Nothing about HSBC, the job cuts and possibly leaving?
Discussion
FredClogs said:
banking crisis was caused by the financial instruments created to wrap up and collateralise the sub prime mortgage debt and disguise the bad debts, not the bad debts themselves and the resulting loss of interbank lending.
It was both - the repackaging just turbo-charged the debt making the whole Ponzi scheme last longer, whilst low interest rates fuelled the whole process.That's at least two car analogies.
for a product to have worth there has to be demand for it. Interbank lending an repackaged debt were driven by rising consumer demand so how do banks provide for this so Joe an Mary can get a new BMW and a 50 inch TV well lets give them a low rate loan or credit card ok how to fund it borrow off another bank or a pension fund etc ok how to get them to lend us the money hmmm lets make it an investment that looks really good like AAA great. An when all that money is spent well Joe an Mary will want a holiday so lets repackage there debt thats AAA wioth other AAA stuff an sell that on too an now we can borrow more an Joe an Mary can go to Disney.....
What if Joe an Mary had said you know what I dont need 0% credit card because I pay it off each month and my car is fine I can afford it an my TV works at the moment and you know my holiday to a 4* hotel in europe is fine I will save the 5* one on Kenya till I have cash aside.
It was not just houses it was verything we went debt mad could not get enough.
What if Joe an Mary had said you know what I dont need 0% credit card because I pay it off each month and my car is fine I can afford it an my TV works at the moment and you know my holiday to a 4* hotel in europe is fine I will save the 5* one on Kenya till I have cash aside.
It was not just houses it was verything we went debt mad could not get enough.
second division is quite an apt way of describing HSBC.
They do seem to be rather lackluster on just about anything. Loans, mortgages, currency exchange etc you can easily find a better deal or product even just a few doors down on the same high street, let alone going looking on the internet.
Customer service is pants as well, they seem to think replacing everyone with ATM's is the way forward in our branch! Want to withdraw more than the paltry £350 per day? Get on the single telephone in the corner and recite chapter and verse about your life, before some woman in a call center, with one of those nasty american-english accents they pick up from international school allows you to withdraw your money.
We did go to them for a mortgage at one point but were refused (despite a good job and 40% deposit). On a later trip to see about ISA's (and being a bit meh about their mediocre offerings) this came up. The adviser couldnt see why we were refused, then insisted on going to get us a mortgage quote anyway (despite already having a mortgage now). When she came back? Yep, massively un-competitive. They wouldn't lend us the amount needed (with 40% deposit this amounted to about 2.5x salary) and the interest on what they would was double what we got elsewhere.
Yeah no thanks.
I only bank with them because its basically the bank account I signed up for for uni as you got a free rail card for the time you were there and I haven't been bothered to change. Still got a graduate account with £1500 interest free over draft though...not that it gets used anymore (though its nice to know its there).
They do seem to be rather lackluster on just about anything. Loans, mortgages, currency exchange etc you can easily find a better deal or product even just a few doors down on the same high street, let alone going looking on the internet.
Customer service is pants as well, they seem to think replacing everyone with ATM's is the way forward in our branch! Want to withdraw more than the paltry £350 per day? Get on the single telephone in the corner and recite chapter and verse about your life, before some woman in a call center, with one of those nasty american-english accents they pick up from international school allows you to withdraw your money.
We did go to them for a mortgage at one point but were refused (despite a good job and 40% deposit). On a later trip to see about ISA's (and being a bit meh about their mediocre offerings) this came up. The adviser couldnt see why we were refused, then insisted on going to get us a mortgage quote anyway (despite already having a mortgage now). When she came back? Yep, massively un-competitive. They wouldn't lend us the amount needed (with 40% deposit this amounted to about 2.5x salary) and the interest on what they would was double what we got elsewhere.
Yeah no thanks.
I only bank with them because its basically the bank account I signed up for for uni as you got a free rail card for the time you were there and I haven't been bothered to change. Still got a graduate account with £1500 interest free over draft though...not that it gets used anymore (though its nice to know its there).
FredClogs said:
It wasn't millionaire casino bankers who mis-sold PPI was it? It wasn't CEOs and CFOs who started flogging interest rate swap contracts to corner shop owners and hairdressers was it?
I am not saying that every bank cashier through out the land is corrupt and deserving of bad fortune but they all know that there working in a corrupt and nefarious industry. Not everyone that works at Wonga or Phillip Morris or Peugeot is an a
hole but the end product is bad for society and they know it.
Out of interest, who do you bank with? Who is your pension with? And which consumer goods do you own? I am not saying that every bank cashier through out the land is corrupt and deserving of bad fortune but they all know that there working in a corrupt and nefarious industry. Not everyone that works at Wonga or Phillip Morris or Peugeot is an a
hole but the end product is bad for society and they know it.You seem to be under an impression that you're on some elevated "moral" plane... But I suspect you might be surprised.
FredClogs said:
Yes, let's not use a brush. let's use a tar cannon and tar them from the citadel of righteousness up on this hill of purity... No one really gives a st when nurses are laid of, have their hours cut and [b]take year on year below inflation pay rises[\b]. No one really gives too much of a st about anyone except their clique, but the banks deserve a kicking (even if it's from anonymous no marks on the internet in a car forum only a dozen people ever read) and I for one wish to make a stand and say... I have a dream...
poor lambst when nurses are laid of, have their hours cut and [b]take year on year below inflation pay rises[\b]. No one really gives too much of a st about anyone except their clique, but the banks deserve a kicking (even if it's from anonymous no marks on the internet in a car forum only a dozen people ever read) and I for one wish to make a stand and say... I have a dream...Edited by FredClogs on Wednesday 10th June 09:04
at least they get a year on year below inflation pay rise... I would guess the rest of us don't even get a passing thought for a payrise.
Du1point8 said:
FredClogs said:
Du1point8 said:
FredClogs said:
Du1point8 said:
eccles said:
Du1point8 said:
If you work retail and on the front line, you get no such decent payout as its a standard one.
Ah, Bless, lowly bank staff get'normal' levels of redundancy payout. So what.I am not saying that every bank cashier through out the land is corrupt and deserving of bad fortune but they all know that there working in a corrupt and nefarious industry. Not everyone that works at Wonga or Phillip Morris or Peugeot is an a
hole but the end product is bad for society and they know it.Everyone who works for the public sector knows this goes on and they know it... the only thing more corrupt is the UN.
t when nurses are laid of, have their hours cut and take year on year below inflation pay rises. No one really gives too much of a st about anyone except their clique, but the banks deserve a kicking (even if it's from anonymous no marks on the internet in a car forum only a dozen people ever read) and I for one wish to make a stand and say... I have a dream...Edited by FredClogs on Wednesday 10th June 09:04
Retail Branches
Government in the form of Labour
Joe Public who don't understand they have to pay back what they borrow.
Few top level Retail managers.
So why do you and the rest blame traders, investment banks, corporate banks, etc? Hell you even blame Hedge funds that have nothing to do with banks..
A bank in its basic format is split into 3 companies, Retail, Corporate and Investment, they are separate entities and are not in anyway associated with the each other.
It makes you look like an uneducated idiot blaming the 2nd group and demanding their bonuses, etc for problems caused by the first group, why is that? Its a pure envy tax of taking something from someone that had nothing to do with it.
If that is the case why don't we as the public demand all the screw ups of the public service back out of all public sector people, simple things like the f
k up of the NHS Computer system that cost £10 Billion and not one person was held accountable or jailed for that fk up... as NHS is public sector, why don't we make the police, fireman, etc, etc... pay for the fk up of the NHS?Its exactly what is happing with Investment sector due to Retail, even worse with hedge funds that just get blamed anyway for s
ts and giggles, so get their pay/bonus taxed for no reason. Same Hedge funds that are making most of Joe Publics pension better to give them more money, but that doesnt matter, if a hedge fund person makes the fund £1 billion for Joe Public, then lets fk him over and take his bonus for his hard work.You lot are strange people.
Not so many years ago the village bank manager, vicar and shop owner were all held in esteem. How times change with the shop keeper all but extinct, clergy all but extinct and the bank manager, we are told, about to make a come back.
Sheepshanks said:
Flip Martian said:
Some of the posts in here do nothing at all to dispel the stereotype "banker" people have in their heads. Fancy that.
I think a lot of PHers are bankers.Do those people, who likely live in normal houses, drive normal cars and live a normal life really deserve to be made redundant?
The stereotype banker is such a small minority in the city (remember HSBC are going to cull nationally) but so many people apply the term to anyone who works in the industry.
Timmy40 said:
TTwiggy said:
Once again I see reference to 'Joe Public' (or Average Joe, if you prefer) 'not paying back what he borrowed.
I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
That's because of QE and a very swift response in terms of lowering the base rate. 'Joe' by and large would still be f**ked if the base rate retuned to 4% and lending rates to 6-7%.I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
fblm said:
FredClogs said:
...the banking crisis was caused by the financial instruments created to wrap up and collateralise the sub prime mortgage debt and disguise the bad debts, not the bad debts themselves and the resulting loss of interbank lending.
Oh dear. 
Don't be brought down to his level, he will only beat you with experience...
TTwiggy said:
Timmy40 said:
TTwiggy said:
Once again I see reference to 'Joe Public' (or Average Joe, if you prefer) 'not paying back what he borrowed.
I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
That's because of QE and a very swift response in terms of lowering the base rate. 'Joe' by and large would still be f**ked if the base rate retuned to 4% and lending rates to 6-7%.I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
Timmy40 said:
TTwiggy said:
Timmy40 said:
TTwiggy said:
Once again I see reference to 'Joe Public' (or Average Joe, if you prefer) 'not paying back what he borrowed.
I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
That's because of QE and a very swift response in terms of lowering the base rate. 'Joe' by and large would still be f**ked if the base rate retuned to 4% and lending rates to 6-7%.I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
TTwiggy said:
My point was that once again on a thread of this nature we have people who are apparently 'at the coal face' of the finance industry blaming it all on the little people who had the audacity to want to buy a house or put a holiday on a credit card. Yet these people did not default on their mortgages (certainly not in any significant amount). Blaming them is exactly the same sort of innacurate kneejerk response complained about by those in the banking industry, who feel unfairly targetted.
It wasn't the little people at fault it was the incompetent, short termist, irresponsible idiots they elected, who then presided over a regulatory regieme deliberately designed to stoke an asset bubble based GDP boom that they took credit for, and then blame shifted onto the bankers when it inevitably blew up. Oddly in their rush to blame the bankers the politicians seem to completely forget the Governments role in it all, despite taking credit for the growth during the boom. The media do nothing to challenge that view.
Timmy40 said:
TTwiggy said:
My point was that once again on a thread of this nature we have people who are apparently 'at the coal face' of the finance industry blaming it all on the little people who had the audacity to want to buy a house or put a holiday on a credit card. Yet these people did not default on their mortgages (certainly not in any significant amount). Blaming them is exactly the same sort of innacurate kneejerk response complained about by those in the banking industry, who feel unfairly targetted.
It wasn't the little people at fault it was the incompetent, short termist, irresponsible idiots they elected, who then presided over a regulatory regieme deliberately designed to stoke an asset bubble based GDP boom that they took credit for, and then blame shifted onto the bankers when it inevitably blew up. Oddly in their rush to blame the bankers the politicians seem to completely forget the Governments role in it all, despite taking credit for the growth during the boom. The media do nothing to challenge that view.
TTwiggy said:
Once again I see reference to 'Joe Public' (or Average Joe, if you prefer) 'not paying back what he borrowed.
I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
Don't forget the financial crisis wasn't really a UK housing story but a US one. In 2008/9 and 2010 US 'foreclosures' hit 3 million a year, or roughly 3% of all households, despite countless federal assistance and refinancing programs. To put that in perspective to your experience, in the UK in the early 90's, repossesions peaked around 70,000 or 'just' 0.3% of households. More recently UK repossesions peaked around 40,000 a year or 0.15%. I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
TTwiggy said:
Timmy40 said:
TTwiggy said:
My point was that once again on a thread of this nature we have people who are apparently 'at the coal face' of the finance industry blaming it all on the little people who had the audacity to want to buy a house or put a holiday on a credit card. Yet these people did not default on their mortgages (certainly not in any significant amount). Blaming them is exactly the same sort of innacurate kneejerk response complained about by those in the banking industry, who feel unfairly targetted.
It wasn't the little people at fault it was the incompetent, short termist, irresponsible idiots they elected, who then presided over a regulatory regieme deliberately designed to stoke an asset bubble based GDP boom that they took credit for, and then blame shifted onto the bankers when it inevitably blew up. Oddly in their rush to blame the bankers the politicians seem to completely forget the Governments role in it all, despite taking credit for the growth during the boom. The media do nothing to challenge that view.
Banking but really on retail for allowing people to borrow under advisement of Labour, because everyone deserves the right to have their own home.
Government - Ed Balls was chief bartender at the most out-of-control cheap debt party in living memory. Not only did the Brown/Balls regulatory system fail, but their cheap debt policy (aided and abetted by Sir Mervyn King) led the whole UK economy into a bubble.
Joe public - for lying and going in 100% mortgages and paying back on the never never, whilst not figuring out how they are going to pay for it.
Anyway, you can say what BS you want but I have mentioned them and several others have, you choose not to see it then fine.
TTwiggy said:
Timmy40 said:
TTwiggy said:
Once again I see reference to 'Joe Public' (or Average Joe, if you prefer) 'not paying back what he borrowed.
I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
That's because of QE and a very swift response in terms of lowering the base rate. 'Joe' by and large would still be f**ked if the base rate retuned to 4% and lending rates to 6-7%.I don't claim to understand every nuance of the banking crisis, but I don't recall a sudden outbreak of reposessions (such as those I saw when I was an estate agent in the 1990s) of houses owned by 'Joe'.
t you do not need. When all thoes interest free offers came to an end so did the spending and growth an when rates hit home people stopped paying back on mass. Look at empty housing estates in ireland or see stats on credit card debt. You ever wondered how it got to be the 3 series out sold the mondeo etc Joe and Mary wanted the good life now. Car supermarkets pay deposit on credit card drive away week payment insurance weekly too then pay for a holiday on another credit card consolidate with a loan and start again. Why do you think Wonga exists. Demand pure an simple. Some people can't ever stop spending no matter how much it costs. There lies your crisis. Now s like northern rock built a business model on this as did hbos. RBS was run by a mad man who everyone feared (an I can tell you no one at that bank thinks it's thew fault they are delluded) all of this was about driving up consumer demand and consumers loved it. Till it all fell down then they want to blame the banks awwww reallyTTwiggy said:
It always seems to come back to 'well if the great unwashed didn't all want a 50inch telly and a new iphone, we wouldn't be in this mess.'
It wasn't that. There were people on £25k securing £1m worth of BTL mortgages, up and down the land all people talked about was how much money they were making from houses, it was a national obsession. Of course that was fine because the people pocketing £500k in capital gains for doing precisely feck all were hard working people totally unlike immoral bankers getting huge bonuses. I remember when telling one idiot that he might want to be a little more careful in terms of his property activities that "house prices couldn't fall because the Government wouldn't let them" such was the magical power of the Great Gordon Iron Chancellor of New Labour.
You had Astons and new Mercs appearing on streets of terraced houses, people decided to start buying in Romania, Spain, everyone was rich! It was an economic miracle....except of course it had to end.
And when it all went tits up whose fault was it? Not the politicians they just made the rules, not the public they just borrowed the money ( willingly as adults ), no it was all down to investment bankers ( who have/had feck all to do with retail ).
Gecko1978 said:
Sorry TTwiggy but I can tell that Joe and Mary public did not just buy a 400 tv. They went on a credit binge the figures are truly huge how much house hold debt is on unsecured st you do not need. When all thoes interest free offers came to an end so did the spending and growth an when rates hit home people stopped paying back on mass. Look at empty housing estates in ireland or see stats on credit card debt. You ever wondered how it got to be the 3 series out sold the mondeo etc Joe and Mary wanted the good life now. Car supermarkets pay deposit on credit card drive away week payment insurance weekly too then pay for a holiday on another credit card consolidate with a loan and start again. Why do you think Wonga exists. Demand pure an simple. Some people can't ever stop spending no matter how much it costs. There lies your crisis. Now s like northern rock built a business model on this as did hbos. RBS was run by a mad man who everyone feared (an I can tell you no one at that bank thinks it's thew fault they are delluded) all of this was about driving up consumer demand and consumers loved it. Till it all fell down then they want to blame the banks awwww really
You seem to be conflating two very different groups of people here. Those who are using car supermarkets and payday loans are low earners who are simply struggling to make ends meet. Sure, some of them are living beyond their means, but we have a huge number of people - many of whom are in receipt of working tax credits – for whom the monthly take home is never going to cover the costs, both planned for and unplanned, that life throws at people. This is a social issue and one that requires government planning to sort out and is not really the fault of the banking industry, not the responsibility of the banking industry to sort out.t you do not need. When all thoes interest free offers came to an end so did the spending and growth an when rates hit home people stopped paying back on mass. Look at empty housing estates in ireland or see stats on credit card debt. You ever wondered how it got to be the 3 series out sold the mondeo etc Joe and Mary wanted the good life now. Car supermarkets pay deposit on credit card drive away week payment insurance weekly too then pay for a holiday on another credit card consolidate with a loan and start again. Why do you think Wonga exists. Demand pure an simple. Some people can't ever stop spending no matter how much it costs. There lies your crisis. Now s like northern rock built a business model on this as did hbos. RBS was run by a mad man who everyone feared (an I can tell you no one at that bank thinks it's thew fault they are delluded) all of this was about driving up consumer demand and consumers loved it. Till it all fell down then they want to blame the banks awwww reallyThe other group bought into the dream. The dream of getting rich off a rising property market funded by cheap BTL mortgages. This dream contunues today with BTLs still largely as widely available as they were before the crash. It was retail banking that sold this dream and made it possible. People are greedy, I'll give you that (if they weren't there would be no bankers). To expect them to turn down the chance to becone 'rich' is naive.
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