V5/C Lost DVLA Penalty £80
Discussion
Hi
In July I purchased a van and I was handed the V5C slip by the seller which I been returned on the same day. Couple months later I am now receiving letters from DVLA about a failed declaration of V5C as the vehicle is no longer in my possession.
They have asked to me provide proof and I made a copy of the original V5C before sending it now even then at this juncture they are not happy with the evidence. They are demanding that i have to pay the £80. I strongly disagree with their decision as it was not my fault if my post went missing.
Is there anything I can do to challenge this late licensing penalty.
In July I purchased a van and I was handed the V5C slip by the seller which I been returned on the same day. Couple months later I am now receiving letters from DVLA about a failed declaration of V5C as the vehicle is no longer in my possession.
They have asked to me provide proof and I made a copy of the original V5C before sending it now even then at this juncture they are not happy with the evidence. They are demanding that i have to pay the £80. I strongly disagree with their decision as it was not my fault if my post went missing.
Is there anything I can do to challenge this late licensing penalty.
momon121 said:
I am somehow put off by appealing as on the otherhand they state that even after an appeal the decision may remain the same
If you don't appeal it you'll never know. If it's too much trouble just send them £40 & whatever additional money they subsequently might ask you for.momon121 said:
In July I purchased a van and I was handed the V5C slip by the seller which I been returned on the same day.
I assume you mean the V5C/2 (New keeper's green slip). However the bit in bold doesn't make any sense.momon121 said:
Couple months later I am now receiving letters from DVLA about a failed declaration of V5C as the vehicle is no longer in my possession.
If I have understood this correctly, after buying the van you only kept it for a few weeks before selling/disposing of it. Correct?In which case I don't understand why you mention the purchase month above: it's irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Or should your first sentence have read that you sold the van and handed the V5C/2 to the purchaser?
Clarification required.
momon121 said:
They have asked to me provide proof and I made a copy of the original V5C before sending it now even then at this juncture they are not happy with the evidence. They are demanding that i have to pay the £80. I strongly disagree with their decision as was not my fault if my post went missing.
Did you obtain proof of posting? If not, that was a grave error because you have nothing with which to back up your claim.That said, it may not be RM that is at fault here. The DVLA are quite capable of losing mail internally.
It has admitted under a FoIA request that it has no system of tracking even those items which are sent by signed for mail.
DVLA said:
4. How many V5C's (change of keeper) sent by Recorded or Special delivery have been lost internally after being signed for by a DVLA post room?
This information is not held. DVLA would only become aware of lost mail when contacted by a customer. Should this arise, the matter would be investigated on a case by case basis, by checking whether there has been recent activity on the vehicle record. If the correspondence was sent recently the mail waiting to be processed would be checked.
The key question therefore is whether the person you sold it to has received a V5C in their name and, if so, on what date it was issued and the vehicle record updated.This information is not held. DVLA would only become aware of lost mail when contacted by a customer. Should this arise, the matter would be investigated on a case by case basis, by checking whether there has been recent activity on the vehicle record. If the correspondence was sent recently the mail waiting to be processed would be checked.
This can be found under 'Official use only' at the foot of the inside page. It is to the right of the Doc.Ref. No. If it were me I would be contacting them to obtain that information.
Ask them to confirm it in an e-mail. Then compare it with the 'Date of sale or transfer' on your copy of the original V5C.
momon121 said:
Is there anything I can do to challenge this late licensing penalty.
You can appeal the decision but, as the DVLA acts as judge, jury, and executioner in its own cause, it is may well have no effect.The only plus point is that it will demonstrate that you have exhausted the process should it end up in court.
Have a look at this (in particular post #18) - http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/showthread.php...
DVLA failed so often that it changed tack and began treating the penalty as a civil debt in a county court.
That is because decisions there rest on the balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt in a magistrates court.
It doesn't alter the arguments involved though. It's your call whether to opt for a quiet life or stick to your guns.
You might also find it of interest to read the DVLA letter posted in this thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
What really baffles me though is why, in today's digital age, people continue to send change of keeper notifications by snail mail.
There is a far better alternative - https://www.gov.uk/sold-bought-vehicle/y/no/sold-i...
The automatic e-mail confirmation is positive proof that it has been received.
KevinCamaroSS said:
In 40 years of owning cars and bikes (40+) I have never had a problem with DVLA. I always send paperwork Special Delivery and to the correct postcode.
You're fortunate, 14 millions items of mail go missing per annum.Top tip, never post anything important on the Friday before a bank holiday, it's more likely to go missing (My OH runs a Post Office)
For clarification i purchased the van on the 25/07 and posted the v5c part 9 on the same day. I dont understand if DVLA never sends their mail recorded delivery i dont understand why we have to do it. I have the photocopy of the part 9 which I made a copy before sending it.
I have spoken to the enforcement centre and they are sending me a dispute form which will take 7 days. The letter I recieved yesterday about fine it was dated on the 11th Nov but I recieved it on the 16th November
I have spoken to the enforcement centre and they are sending me a dispute form which will take 7 days. The letter I recieved yesterday about fine it was dated on the 11th Nov but I recieved it on the 16th November
momon121 said:
For clarification i purchased the van on the 25/07 and posted the v5c part 9 on the same day. I dont understand if DVLA never sends their mail recorded delivery i dont understand why we have to do it. I have the photocopy of the part 9 which I made a copy before sending it.
I have spoken to the enforcement centre and they are sending me a dispute form which will take 7 days. The letter I recieved yesterday about fine it was dated on the 11th Nov but I recieved it on the 16th November
That's not really clarification. Surely the purchase is not in dispute, as the DVLA has written to you as the RK. It appears to be the sale and subsequent action where you have slipped up.I have spoken to the enforcement centre and they are sending me a dispute form which will take 7 days. The letter I recieved yesterday about fine it was dated on the 11th Nov but I recieved it on the 16th November
momon121 said:
For clarification i purchased the van on the 25/07 and posted the v5c part 9 on the same day. I dont understand if DVLA never sends their mail recorded delivery i dont understand why we have to do it. I have the photocopy of the part 9 which I made a copy before sending it.
I have spoken to the enforcement centre and they are sending me a dispute form which will take 7 days. The letter I recieved yesterday about fine it was dated on the 11th Nov but I recieved it on the 16th November
But your fine isn't about that?I have spoken to the enforcement centre and they are sending me a dispute form which will take 7 days. The letter I recieved yesterday about fine it was dated on the 11th Nov but I recieved it on the 16th November
Your fine is for not sending the V5 off when you sold the van. Nothing to do with when you bought it. It even says so right there in your letter you got.
but i did send it, because i do not have postage to prove it i did send the v5 on the same day i bought my van. Before i received this letter i did write to them that I send the v5 back in July but they are not interested.
They are millions that send v5 using RM and I am sure not everyone keeps proof of postage
They are millions that send v5 using RM and I am sure not everyone keeps proof of postage
Exactly. Part 9 is the yellow V5C/3 which the RK is required to send to DVLA to notify the sale or transfer to a motor trader, insurer, or dismantler.
Nothing whatsoever to do with purchasing a vehicle. Yet another thread where the original post contains incorrect information which then has to be teased out.
As for this
Recorded Delivery (RD) is pointless as it not a tracked service. You need SD ( [Special Delivery) for that.
It will cost you £6.45 but, as I said in my previous post, why bother when you can do the whole thing online?
If you have no PoP/RD/SD, I reckon DVLA will reject any appeal. Their likely next step if you don't then settle is to pass it on to a DCA.
You will then be threatened by said DCA with additional costs and the prospect of a county court claim.
It's your call whether you want to fight it all the way and take your chances in front of a judge if/when that happens.
Golden Rule #1. If you do have to send anything to DVLA via RM always ensure you can prove it.
Golden Rule #2. Never forget Golden Rule #1
Nothing whatsoever to do with purchasing a vehicle. Yet another thread where the original post contains incorrect information which then has to be teased out.
As for this
momon121 said:
I dont understand if DVLA never sends their mail recorded delivery i dont understand why we have to do it.
You don't have to. Proof of posting, which is evidence for the purposes of the Interpretation Act, is free Recorded Delivery (RD) is pointless as it not a tracked service. You need SD ( [Special Delivery) for that.
It will cost you £6.45 but, as I said in my previous post, why bother when you can do the whole thing online?
If you have no PoP/RD/SD, I reckon DVLA will reject any appeal. Their likely next step if you don't then settle is to pass it on to a DCA.
You will then be threatened by said DCA with additional costs and the prospect of a county court claim.
It's your call whether you want to fight it all the way and take your chances in front of a judge if/when that happens.
Golden Rule #1. If you do have to send anything to DVLA via RM always ensure you can prove it.
Golden Rule #2. Never forget Golden Rule #1
There is always a chance. 
What you are really asking is the percentage likelihood of success.
If you don't have anything (PoP/RD/SD) to back up your claim to have sent the V5C/3 then that makes it weaker.
Worth noting that the Parliamentary Ombusdman declined to uphold a maladministration complaint against the DVLA.
The reason given was the lack of supporting evidence from the complainant that she had done what she claimed she had.
It therefore comes down to your word versus that of the DVLA. All is not lost yet, but you need to be canny.
How you proceed now depends on exactly what you said in your initial contact (phone call/letter/e-mail) with DVLA.
It's always better to claim that it has been lost internally (rather than by RM) because DVLA's systems are flaky/non-existent.
In that regard you may find this response to a FoIA request interesting - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/233740/resp...
Not only does it not keep records, but most people are totally unaware of the existence of ACTS.
The DVLA doesn't publicise it: as a result very few people escalate to a formal complaint
Which is not the same thing as an appeal...
If the DVLA does farm it out to a DCA* just tell the latter that the debt is in dispute and not to contact you again.
Do this the moment you get the first letter. It stops them racking up costs. In any case it is powerless without a court Order.
* It shouldn't do this until the appeal process has reached its conclusion.
I hardly need to add that all communication from this point onwards to/from any party involved must be in writing.*
Do not under any circumstances be tempted to do so by phone. If you do somehow receive a call, politely decline to discuss it.
* Most important of all, if you haven't done so already, create a file for photocopies of every document which you send by snail mail.
Also print out and file screen grabs of all e-mails + attachments.
While you are considering the best course of action, I'm going to set you some homework.
Pick out the relevant threads here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdi...
Your starter for 10. - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...
You have done what is required of you by Section 22(2)(b) of the The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/regul...
An interesting point is that the Regulations use different words for private sales and those to a vehicle trader (Section 23).
The former says 'deliver' whereas the latter says 'notify. One might well ask, why? To exploit gullible MoPs perhaps?
All my red version V5Cs predate the online service going live so there is no mention of it at all.
Unless an unsavvy RK were to think of going to the website link given for more information they would never know.
What makes it even worse is that if he/she does, the overview page doesn't have a link to the relevant sold/bought one.
It's only the most common reason for people to need to contact the DVLA..!
The DVLA likes to think that the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 doesn't apply to it despite the wording catching all of the above expressions.
Their argument has two strands. The first is that the 2002 Regulations do not contain the words 'service by post'.
This is despite the V5C Section 12 wording which says 'return' together with a postal address! How else would it get there ffs?!
The second is an obscure case dating back to Victorian times (can't find a link atm) re the meaning of 'deliver'.
At least one judge since has rubbished this as, taken literally, it would mean every RK would have to travel to Swansea to comply.
The supreme irony in this is the DVLA is on record as saying it considers the above Act would apply to documents it sends out.
But when the boot is on the other foot it hums a different tune. Talk about double standards.
Thankfully I have yet to find myself in your position but if I were I would face off the DVLA in court.
Its 'f
k you we're always right' intransigence and bullyboy tactics stick in my craw.
I have both the time and funds for a fight. YMMV.
If so, you need to settle the LLP at the reduced rate of £40 plus the 3 months outstanding VED (£57.51) by 30th November.
HTH.
What you are really asking is the percentage likelihood of success.If you don't have anything (PoP/RD/SD) to back up your claim to have sent the V5C/3 then that makes it weaker.
Worth noting that the Parliamentary Ombusdman declined to uphold a maladministration complaint against the DVLA.
The reason given was the lack of supporting evidence from the complainant that she had done what she claimed she had.
It therefore comes down to your word versus that of the DVLA. All is not lost yet, but you need to be canny.
How you proceed now depends on exactly what you said in your initial contact (phone call/letter/e-mail) with DVLA.
It's always better to claim that it has been lost internally (rather than by RM) because DVLA's systems are flaky/non-existent.
In that regard you may find this response to a FoIA request interesting - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/233740/resp...
Not only does it not keep records, but most people are totally unaware of the existence of ACTS.
The DVLA doesn't publicise it: as a result very few people escalate to a formal complaint
Which is not the same thing as an appeal...
If the DVLA does farm it out to a DCA* just tell the latter that the debt is in dispute and not to contact you again.
Do this the moment you get the first letter. It stops them racking up costs. In any case it is powerless without a court Order.
* It shouldn't do this until the appeal process has reached its conclusion.
I hardly need to add that all communication from this point onwards to/from any party involved must be in writing.*
Do not under any circumstances be tempted to do so by phone. If you do somehow receive a call, politely decline to discuss it.
* Most important of all, if you haven't done so already, create a file for photocopies of every document which you send by snail mail.
Also print out and file screen grabs of all e-mails + attachments.
While you are considering the best course of action, I'm going to set you some homework.
Pick out the relevant threads here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdi...
Your starter for 10.
- http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthr...You have done what is required of you by Section 22(2)(b) of the The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/regul...
An interesting point is that the Regulations use different words for private sales and those to a vehicle trader (Section 23).
The former says 'deliver' whereas the latter says 'notify. One might well ask, why? To exploit gullible MoPs perhaps?
All my red version V5Cs predate the online service going live so there is no mention of it at all.
Unless an unsavvy RK were to think of going to the website link given for more information they would never know.
What makes it even worse is that if he/she does, the overview page doesn't have a link to the relevant sold/bought one.
It's only the most common reason for people to need to contact the DVLA..!
The DVLA likes to think that the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 doesn't apply to it despite the wording catching all of the above expressions.
Their argument has two strands. The first is that the 2002 Regulations do not contain the words 'service by post'.
This is despite the V5C Section 12 wording which says 'return' together with a postal address! How else would it get there ffs?!
The second is an obscure case dating back to Victorian times (can't find a link atm) re the meaning of 'deliver'.
At least one judge since has rubbished this as, taken literally, it would mean every RK would have to travel to Swansea to comply.
The supreme irony in this is the DVLA is on record as saying it considers the above Act would apply to documents it sends out.
But when the boot is on the other foot it hums a different tune. Talk about double standards.
Thankfully I have yet to find myself in your position but if I were I would face off the DVLA in court.
Its 'f
k you we're always right' intransigence and bullyboy tactics stick in my craw.I have both the time and funds for a fight. YMMV.
If so, you need to settle the LLP at the reduced rate of £40 plus the 3 months outstanding VED (£57.51) by 30th November.
HTH.
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