Want to buy a used BMW i8 with Bitcoin
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
Out of interest, is there anyone on here who would accept payment in bitcoin for this sort of amount?
I'm approaching the point where I could buy a posh car. But I wouldn't without appropriate legal advice.I'm already trying to understand the tax liability if I "cash out", and/or the liability of spending the btc on stuff like vpn tokens as I go along.
Ie, the original coins I bought were cheap and a coin might buy a full token for vpn for a few months.
Now I can buy a century's worth of vpn for one coin.
It's not my fault it went up, I just bought a few because it was such a hassle to buy any, I just bought a load so I could spend as I needed easily.
Even just using btc is now theoretically a minefield unless you buy/spend from fiat immediately.
I'm not sure if HMRC have clarified this in any clear way.
As said cap gains is fine, but if you just buy a lump and intend to spend it over time, the paper trail and calcs of gain over time are a bloody nightmare.
Easier if you're treating it like a lump of gold you don't chop up and spend.
So yeah, buying a car with it. I wouldn't sell my car for it as to cash it out the bank and HMRC would want proof of where it came from.
Your cash would come from the buyer of your btc, NOT the person buying your car.
Instantly it looks dodgy as hell. Not ideal.
Mr Whippy said:
I'm approaching the point where I could buy a posh car. But I wouldn't without appropriate legal advice.
I'm already trying to understand the tax liability if I "cash out", and/or the liability of spending the btc on stuff like vpn tokens as I go along.
Ie, the original coins I bought were cheap and a coin might buy a full token for vpn for a few months.
Now I can buy a century's worth of vpn for one coin.
It's not my fault it went up, I just bought a few because it was such a hassle to buy any, I just bought a load so I could spend as I needed easily.
Even just using btc is now theoretically a minefield unless you buy/spend from fiat immediately.
I'm not sure if HMRC have clarified this in any clear way.
As said cap gains is fine, but if you just buy a lump and intend to spend it over time, the paper trail and calcs of gain over time are a bloody nightmare.
Easier if you're treating it like a lump of gold you don't chop up and spend.
So yeah, buying a car with it. I wouldn't sell my car for it as to cash it out the bank and HMRC would want proof of where it came from.
Your cash would come from the buyer of your btc, NOT the person buying your car.
Instantly it looks dodgy as hell. Not ideal.
Is that a no, then?I'm already trying to understand the tax liability if I "cash out", and/or the liability of spending the btc on stuff like vpn tokens as I go along.
Ie, the original coins I bought were cheap and a coin might buy a full token for vpn for a few months.
Now I can buy a century's worth of vpn for one coin.
It's not my fault it went up, I just bought a few because it was such a hassle to buy any, I just bought a load so I could spend as I needed easily.
Even just using btc is now theoretically a minefield unless you buy/spend from fiat immediately.
I'm not sure if HMRC have clarified this in any clear way.
As said cap gains is fine, but if you just buy a lump and intend to spend it over time, the paper trail and calcs of gain over time are a bloody nightmare.
Easier if you're treating it like a lump of gold you don't chop up and spend.
So yeah, buying a car with it. I wouldn't sell my car for it as to cash it out the bank and HMRC would want proof of where it came from.
Your cash would come from the buyer of your btc, NOT the person buying your car.
Instantly it looks dodgy as hell. Not ideal.
Yes it's a no, with reasoning.
Reasoning and explanation are severely thin on the ground when it comes to using btc to buy things of significant value.
Last thing you want is a trading party having both their £50,000 BMW i8 *and* £50,000 cash disappearing under POCA because one of the buyers of the btc gave over dodgy money to buy the btc in the transfer.
Good reason then to hold the btc for a year in cold storage before splitting it down the middle a bunch of times via vpn connections, then cash out in as many ways as you can.
All too much hassle and makes you look even more dodgy.
Now if you could sell your car for btc and then go spend it at a car garage then fine.
There is still the matter of HMRC wanting their cut of cap gains.
Reasoning and explanation are severely thin on the ground when it comes to using btc to buy things of significant value.
Last thing you want is a trading party having both their £50,000 BMW i8 *and* £50,000 cash disappearing under POCA because one of the buyers of the btc gave over dodgy money to buy the btc in the transfer.
Good reason then to hold the btc for a year in cold storage before splitting it down the middle a bunch of times via vpn connections, then cash out in as many ways as you can.
All too much hassle and makes you look even more dodgy.
Now if you could sell your car for btc and then go spend it at a car garage then fine.
There is still the matter of HMRC wanting their cut of cap gains.
That's a fairly thought out response, though i have a different interpretation: my understanding of cap gains (though not necessarily the UK's) is it would be on the difference between asset cost and realized gain. Selling a car for £50k in BTC and getting £50k shows no "capital gain" to tax, which is roughly what would happen if you converted it immediately back to £.
Cap gains comes in if you sold it for £50k in BTC, held onto it for X period now it's worth £75k. The £25k is "free money", taxed or not, and as cream on top as a used car seller shouldn't be a problem to be subject to tax.
Also a seller accepting BTC can easily show how they got that in their bank account, far easier in fact than a wad of cash.. which would be impossible to prove. BTC is after all inherently traceable, my BTC leaves my wallet to yours, all with unique ID's.
I get this is a paradigm shift, but in some parallel universe the notion of me paying in BTC is normal but walking around with untraceable strips of paper with the queen on it is the wacky idea..
PS: as some disclosure, I'm not a legal expert but I've worked in Payments for a decade, designing various payment solutions across Europe. This is a great bit of product fit research as well as a legit problem for me.
Cap gains comes in if you sold it for £50k in BTC, held onto it for X period now it's worth £75k. The £25k is "free money", taxed or not, and as cream on top as a used car seller shouldn't be a problem to be subject to tax.
Also a seller accepting BTC can easily show how they got that in their bank account, far easier in fact than a wad of cash.. which would be impossible to prove. BTC is after all inherently traceable, my BTC leaves my wallet to yours, all with unique ID's.
I get this is a paradigm shift, but in some parallel universe the notion of me paying in BTC is normal but walking around with untraceable strips of paper with the queen on it is the wacky idea..
PS: as some disclosure, I'm not a legal expert but I've worked in Payments for a decade, designing various payment solutions across Europe. This is a great bit of product fit research as well as a legit problem for me.
Edited by kodachrome on Saturday 9th December 09:46
Problem is if you pay in btc, when did you get that btc?
Buy £50k worth a few days before going to buy car and have £60k upon paying, you have £10k in cap gain.
If you bought £500 worth 3 years ago, and now have £35,000 worth, you're exposed to cap gains.
Maybe over 3 years and £10k a year cap gain tax free limit you're ok, nearly?!
Does it matter if you have 'old' btc worth £50k and new?
How about you buy new, no cap gains.
Then 'sell' old into Etherium, or dark coin, then back to 'new' btc.
It's just a mine field of being half legit and half dodgy and eventually HMRC may want to know where it's come from and your liability to cap gains is gonna be tough to formally declare.
The longer you hold the larger the exposure and more likely you'll be observed when £100k+ starts dribbling into your real bank accounts.
Go for cash, and that's observed too.
In fact the best way is to buy a car and run for the hills!
Which then makes you think you wouldn't get involved in someone else's laundering activity!
Ie, selling your car that was bought cleanly, for btc that could be dirty, and receive possibly more dirty cash starting in another laundering loop.
Hmmmmm!
Buy £50k worth a few days before going to buy car and have £60k upon paying, you have £10k in cap gain.
If you bought £500 worth 3 years ago, and now have £35,000 worth, you're exposed to cap gains.
Maybe over 3 years and £10k a year cap gain tax free limit you're ok, nearly?!
Does it matter if you have 'old' btc worth £50k and new?
How about you buy new, no cap gains.
Then 'sell' old into Etherium, or dark coin, then back to 'new' btc.
It's just a mine field of being half legit and half dodgy and eventually HMRC may want to know where it's come from and your liability to cap gains is gonna be tough to formally declare.
The longer you hold the larger the exposure and more likely you'll be observed when £100k+ starts dribbling into your real bank accounts.
Go for cash, and that's observed too.
In fact the best way is to buy a car and run for the hills!
Which then makes you think you wouldn't get involved in someone else's laundering activity!
Ie, selling your car that was bought cleanly, for btc that could be dirty, and receive possibly more dirty cash starting in another laundering loop.
Hmmmmm!
I can't take out finance in the UK as I'm not from nor do I live in the UK! Also I was looking both private and dealer.
I'm thinking I'll just need to use my TenX card which is a bitcoin (and other cryptos) backed Visa Debit card. The Visa rules limit to 10k a transaction/20k a day and work around that.
For all this nonsense on how "bitcoin is dodgy" , "for drugs" it reminds me how people reacted to PayPal (12years ago) when I explained it to them first. I'm going out now to buy another coffee on bitcoin now, after paying for Christmas gifts today with bitcoin ( as well as a new phone). It's just so.. normal.
I'm thinking I'll just need to use my TenX card which is a bitcoin (and other cryptos) backed Visa Debit card. The Visa rules limit to 10k a transaction/20k a day and work around that.
For all this nonsense on how "bitcoin is dodgy" , "for drugs" it reminds me how people reacted to PayPal (12years ago) when I explained it to them first. I'm going out now to buy another coffee on bitcoin now, after paying for Christmas gifts today with bitcoin ( as well as a new phone). It's just so.. normal.
kodachrome said:
All the Debit cards I looked into and have access to have EUR10k limits per transaction and EUR20k per day..
Credit Cards can have super high limits but a) I thankfully dont have one and b) attract much higher transaction cost than Bitcoin (approx $15 a transaction).
I bought a £40k car on my bank visa debit, mate bought his £100k Fezza on his.Credit Cards can have super high limits but a) I thankfully dont have one and b) attract much higher transaction cost than Bitcoin (approx $15 a transaction).
kodachrome said:
I can't take out finance in the UK as I'm not from nor do I live in the UK! Also I was looking both private and dealer.
I'm thinking I'll just need to use my TenX card which is a bitcoin (and other cryptos) backed Visa Debit card. The Visa rules limit to 10k a transaction/20k a day and work around that.
For all this nonsense on how "bitcoin is dodgy" , "for drugs" it reminds me how people reacted to PayPal (12years ago) when I explained it to them first. I'm going out now to buy another coffee on bitcoin now, after paying for Christmas gifts today with bitcoin ( as well as a new phone). It's just so.. normal.
Normal it may be but what is the point if you can't easily use it to buy what you want (e.g. a car)? My debit card buys coffee, Christmas gifts, phones and cars (biggest transaction in a day was 85K) and is unlikely to leave me, or the vendor, with nothing. That said, the funds it draws on haven't rocketed in value I'm thinking I'll just need to use my TenX card which is a bitcoin (and other cryptos) backed Visa Debit card. The Visa rules limit to 10k a transaction/20k a day and work around that.
For all this nonsense on how "bitcoin is dodgy" , "for drugs" it reminds me how people reacted to PayPal (12years ago) when I explained it to them first. I'm going out now to buy another coffee on bitcoin now, after paying for Christmas gifts today with bitcoin ( as well as a new phone). It's just so.. normal.
Discombobulate said:
Normal it may be but what is the point if you can't easily use it to buy what you want (e.g. a car)? My debit card buys coffee, Christmas gifts, phones and cars (biggest transaction in a day was 85K) and is unlikely to leave me, or the vendor, with nothing. That said, the funds it draws on haven't rocketed in value
My TenX card is a Visa Debit card (backed by Bitcoin wallet) and does all of that bar the car bit. EUR20k per day max. No Debit card I can see in Ireland offers more than this (note TenX isnt an Irish card). A Credit card would however.NorthDave said:
A simple phone call to the bank can up your bank transfer or card limit (certainly bank transfer limit). They just set it at £10k as a default.
Yeah, within this jurisdiction.. not to the UK.kodachrome said:
All the Debit cards I looked into and have access to have EUR10k limits per transaction and EUR20k per day..
Credit Cards can have super high limits but a) I thankfully dont have one and b) attract much higher transaction cost than Bitcoin (approx $15 a transaction).
Paid for my D4 just Sub 50k only stipulation was I had to pay in 30 minutes of me putting the phone down from booking it with my bankCredit Cards can have super high limits but a) I thankfully dont have one and b) attract much higher transaction cost than Bitcoin (approx $15 a transaction).
helix402 said:
Where are the magic beans? Is this a pantomime?
they are numbers on a computer that used to be quite good for paying for drugs, guns, ransoms, and what not, but now are completely useless and an environmental disaster and a security nightmare.https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/75cup4/h...
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/...
https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/7cghbk/...
It's a cancer on humanity and the sooner it crashes to zero and posts like the OP's disappear, the better.
thelawnet1 said:
helix402 said:
Where are the magic beans? Is this a pantomime?
they are numbers on a computer that used to be quite good for paying for drugs, guns, ransoms, and what not, but now are completely useless and an environmental disaster and a security nightmare.https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/75cup4/h...
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/...
https://www.reddit.com/r/CoinBase/comments/7cghbk/...
It's a cancer on humanity and the sooner it crashes to zero and posts like the OP's disappear, the better.
Magic beans help bring joy and happiness to children all around the Country every Christmas - That's a fact!
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