doesn't make it legal.
Just to (again!) point out, I'm not intending to do this, nor does anyone I know plan to - its just the result of an over the pub table conversation, a lot like the "if I were to murder somebody, this is how I'd do it" type convo's!
ok. but if you do, you'd better take someone with you who has inside knowledge of how these places work, the rules and procedures, the money laundering laws etc.
of course that person would expect a small cut.
feel free to PM me through my profile.
Hypothetically, you'd be the first to know.
ATG said:
Only problem with the casino method is that if you can only move up to £10k per week, then transferring an amount like £8m would take about 15 years.
So you've got a choice of:
(a)just giving the money away and then hoping you live seven years and thus paying no tax
(b) having to live 15 years in order to pull it off, risking going to prison and being fined enormous amounts if you're caught .. and the same risk hanging over the head of your children for years to come
So you've got a choice of:
(a)just giving the money away and then hoping you live seven years and thus paying no tax
(b) having to live 15 years in order to pull it off, risking going to prison and being fined enormous amounts if you're caught .. and the same risk hanging over the head of your children for years to come
Yes, it'd be no good for £8M, but with that kind of amount I wouldn't care, but say I wished to give £20k each to a few of my children (I have none, yet, all very hypothetical, it really *was8 just pub talk!) - this could be done in a month or so, rather than a period of years.
Didn't say it was a perfect plan!
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