The reality of life for many MANY people.
Discussion
TTwiggy said:
While I agree that the poster you were replying to offers an argument so full of holes it might easily be cheese, I would pick you up on this point. It's a mantra oft repeated in NP&E that 'anyone can earn [insert avarice-inducing salary] if they just work hard'. It is however, I'm afraid, complete b
ks. Hard work and earnings rarely correlate - at least not in the simplistic terms in which they are often presented on here (or rather, over there...)
The phrase shouldn't be "work hard", it should be "work smart". ks. Hard work and earnings rarely correlate - at least not in the simplistic terms in which they are often presented on here (or rather, over there...)There is no reward for slaving away 50 hours for £50 pay versus doing 1 easy hour for £50, and nor should there be.
The only thing where "work hard" applies is in stuff entirely to do with yourself - put the hours in on research and learning new things that you can put to use, put the hours in on starting up a business. That's working hard for a good reason - to better your lot in life.
Working hard for your boss for pay you're unhappy with is just being inefficient.
In this day and age everyone can have access to the internet for a few quid a month and the Internet contains more information on every subject than you'd ever need to know to better your lot.
The fact is that in life some people - whether due to nature or nurture is irrelevant - don't have the ability or the will to think this way and that ambition to better themselves. That's OK. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make it unjust. I was born without the natural talent to be a professional athlete, that doesn't mean professional athletes are unjust or should be kept down. We seem pretty willing to accept that some people are just better than others physically. Maybe it's because you can see it with your bare eyes.
Nobody is entitled to success, it should be earned, because if it's not earned then it's meaningless. In fact if you flipped the whole system over and made it so everyone succeeds automatically then by virtue of our nature as human beings we would quickly change the definition of success - just like how in some countries tanned skin is desirable as a sign of being a well travelled jet setter wealthy type, in other countries tanned skin is seen as evidence that you're poor and can't afford to keep out of the sun. There can never be a utopia situation where everybody succeeds because humans always need a heirarchy. And that's good.
If you started giving away 100ft yachts on benefits then 100ft yachts would very quickly lose their appeal as status symbols.
Edited by OwenK on Thursday 20th October 14:56
TTwiggy said:
Nanook said:
You pay your money, you take your choice. If you're not a brainless muppet, go and better yourself, if you want to earn more money or eat caviar. There's no-one stopping you.
While I agree that the poster you were replying to offers an argument so full of holes it might easily be cheese, I would pick you up on this point. It's a mantra oft repeated in NP&E that 'anyone can earn [insert avarice-inducing salary] if they just work hard'. It is however, I'm afraid, complete bks. Hard work and earnings rarely correlate - at least not in the simplistic terms in which they are often presented on here (or rather, over there...)You work hard, you graft, you give everything to "the company".
In thanks for your hard work and sacrifice, the management prevent/sabotage you applying for other positions within the company as "you're just to valuable to the team i hope you understand"
they also do not acknowledge request for pay rises due to you being so valuable, and the times that they do, it's"not something we control, ill ask..." ( there is never an answer )
and finally, there is never the opportunity to progress 'up' through the company, the next position up is continually held beyond you as they will not allow you a few mins per day of experiencing the role so that you can actually perform at the interview and know wtf youre talking about ( presuming that you haven't been sabotaged in getting the interview in the first place )
Apply to another company i hear you all shout...
but how will a sideways move into the same role on the same pay at another company that is probably further away and will treat you exactly the same way help. You still dont have actual experience of that next position up, and no way to get it.
hurrah for social mobility
TheJimi said:
Don said:
TheJimi said:
Don said:
freshkid said:
How anyone can manage to go through life without encountering normal people is beyond me.
This is neither good nor bad. But it is the way it is....My circle of friends and people I associate with span everyone from people who are barely employed to famous artists, to people more posh than the queen - and my life is all the richer for it..
You, on the other hand, appear to take a certain amount of sneering pleasure from your isolation, and your good life, as you see it, compared with others that I suspect you deem beneath you.
t one one post.OwenK said:
The phrase shouldn't be "work hard", it should be "work smart".
There is no reward for slaving away 50 hours for £50 pay versus doing 1 easy hour for £50, and nor should there be.
The only thing where "work hard" applies is in stuff entirely to do with yourself - put the hours in on research and learning new things that you can put to use, put the hours in on starting up a business. That's working hard for a good reason - to better your lot in life.
Working hard for your boss for pay you're unhappy with is just being inefficient.
In this day and age everyone can have access to the internet for a few quid a month and the Internet contains more information on every subject than you'd ever need to know to better your lot.
The fact is that in life some people - whether due to nature or nurture is irrelevant - don't have the ability or the will to think this way and that ambition to better themselves. That's OK. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make it unjust. Nobody is entitled to success, it should be earned, because if it's not earned then it's meaningless. In fact if you flipped the whole system over and made it so everyone succeeds automatically then by virtue of our nature as human beings we would quickly change the definition of success - just like how in some countries tanned skin is desirable as a sign of being a well travelled jet setter wealthy type, in other countries tanned skin is seen as evidence that you're poor and can't afford to keep out of the sun. There can never be a utopia situation where everybody succeeds because humans always need a heirarchy. And that's good.
If you started giving away 100ft yachts on benefits then 100ft yachts would very quickly lose their appeal as status symbols.
Nobody should expect to succeed automatically, I agree. But the system is set up in a way that means many will fail to succeed no matter what they do. Capitalism requires workers at all levels, but at each rising level the number required is reduced - and ultimately it is designed to reward a very small number of people at the top. Crucially, it also requires a certain level of unemployment, otherwise it falls apart.There is no reward for slaving away 50 hours for £50 pay versus doing 1 easy hour for £50, and nor should there be.
The only thing where "work hard" applies is in stuff entirely to do with yourself - put the hours in on research and learning new things that you can put to use, put the hours in on starting up a business. That's working hard for a good reason - to better your lot in life.
Working hard for your boss for pay you're unhappy with is just being inefficient.
In this day and age everyone can have access to the internet for a few quid a month and the Internet contains more information on every subject than you'd ever need to know to better your lot.
The fact is that in life some people - whether due to nature or nurture is irrelevant - don't have the ability or the will to think this way and that ambition to better themselves. That's OK. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make it unjust. Nobody is entitled to success, it should be earned, because if it's not earned then it's meaningless. In fact if you flipped the whole system over and made it so everyone succeeds automatically then by virtue of our nature as human beings we would quickly change the definition of success - just like how in some countries tanned skin is desirable as a sign of being a well travelled jet setter wealthy type, in other countries tanned skin is seen as evidence that you're poor and can't afford to keep out of the sun. There can never be a utopia situation where everybody succeeds because humans always need a heirarchy. And that's good.
If you started giving away 100ft yachts on benefits then 100ft yachts would very quickly lose their appeal as status symbols.
Nanook said:
TTwiggy said:
It was more to do with your use of the phrase 'nobody is stopping you'. That rather suggests an employment utopia in which every opportunity to open to everyone who seeks them. That is patently not the case.
Who is stopping you?Of all the the threads I have read on PH over the years this ranks as one of the most disturbing.
Open your eyes to the world, and understand how people are living. There is wide scale poverty and depravation amongst the working classes. A full time job isn't a guarantee of not living in poverty. I am privileged to see all aspects of society up close, stripped back and in their own surroundings. It isn't pretty. It's world of regret, loneliness, solitude and in a lot of cases substance abuse to escape the reality. It gives me a gratitude for what I do have though and the support I have. A job, a bed, a decent wage, food and above all the ability to make choices in my life.
Open your eyes to the world, and understand how people are living. There is wide scale poverty and depravation amongst the working classes. A full time job isn't a guarantee of not living in poverty. I am privileged to see all aspects of society up close, stripped back and in their own surroundings. It isn't pretty. It's world of regret, loneliness, solitude and in a lot of cases substance abuse to escape the reality. It gives me a gratitude for what I do have though and the support I have. A job, a bed, a decent wage, food and above all the ability to make choices in my life.
Alex said:
The market rewards value, not effort. Find a career that adds value, and you will be rewarded.
Could you define 'value'? 
I agree that a career choice in an industry that adds commercial value will be rewarded (I am under no illusions as to why my hedge fund manager friend earns more than I do), but a career in an area that adds societal value is rarely rewarded (outside of top surgeons, the cream of research scientists or human rights lawyers in specialist firms).
The Moose said:
I keep hearing the phrase 'gap between rich and poor is ever expanding', 'the gap between the rich and poor has never been greater' or some such however to me I can't get my head around it.
How is this so called gap measured?
By any objective measure to me the gap between the rich and poor in the U.K. (As that's where the majority of my life experience lies) has never been closer in terms of access to health care, education, mobility (both for work and leisure), nurishment etc.
Sure, maybe more private jets or yachts are sold than ever before but that's hardly a measure of the rich/poor gap.
The reason I can't get my head around it is if we look back even just 100 years the objective difference between the rich and poor certainly was greater.
The UK apparently has the lowest literacy rate, and third lowest numeracy rate in the developed world, and 3 times more low skilled young people than the leading countries. Not sure how you define the rick/poor gap but things like numeracy and literacy are massive barriers to social mobilityHow is this so called gap measured?
By any objective measure to me the gap between the rich and poor in the U.K. (As that's where the majority of my life experience lies) has never been closer in terms of access to health care, education, mobility (both for work and leisure), nurishment etc.
Sure, maybe more private jets or yachts are sold than ever before but that's hardly a measure of the rich/poor gap.
The reason I can't get my head around it is if we look back even just 100 years the objective difference between the rich and poor certainly was greater.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
What are your prospects above and beyond where you currently sit? Is the CEO's job a possibility for you? Could you imagine reaching Director level in the next 10 years? My point is that no matter how hard (or even 'smart') one works, the system will only reward a very small number of people with the very top jobs - logically that's the only way for things to work. You can circumvent this by starting your own company of course, but in many cases that will require a capital investment beyond the reach of many people, no matter how talented they are.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
So you went to university. Big whoop! So did I! Course I realised it was a bunch of toss and left after a year then pursued other things..Stilll doesn't answer why you feel like you deserve more money than me?
Because you read a load of books for a few years and went out on the piss and said words like "potentially?" as opposed to getting beasted for years?
In the words of Danny Dyer.
"NICE ONE BRUVVA!!!"
Sump said:
TheJimi said:
Don said:
TheJimi said:
Don said:
freshkid said:
How anyone can manage to go through life without encountering normal people is beyond me.
This is neither good nor bad. But it is the way it is....My circle of friends and people I associate with span everyone from people who are barely employed to famous artists, to people more posh than the queen - and my life is all the richer for it..
You, on the other hand, appear to take a certain amount of sneering pleasure from your isolation, and your good life, as you see it, compared with others that I suspect you deem beneath you.
t one one post.or Don's?
JoeMarano said:
So you went to university. Big whoop! So did I! Course I realised it was a bunch of toss and left after a year then pursued other things..
Stilll doesn't answer why you feel like you deserve more money than me?
Because you read a load of books for a few years and went out on the piss and said words like "potentially?" as opposed to getting beasted for years?
In the words of Danny Dyer.
"NICE ONE BRUVVA!!!"
This has got to be a joke. Stilll doesn't answer why you feel like you deserve more money than me?
Because you read a load of books for a few years and went out on the piss and said words like "potentially?" as opposed to getting beasted for years?
In the words of Danny Dyer.
"NICE ONE BRUVVA!!!"
You "realised it was a bunch of toss" and quit after one year. Now you're not doing as well as someone who didn't do that, and you're complaining it's unfair? You seem to be presenting it like you made the sensible choice here whilst in the same breath moaning that everyone who didn't make that "sensible choice" is now better off than you are.
Why do you feel you deserve the same money as him?
Plus not everyone wants the top jobs, some people live to work and do massive hours because that's what they enjoy, others work to live and see work as a way to earn the money to what they really want to do. Yes working harder or more hours might net them more money but they'd less free time available so are happy as they are.
ETA: That sounds really patronising but I consider myself to be in the second group.
ETA: That sounds really patronising but I consider myself to be in the second group.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Both, neither and for a gamut of other reasons both noble and ignoble. But to return to my original point – if you believe they are all getting those top jobs through nothing but hard work then you are due a shock sometime very soon.SystemParanoia said:
This is true.
You work hard, you graft, you give everything to "the company".
In thanks for your hard work and sacrifice, the management prevent/sabotage you applying for other positions within the company as "you're just to valuable to the team i hope you understand"
they also do not acknowledge request for pay rises due to you being so valuable, and the times that they do, it's"not something we control, ill ask..." ( there is never an answer )
and finally, there is never the opportunity to progress 'up' through the company, the next position up is continually held beyond you as they will not allow you a few mins per day of experiencing the role so that you can actually perform at the interview and know wtf youre talking about ( presuming that you haven't been sabotaged in getting the interview in the first place )
Apply to another company i hear you all shout...
but how will a sideways move into the same role on the same pay at another company that is probably further away and will treat you exactly the same way help. You still dont have actual experience of that next position up, and no way to get it.
hurrah for social mobility
Its just stops you, it doesn't stop everyone. I earn more than my line manager, because I asked for a pay rise in the right way to the right person. You are also allowed to apply for jobs you think your capable of but are a step up from what your doing, you just have to tailor the message to the audience, you basically need to know what they want to hear and want you to do.You work hard, you graft, you give everything to "the company".
In thanks for your hard work and sacrifice, the management prevent/sabotage you applying for other positions within the company as "you're just to valuable to the team i hope you understand"
they also do not acknowledge request for pay rises due to you being so valuable, and the times that they do, it's"not something we control, ill ask..." ( there is never an answer )
and finally, there is never the opportunity to progress 'up' through the company, the next position up is continually held beyond you as they will not allow you a few mins per day of experiencing the role so that you can actually perform at the interview and know wtf youre talking about ( presuming that you haven't been sabotaged in getting the interview in the first place )
Apply to another company i hear you all shout...
but how will a sideways move into the same role on the same pay at another company that is probably further away and will treat you exactly the same way help. You still dont have actual experience of that next position up, and no way to get it.
hurrah for social mobility
Its only your own attitude that is stopping you. You have the right attitude about wanting to progress, but id guess you've been told NO one to many times and now you don't think its possible when in reality is very much is.
Alex said:
Ruskie said:
Alex said:
The market rewards value, not effort. Find a career that adds value, and you will be rewarded.
If everyone thought like that then society really would be fked.Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff