Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
<<looks up from doing a stock take on tea, coffee and biscuit supplies>>
I'd be worried about going for a rear mid engined configuration. It immediately suggests road going race car, with the implications that has in terms of expectations with regard to ultimate handling and track performance. Much harder to package and access for servicing and repairs. A rearward engine + manual 'box also means you're likely back to American V8 + Porsche transaxle, or Audi engine + gearbox, which has all been done before - not necessarily a bad thing, but does remove the British underpinnings USP. I could see development and kit costs escalating substantially.
I'd be much more inclined to go with a front mid engined package.
The X308 front suspension (assuming that genuinely is the case from the pic, good old Ebay) looks fairly compact:
Presumably demounted from the subframe and modified to use coilovers it'd offer more design flexibility without the costs of custom parts? All assumption of course, without some working drawings to go by. It may turn out to be a nightmare to use on anything other than the original subframe.
Keeping the Jag suspension would at least allow an easy brake upgrade path from more than adequate stock, Brembos from the R1 package, and an existing AP Racing aftermarket pack (iirc).
Or, keep the IRS and custom build the front suspension - it will at least be less expensive than doing so for the back as well.
I'd be worried about going for a rear mid engined configuration. It immediately suggests road going race car, with the implications that has in terms of expectations with regard to ultimate handling and track performance. Much harder to package and access for servicing and repairs. A rearward engine + manual 'box also means you're likely back to American V8 + Porsche transaxle, or Audi engine + gearbox, which has all been done before - not necessarily a bad thing, but does remove the British underpinnings USP. I could see development and kit costs escalating substantially.
I'd be much more inclined to go with a front mid engined package.
The X308 front suspension (assuming that genuinely is the case from the pic, good old Ebay) looks fairly compact:
Presumably demounted from the subframe and modified to use coilovers it'd offer more design flexibility without the costs of custom parts? All assumption of course, without some working drawings to go by. It may turn out to be a nightmare to use on anything other than the original subframe.
Keeping the Jag suspension would at least allow an easy brake upgrade path from more than adequate stock, Brembos from the R1 package, and an existing AP Racing aftermarket pack (iirc).
Or, keep the IRS and custom build the front suspension - it will at least be less expensive than doing so for the back as well.
Time for a bit of real world thought.
What will this all cost and what would it sell for?
A £30,000 kit car which, seem to be the target, is costly. I could buy a lot of nice secondhand cars for that. How many will pay this for a kit car? This whole project only works if the TVR name is used. It is that name and what it means that will sell this car. No TVR no reason to paid that high price.
How many of you know what a Hirondel is... It was the most well know fictional car driven by the Saint in the books(others included the Furillac and Desurio). It is described as a heart-stopping red and cream sedan, weighing in at over 5,000 lbs, and requiring a light touch on the gas pedal to get anything over 3 to 4 mpg (and with Simon Templar's driving, you can be sure that those figures were often correct). With eight cylinders, this flamboyant and magnificent monster had a heady top speed and throaty exhausts that could be heard for miles. Now would you pay £30,000 for Hirondel, then build it your self?
What will this all cost and what would it sell for?
A £30,000 kit car which, seem to be the target, is costly. I could buy a lot of nice secondhand cars for that. How many will pay this for a kit car? This whole project only works if the TVR name is used. It is that name and what it means that will sell this car. No TVR no reason to paid that high price.
How many of you know what a Hirondel is... It was the most well know fictional car driven by the Saint in the books(others included the Furillac and Desurio). It is described as a heart-stopping red and cream sedan, weighing in at over 5,000 lbs, and requiring a light touch on the gas pedal to get anything over 3 to 4 mpg (and with Simon Templar's driving, you can be sure that those figures were often correct). With eight cylinders, this flamboyant and magnificent monster had a heady top speed and throaty exhausts that could be heard for miles. Now would you pay £30,000 for Hirondel, then build it your self?
Ajprice: I was always a fan of the K1 Attack, when I first saw it at the Stoneleigh show many years ago; it does solve the suspension clearance issue quite well, looks pretty good. I had high hopes for this car, but I think the high cost, poor weather-proofing and transverse rear layout wasn’t for everyone; but it seems to be doing well in the states.
Jagnet: Yes, you’re right about the mid-mounted layout. My current project has addressed everything you’ve mentioned, and I have to confess, although I have managed to keep it under an extremely tight budget, I couldn’t use British donor parts; pretty much 80% is German. Which it’s a bad thing for what I’m doing, but not really for the TVR-rebirth. And truthfully I think it should be a powerful GT car.
Are you sure that picture is from an XJ? I could be wrong, but I was sure it was MacPherson strut?
Now, if you’re including biscuit’s in your part of the deal, you’ll get 3% of “BritFire-GTR”, as long as it’s not decaf coffee!
KDIcarmad: I think it all depends on the final package; Looks, performance, usability, all play a big part in the end car. If we get it all right, then the TVR badge won’t matter, and ultimately the “BritFire-GTR” will get its own following and brand. There are plenty of kitcars currently on the market that cost considerable more than £30,000 and people still buy them.
Hirondel..Very cool.
Jagnet: Yes, you’re right about the mid-mounted layout. My current project has addressed everything you’ve mentioned, and I have to confess, although I have managed to keep it under an extremely tight budget, I couldn’t use British donor parts; pretty much 80% is German. Which it’s a bad thing for what I’m doing, but not really for the TVR-rebirth. And truthfully I think it should be a powerful GT car.
Are you sure that picture is from an XJ? I could be wrong, but I was sure it was MacPherson strut?
Now, if you’re including biscuit’s in your part of the deal, you’ll get 3% of “BritFire-GTR”, as long as it’s not decaf coffee!
KDIcarmad: I think it all depends on the final package; Looks, performance, usability, all play a big part in the end car. If we get it all right, then the TVR badge won’t matter, and ultimately the “BritFire-GTR” will get its own following and brand. There are plenty of kitcars currently on the market that cost considerable more than £30,000 and people still buy them.
Hirondel..Very cool.
KDIcarmad said:
Time for a bit of real world thought.
What will this all cost and what would it sell for?
A £30,000 kit car which, seem to be the target, is costly. I could buy a lot of nice secondhand cars for that. How many will pay this for a kit car? This whole project only works if the TVR name is used. It is that name and what it means that will sell this car. No TVR no reason to paid that high price.
How many of you know what a Hirondel is... It was the most well know fictional car driven by the Saint in the books(others included the Furillac and Desurio). It is described as a heart-stopping red and cream sedan, weighing in at over 5,000 lbs, and requiring a light touch on the gas pedal to get anything over 3 to 4 mpg (and with Simon Templar's driving, you can be sure that those figures were often correct). With eight cylinders, this flamboyant and magnificent monster had a heady top speed and throaty exhausts that could be heard for miles. Now would you pay £30,000 for Hirondel, then build it your self?
Your comment that it is time for real world thought is both apposite and timely. What will this all cost and what would it sell for?
A £30,000 kit car which, seem to be the target, is costly. I could buy a lot of nice secondhand cars for that. How many will pay this for a kit car? This whole project only works if the TVR name is used. It is that name and what it means that will sell this car. No TVR no reason to paid that high price.
How many of you know what a Hirondel is... It was the most well know fictional car driven by the Saint in the books(others included the Furillac and Desurio). It is described as a heart-stopping red and cream sedan, weighing in at over 5,000 lbs, and requiring a light touch on the gas pedal to get anything over 3 to 4 mpg (and with Simon Templar's driving, you can be sure that those figures were often correct). With eight cylinders, this flamboyant and magnificent monster had a heady top speed and throaty exhausts that could be heard for miles. Now would you pay £30,000 for Hirondel, then build it your self?
The Noble and its enthusiasts certainly represented the pinnacle of Kit Car majesty in the past IMO. More of a new build construction than most Kit Cars. Certainly I believe there are others seeking to emulate that level of design and build. However in my opinion the actual market for such outstanding vehicles at that level of price, has been reduced by the economic downturn.
I think there is a lot more promise, in a really accessible Kit Car that offers good handling, lightweight construction and a one donor build which could be sold in some volume. IF it could be finished and on the road with IVA at say £5000.
There are kits that can be constructed for that price. The MEV X5 could be on the road for significantly less, if a builder does his own build. Indeed Mev are currently offering the whole project for sale. I understand that the project is being offered at at a price which seems exceptionally good value, to me of £25,000. Stuart Mills is onto a new project which will no doubt be another winner. Like the others. A remarkably able Kit Car manufacturer.
I cannot see a better way to produce a one donor kit at that sort of price, than using the MX 5 as a base. The entire suspension and underpinnings can be retained and the spring rates and ride height left unchanged. All the interior trim can be used and the seats and so on retained. This represents major savings in both cost and complexity of sourcing to a Kit Car builder.
This must be the most cost effective way to build a kit car currently I suggest. I appreciate everyone may not like the result but to my mind it is far and way beyond the others in value and style at that price. Indeed I am not sure that there are any other kit is available built, at that price.
If there is one I would be interested to hear about it. I do think that this is the area where the mainstream Kit Car businesses need to focus. The superb examples on here at a price of £30,000 are magnificent dream machines, But for the majority that is a far as they will get.
In a world where a nice 997 C2S can be had for 30k, or a 996TT - I worry about any kit car at that price.
If you are building a sporty daily driver here, a GT if you will... It has to compete with 2nd hand Porsches, Jags, Lotii etc etc.
How long until a Nissan GTR is down towards that money?
It needs a USP that makes it stand out and, sadly in many ways, that has actually been the fact that they can be super light track cars, compared to legislation laden 'normal' cars. Even the re-branding of a TVR may not help compete in that segment!
Sorry if I have put a downer on this but any one-off design will really struggle in the day and age of throw away supercars from manufacturers like Porsche!
If you are building a sporty daily driver here, a GT if you will... It has to compete with 2nd hand Porsches, Jags, Lotii etc etc.
How long until a Nissan GTR is down towards that money?
It needs a USP that makes it stand out and, sadly in many ways, that has actually been the fact that they can be super light track cars, compared to legislation laden 'normal' cars. Even the re-branding of a TVR may not help compete in that segment!
Sorry if I have put a downer on this but any one-off design will really struggle in the day and age of throw away supercars from manufacturers like Porsche!
I do think we’re going around in circles a little bit, they are all valid points, but it looks like everyone has a different idea of what the end result is for this kitcar, how they want to use it and what is an acceptable loss in quality or design.
I think to solve this merry-go-round everyone needs to try and take a look at the entire picture and not focus on a single area, i.e. Just cost, i.e., just ease of build, i.e. one donor car.
Try and think of it as the sliders on a graphic equaliser, you move one up (say cost) then others will follow i.e. good design, weather protection, performance, but others will go down i.e. the build becomes more difficult, less people can afford it, multiple donors and parts.
Reduce the budget, and you lose weather protection, doors, practicality, drama, performance, radical design etc.
The thing is, if you only want to spend £5000-£10,000 on a track car, there are plenty to choose from, so there really isn’t any reason to develop another one, in an already crowded market; if you want something with drama, it will cost you, and not everyone can afford the Ultima, GT40 type cars, as good as they are. But I tend to agree with the OP, there really does seem to be a large gap in the kitcar market that is in-between the two.
And let’s focus on WHY people want to build a kitcar in the first place; it’s often to “scratch an itch” of wanting to use their own hands and create something they can be proud off. Just the other day PistonHeads ran a story on a Lancia Stratos Builder who found it more enjoyable to build the car than having the end result.
And finally I’d like to address the same argument, which I also agree with, is you can buy some very nice factory performance cars today for very modest money; however you need to look a little further into your “cheap” performance car; they are often extremely expensive to run if anything should go wrong, and the older the car is, the harder the life it’s had and the chances are it’s going to fail you. So your £30,000 sports car could cost you that again to run.
A freshly built kit, if done properly, would be pretty much like a new car, so shouldn’t require constant trips to the garage. And of course, just buying a car doesn’t fulfil the need to build your own.
If you want to spend £10,000 on a track car, you can there’s plenty.
If you can afford an Ultima, then I’m happy for you, but you’re also catered for.
Want to buy a used Porsche, Ferrari, TVR, Lotus, and Aston for £30,000 and can afford the running costs, then again you can (But why are you on this thread?)
Want to spend a little more, say £20,000 - £25,000; on something that has the drama of the Porsche, Ferrari’s etc., but is a fresh new design and have the enjoyment of building your own car…. Well sorry there’s nothing for you.
Now, let’s get back to planning the “Britfire-GTR”
I think to solve this merry-go-round everyone needs to try and take a look at the entire picture and not focus on a single area, i.e. Just cost, i.e., just ease of build, i.e. one donor car.
Try and think of it as the sliders on a graphic equaliser, you move one up (say cost) then others will follow i.e. good design, weather protection, performance, but others will go down i.e. the build becomes more difficult, less people can afford it, multiple donors and parts.
Reduce the budget, and you lose weather protection, doors, practicality, drama, performance, radical design etc.
The thing is, if you only want to spend £5000-£10,000 on a track car, there are plenty to choose from, so there really isn’t any reason to develop another one, in an already crowded market; if you want something with drama, it will cost you, and not everyone can afford the Ultima, GT40 type cars, as good as they are. But I tend to agree with the OP, there really does seem to be a large gap in the kitcar market that is in-between the two.
And let’s focus on WHY people want to build a kitcar in the first place; it’s often to “scratch an itch” of wanting to use their own hands and create something they can be proud off. Just the other day PistonHeads ran a story on a Lancia Stratos Builder who found it more enjoyable to build the car than having the end result.
And finally I’d like to address the same argument, which I also agree with, is you can buy some very nice factory performance cars today for very modest money; however you need to look a little further into your “cheap” performance car; they are often extremely expensive to run if anything should go wrong, and the older the car is, the harder the life it’s had and the chances are it’s going to fail you. So your £30,000 sports car could cost you that again to run.
A freshly built kit, if done properly, would be pretty much like a new car, so shouldn’t require constant trips to the garage. And of course, just buying a car doesn’t fulfil the need to build your own.
If you want to spend £10,000 on a track car, you can there’s plenty.
If you can afford an Ultima, then I’m happy for you, but you’re also catered for.
Want to buy a used Porsche, Ferrari, TVR, Lotus, and Aston for £30,000 and can afford the running costs, then again you can (But why are you on this thread?)
Want to spend a little more, say £20,000 - £25,000; on something that has the drama of the Porsche, Ferrari’s etc., but is a fresh new design and have the enjoyment of building your own car…. Well sorry there’s nothing for you.
Now, let’s get back to planning the “Britfire-GTR”
Dreamspeed said:
I do think we’re going around in circles a little bit, they are all valid points, but it looks like everyone has a different idea of what the end result is for this kitcar, how they want to use it and what is an acceptable loss in quality or design.
And that's the whole point to kit cars. Individuality. Kits allow you to build something different and to your own taste and pocket. Long may we continue to be different to one another!By the way those who would like a TVR ought to have a look at the Zolfe which I don't think has been mentioned recently
http://www.zolfe.com/
Edited by qdos on Thursday 19th July 10:25
dmulally said:
So this one is the cheapest, uses a single donor and has sold over 300 in a fairly short ammount of time?
Yes, this is the one. It’s not a bad little fun car; if this is your thing then you can do far worse. It’s just a bit too low budget for me. It’s the sort of car I’d trailer to a track on a summer’s day, thrash it around a bit, and then trailer it back. Unfortunately it’s not really the “pride and joy” I’m looking for that I want parked on my driveway on the same summer’s day giving it its Sunday polish.Now, I’m not knocking it at all, for the money I think it’s a very cleaver design, but it does highlight the problem of using one donor. The styling is compromised to accommodate the Mazda’s front suspension and engine, making it look a little cumbersome in the front, and those Mazda seats are going to rot after a few splashes of rain.
But if you like this, and this is what you want in a car, then I’ll still have respect for you that you’ve completed it, and gladly sink a few pints with you down the local, chatting about it.
Yeah, the Jaguar does appear to be double A arms, which is good! And yeah XJ6’s go for peanuts over here. I like your idea of the d type-esque Monza Lister type body, and I’d love it in metal, but the budget demands Fibre-glass.
qdos said:
Dreamspeed said:
I do think we’re going around in circles a little bit, they are all valid points, but it looks like everyone has a different idea of what the end result is for this kitcar, how they want to use it and what is an acceptable loss in quality or design.
And that's the whole point to kit cars. Individuality. Kits allow you to build something different and to your own taste and pocket. Long may we continue to be different to one another!By the way those who would like a TVR ought to have a look at the Zolfe which I don't think has been mentioned recently
http://www.zolfe.com/
Edited by qdos on Thursday 19th July 10:25
I do agree with you that there is a somewhat circuitous route to the interest expressed on here. But a least we are keeping the matter in the forefront of the enthusiasts on PH and hopefully some manufacturers will benefit accordingly.
qdos said:
And that's the whole point to kit cars. Individuality. Kits allow you to build something different and to your own taste and pocket. Long may we continue to be different to one another!
By the way those who would like a TVR ought to have a look at the Zolfe which I don't think has been mentioned recently
http://www.zolfe.com/
Yes, that’s true, in fact it’s one of the reasons I like kitcars so much; the individuality of such a car and not going with the main stream; to do something different. But if all the market has to offer, is basic track day cars, then the individuality is lost, but that’s not really the point I was making in my earlier post.By the way those who would like a TVR ought to have a look at the Zolfe which I don't think has been mentioned recently
http://www.zolfe.com/
Edited by qdos on Thursday 19th July 10:25
I was trying to answer the OP’s question, and something I agree with; I do believe there is a large gap in the kitcar Market, for usable, fresh designs that fulfil more of people’s requirements, for not much more money.
Developing such kits will only add to the variety of projects on offer and ultimately result in more individual styled cars.
I’m trying to go beyond the envelope, discuss areas that haven’t been touched before, and not necessarily going over old ground.
I’m interested in developing a new Kitcar that may cost a little more than the basic track cars, but offers drama, excitement and has a presence on the road; which isn’t a copy, has weather protection, security, affordability, reliability and usability.
Something that the average 10 year old boy would be happy to have pinned to his bedroom wall.
That is a good lookin Motor.
Any details on engine size or price ??
I skimmed the site but no details, anyone know on here, have e-mailed them for info, they are only based 8 miles from me so will try and go for a mooch!!
Very S Series TVR style!!
The company is already into Track Cars and export to the USA, sounds like they are well clued up, Exciting News!
Edited by S2Mike on Thursday 19th July 11:33
Lookin at £25k . . . ish.
Edited by S2Mike on Thursday 19th July 12:37
S2Mike said:
That is a good lookin Motor.
Any details on engine size or price ??
I skimmed the site but no details, anyone know on here, have e-mailed them for info, they are only based 8 miles from me so will try and go for a mooch!!
Very S Series TVR style!!
The company is already into Track Cars and export to the USA, sounds like they are well clued up, Exciting News!
Edited by S2Mike on Thursday 19th July 11:33
Lookin at £25k . . . ish.
Edited by S2Mike on Thursday 19th July 12:37
Zolfe have been around a while now and produce a really nice bit of kit. Yep it's Ford engined and has been developed with the track in mind. But they are road going too. I've been out on the track with them several times including the F1 circuit at Silverstone. You won't find them at the kit car shows but often they are at motorsport shows and also at events with a club that we're members of called Autoadrenalin
Regards the Kit car scene I very much agree that it offers some amazingly unique vehicles but I have to admit that these days they are getting a bit sameish with the majority being the ubiquitous Seven but there's also some great novel ideas too and fresh designs with the likes of the Razor for example lately. What you won't find is a Ford Focus or a 3 Series BM and personally I'm glad there aren't but I dare say someone out there will eventually suggest a kit to build one.
Oh, re pin ups. I had several kit cars on my wall as a teen and the first car I owned I built as a result of seeing kit cars in the national press
Regards the Kit car scene I very much agree that it offers some amazingly unique vehicles but I have to admit that these days they are getting a bit sameish with the majority being the ubiquitous Seven but there's also some great novel ideas too and fresh designs with the likes of the Razor for example lately. What you won't find is a Ford Focus or a 3 Series BM and personally I'm glad there aren't but I dare say someone out there will eventually suggest a kit to build one.
Oh, re pin ups. I had several kit cars on my wall as a teen and the first car I owned I built as a result of seeing kit cars in the national press
Edited by qdos on Thursday 19th July 23:01
qdos said:
Regards the Kit car scene I very much agree that it offers some amazingly unique vehicles but I have to admit that these days they are getting a bit sameish with the majority being the ubiquitous Seven but there's also some great novel ideas too and fresh designs with the likes of the Razor for example lately. What you won't find is a Ford Focus or a 3 Series BM and personally I'm glad there aren't but I dare say someone out there will eventually suggest a kit to build one.
It is novelty and fresh designs that once drove the kit car industry. I was looking back to the 1980's and notices how few seven style cars were. Instead you had more unique designs that offered different things. The big group of cars were the VW 1505 (never called Beetle) based car, ranging from beach buggy to the Nova. A quick note of the new TVR, you seem very stuck on this name "Britfire" I think this will not get the main stream media the project needs. A friend of put forward N.B.S. (NEW BRITISH SUPERCAR) with Britfire as the model name which I dislike as much. They made the point that Marcos fits and bring the same attention as TVR with the many stream media. By the way they drive a Bristol 411 and 603, a posh TVR?
"Britfire" was my spur of the moment suggestion way back on the early pages of this or one of the parallel threads, thinking about a British sounding name for a hypothetical replacement for TVR name if that title could not be bought from Mr Smolensky.
Then someone offered GTR as a model name. "Britfire GTR"
Sounds good we thought, but with no metal or fibreglass to stick it on we are a little way down the planning track.
Its amazing that there are so many small engineering firms working on sportscar projects, around the country, keen to fill the gap left by TVR.
Its nice to fantasize, but guys who know what they are doing are out there on the case.!
Some for many years perfecting designs, Zolfe for example.
Then someone offered GTR as a model name. "Britfire GTR"
Sounds good we thought, but with no metal or fibreglass to stick it on we are a little way down the planning track.
Its amazing that there are so many small engineering firms working on sportscar projects, around the country, keen to fill the gap left by TVR.
Its nice to fantasize, but guys who know what they are doing are out there on the case.!
Some for many years perfecting designs, Zolfe for example.
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