Electric fence causing Broadband to drop out?

[dipstic]

We have a mains powered electric chicken fence in our back garden. After we've been living here for two years, two of our neighbours (we live in a row of four houses in the middle of nowhere), are now saying that their BT broadband keeps on dropping out and requiring re-booting of the modem and they have been told by a friend who used to work for Openreach that it can be caused by electric fences producing an electro magnetic pulse. We don't have any problems with our broadband (also BT) and neither does our neighbour on our other side, who also has an electric chicken fence.
We know the easy answer is to turn the fences off and see if that makes any difference, but it's difficult to believe what our neighbour says (she complains that the noise of our fishpond is disturbing them, our chickens wake up her husband - we haven't got a cockerel -, and our newly planted hedge has aphids in it - get the drift!). When she first complained about it, our fence was off most of the day during the recent hot weather so our chickens could free range round the garden and get some shade, but the other neighbour's fence was on all the time.
We have overhead BT and electricity cables coming into the house. We have spoken to the fence manufacturers, who say that it could cause problems if it's too close to underground cables, but can't understand why, in our situation, it would effect the broadband.
Has anyone else had any problems like this, and can prove that this is a known problem? She is asking us to switch our fence off during the day when she is trying to work, but we and our other neighbours are not prepared to feed the fox who hangs around in the field we all back on to.
We are quite a distance from the exchange, we only have about 1mb speed, which is all we are expected to get according to BT, could she be overloading her system by trying to send vast emails (pictures attached, etc), or, alternatively, could she have a problem with her house wiring (not a good earth?).
Are there any electro magnetic engineers or broadband engineers out there who have had experience of this before we tell our neighbours to go suck eggs (but not ours, she expects to get them for free).

[Jayzee]

Apparently this is true. Living in the middle of nowhere myself, surrounded by farmland and electric fences, we too have the same problem. Switching off the nearest fence did indeed solve the problem.

There's a terminology for the interference - just can't remember what it is.

[TheHeretic]

Enclose your wifi router with a faraday cage, that should protect you from an EMP.

[dipstic]

Jayzee said:

Apparently this is true. Living in the middle of nowhere myself, surrounded by farmland and electric fences, we too have the same problem. Switching off the nearest fence did indeed solve the problem.

There's a terminology for the interference - just can't remember what it is.

What we can't understand is that we don't have a problem and nor do our other neighbours with a fence, so how can it be only affecting the neighbours who live 30+ metres away from our fence and not us as well?

[TonyRPH]

Do you have a product link to the electric fence in question?

It would be interesting to see if any technical details are provided, as I'm wondering if it uses some kind of high frequency generator to provide the voltage to the fence.

If so, depending on frequency and amplitude, I could see how this *may* interfere with a wireless connection, rather than the broadband itself.

Does your neighbour use wireless only, and if so, could she be persuaded to try a wired connection to see if that solves the problem temporarily?

[malman]

They are basically talking about this

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm

you can check with the AM Radio trick. Electric fences are usually pulse based (not sure on chicken fences) so you should hear the pulse on the radio at the same time you hear it at the fence controller if its in the right frequency to cause issues. If you then check the cable run to your DSL router and see whether you can still hear the pulse with the radio

[dipstic]

TonyRPH said:

Do you have a product link to the electric fence in question?

It would be interesting to see if any technical details are provided, as I'm wondering if it uses some kind of high frequency generator to provide the voltage to the fence.

If so, depending on frequency and amplitude, I could see how this *may* interfere with a wireless connection, rather than the broadband itself.

Does your neighbour use wireless only, and if so, could she be persuaded to try a wired connection to see if that solves the problem temporarily?

Rutland ESM 402 energiser and 25m of electric fence erected in a oblong
Neighbour uses wired connection as she says her wireless is not very good in her house (something about a RSJ causing issues with wifi)
I have no idea what pc/laptop she has but says her BT router is about 18 months old
http://www.rutland-electric-fencing.co.uk/PageProd...

[Jayzee]

malman said:

They are basically talking about this

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm

you can check with the AM Radio trick. Electric fences are usually pulse based (not sure on chicken fences) so you should hear the pulse on the radio at the same time you hear it at the fence controller if its in the right frequency to cause issues. If you then check the cable run to your DSL router and see whether you can still hear the pulse with the radio

This ^^^ is the terminology that escaped me - couldn't remember it for the life of me!

It's a weird one, it affected me and a couple of neighbours, but not the person with said fence!

Anyway, the compromise we struck was that it was switched off at certain times of the day - sorry OP, not what you wanted to hear. Maybe a different situation to yours?

[Pooky67]

Just because electric fences (ANY electrical item as a matter of fact) can cause REIN, does not make it the cause of the issues in this case. They should report their problems to BT and get a broadband engineer out.

[dipstic]

Just tried the 'radio test' (The only radio we have is a mains powered clock radio with MW), but when it was plugged into our mains and tuned into 612, it picked up the click of the energiser (didn't make any difference when we turned the fence off, only stopped when the energiser was off). We then tuned the car radio to 612, and it didn't pick the inteference up, and we plugged the clock radio into a mains converter in my company van, and that didn't pick up any clicking. So to summarise, we only get the interference when using our household mains to power the radio, so if we have done this right, and are not being complete prats, are we right in assuming that if our radio is plugged into our neighbour's mains, it won't pick up the interference either. Is it only showing when plugged into our mains because the electric pulse is in our mains system. Even though we turned our fence off, our neighbour on the other side still have their fence running and it didn't pick that up.
The plan for tomorrow is to ask the (nice) neighbour with the other electric fence to let us plug the radio into their mains and see if it picks up either their fence or ours, and if it isn't effected by our fence, then go to the moaning neighbour and plug it into their mains and hopefully there will be no clicking noise and we can prove that she isn't getting any interference from our fence at her property.
Looks like we need to borrow a battery operated radio to be sure there is no interference in our house and then we can be confident to take it next door and hopefully prove our innocence. We do feel a bit like we are playing into her hands by making a fuss as she is a strange woman, a little loose with the truth, and is probably enjoying seeing us worrying about this, as we don't even know that she's definitely having problems with her broadband, just seeing an excuse to exercise a little control on those around her. For example, my wife has decided to give up work and she made a comment to my wife along the lines of "I don't really have a problem with the fact that you don't work". What's it to do with her? Should we have asked her permission?

[lestag]

in the dialup days... I suspect this will still work for broadband , assuming adsl or similar using copper lines
For the neighbour
Pick up the phone and listen to the dial tone.
If it is an electric fence you should hear the pulses of interference
Secondly if you hear crackling on the phone line, then you have an issue with water in the joints somewhere. Typically for me it was a joint under control of the local Telco, up a powerpole somewhere nearby

ETA: yeah what pookey said

Edited by lestag on Saturday 3rd August 04:32

[hidetheelephants]

TheHeretic said:

Enclose your wifi router with a faraday cage, that should protect you from an EMP.

You're a bad man.

[voyds9]

Buy her 50m of cat5.

[CraigyMc]

voyds9 said:

Buy her 50m of cat5.

I'd suggest poly rope. Less chance of it snapping in noose form.

C

[TonyRPH]

dipstic said:

Just tried the 'radio test' (The only radio we have is a mains powered clock radio with MW), but when it was plugged into our mains and tuned into 612, it picked up the click of the energiser (didn't make any difference when we turned the fence off, only stopped when the energiser was off). We then tuned the car radio to 612, and it didn't pick the inteference up, and we plugged the clock radio into a mains converter in my company van, and that didn't pick up any clicking. So to summarise, we only get the interference when using our household mains to power the radio, so if we have done this right, and are not being complete prats, are we right in assuming that if our radio is plugged into our neighbour's mains, it won't pick up the interference either. Is it only showing when plugged into our mains because the electric pulse is in our mains system. Even though we turned our fence off, our neighbour on the other side still have their fence running and it didn't pick that up.
The plan for tomorrow is to ask the (nice) neighbour with the other electric fence to let us plug the radio into their mains and see if it picks up either their fence or ours, and if it isn't effected by our fence, then go to the moaning neighbour and plug it into their mains and hopefully there will be no clicking noise and we can prove that she isn't getting any interference from our fence at her property.
Looks like we need to borrow a battery operated radio to be sure there is no interference in our house and then we can be confident to take it next door and hopefully prove our innocence. We do feel a bit like we are playing into her hands by making a fuss as she is a strange woman, a little loose with the truth, and is probably enjoying seeing us worrying about this, as we don't even know that she's definitely having problems with her broadband, just seeing an excuse to exercise a little control on those around her. For example, my wife has decided to give up work and she made a comment to my wife along the lines of "I don't really have a problem with the fact that you don't work". What's it to do with her? Should we have asked her permission?

I had no idea that REIN could interfere with ADSL in this way.

OP, even though the radio may not pickup any interference in her house, you need to consider a couple of factors.

Your fence could be acting as a large (transmitting) antenna.

The telephone line will also be acting as an antenna (assuming there is a part of it that isn't twisted pair - as I always thought twisted pair was quite immune to interference).

So, although the interference may not be audible in her house, it could be having an effect on the lines outside her house.

Interference is a funny thing - signals can sometimes be quite directional, which is why it may affect her but not you for example.

I'm not quite sure what happens when you turn your fence off e.g. is is totally isolated from the energiser?

Even the energiser itself could be acting as a transmitter, but if that was the case, I would have thought your problems would be far greater than this.

I would also have thought that the energiser has passed some emissions tests as well.

I presume it's not faulty in some way?

[malman]

TonyRPH said:

I had no idea that REIN could interfere with ADSL in this way.

OP, even though the radio may not pickup any interference in her house, you need to consider a couple of factors.

Your fence could be acting as a large (transmitting) antenna.

The telephone line will also be acting as an antenna (assuming there is a part of it that isn't twisted pair - as I always thought twisted pair was quite immune to interference).

So, although the interference may not be audible in her house, it could be having an effect on the lines outside her house.

Interference is a funny thing - signals can sometimes be quite directional, which is why it may affect her but not you for example.

I'm not quite sure what happens when you turn your fence off e.g. is is totally isolated from the energiser?

Even the energiser itself could be acting as a transmitter, but if that was the case, I would have thought your problems would be far greater than this.

I would also have thought that the energiser has passed some emissions tests as well.

I presume it's not faulty in some way?

I know what you are saying but if her router is seeing line noise the radio should pick it up at her router/line if his fence is the cause.

The trouble with ordinary radios is they have AGC so its hard to tell if its getting stronger or weaker signal when you walk the line. I would only use it as a possible indication of a problem. Unless he can walk up to her router and definitely hear something. He would then need to find out if it was his energiser or not - turn it off and re-do the radio check should clear that one up.

BT have meters with manually adjustable gain so they can track this stuff down. Getting someone from BT out to might be a challenge though and I would suggest he leaves that to her as its her broadband. I would be tempted to tell her to just report it anyway or blame it on sun spots

[TonyRPH]

malman said:

I know what you are saying but if her router is seeing line noise the radio should pick it up at her router/line if his fence is the cause.

The trouble with ordinary radios is they have AGC so its hard to tell if its getting stronger or weaker signal when you walk the line. I would only use it as a possible indication of a problem. Unless he can walk up to her router and definitely hear something. He would then need to find out if it was his energiser or not - turn it off and re-do the radio check should clear that one up.

BT have meters with manually adjustable gain so they can track this stuff down. Getting someone from BT out to might be a challenge though and I would suggest he leaves that to her as its her broadband. I would be tempted to tell her to just report it anyway or blame it on sun spots

I agree with you on all counts.

I was just throwing some ideas about.

[buggalugs]

If rebooting her router fixes it that would suggest to me that she needs a new router. If it was just line interference then the router will reconnect by its self without prompting.

Its a bit of a mare cause there could be a million reasons why her youtube buffers or whatever, you don't want to get involved in this crazy woman's IT issue really.

[dipstic]

buggalugs said:

If rebooting her router fixes it that would suggest to me that she needs a new router. If it was just line interference then the router will reconnect by its self without prompting.

Its a bit of a mare cause there could be a million reasons why her youtube buffers or whatever, you don't want to get involved in this crazy woman's IT issue really.

Thanks for all the comments.Spent a couple of hours cutting grass around the chicken run,checked earth stake and connections and have decided to let the neighbour decide what she wants to do next (get a bt engineer out if she wants too).
There are too many possible causes that could bear no relation to our electric fence.

[CraigyMc]

dipstic said:

buggalugs said:

If rebooting her router fixes it that would suggest to me that she needs a new router. If it was just line interference then the router will reconnect by its self without prompting.

Its a bit of a mare cause there could be a million reasons why her youtube buffers or whatever, you don't want to get involved in this crazy woman's IT issue really.

Thanks for all the comments.Spent a couple of hours cutting grass around the chicken run,checked earth stake and connections and have decided to let the neighbour decide what she wants to do next (get a bt engineer out if she wants too).
There are too many possible causes that could bear no relation to our electric fence.

To be honest, if your energizer meets CE standards then it meets the standards for EM release. If not, where on earth did it come from?

Your neighbours' broadband problem is precisely that: her problem.

C