Square number plates and taxis
Discussion
OK, bit of an odd one this, but I've tried to find the answer myself & I'm either missing it completely or I'm right (which would be a rare thing, but it does happen occasionally).
I received an enquiry from a licensing officer in another borough today stating that they've been challenged by DVSA in relation to allowing taxis & private hire vehicles to display square (2 rows of numbers / letters) rather than rectangular (single row of numbers / letters) number plates to the rear. This is very common practice for licensed vehicles in many boroughs and allows vehicle proprietors to display their number plate alongside the rear taxi / private hire plate - I'm sure you've all seen the type of thing I'm on about.
Anyway, this officer forwarded an email from an official at the DVSA stating that vehicles which are displaying square number plates, but which have been designed (and type-approved) for rectangular number plates, are potentially committing an offence. They further asked that this information be circulated to all other local authorities.
I was a police traffic officer for many years and I've worked in Local Authority licensing for over 7 years and this is the first I've ever heard of it.
To be honest, I have absolutely no intention of enforcing this regulation (if it exists) on my own licensed vehicles, either through test standards or vehicle specifications & the suggestion that we should be advising all our vehicle owners to remove and replace square plates seems petty in the extreme.
My biggest issue, however, is that I cannot find any reference to this particular potential offence. I've checked the Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 and I can find no reference to specific requirements for rectangular plates over square plates. Plenty of regs about font sizes, reflection material, font thicknesses and plate dimensions, but nothing which requires vehicles - irrespective of type approval - to display only rectangular plates.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/conten...
The thing is - I'd dearly love to contact the DVSA and tell them they're wrong, that there's nothing whatsoever illegal about drivers choosing to display square number plates to the rear, that, together with all other local authorities, we won't be enforcing their petty, imaginary legislation & that they should find something more productive to do with their time. I've even got the email typed up & ready to go.
It's just that I've a nagging doubt that I've missed something and that, sitting somewhere in the deepest recesses of the bowels of British road traffic legislation is a dusty old obscure bit of law that I've missed.
Can anyone tell me if I'm right or wrong before I send the email?
I could, of course, email the DVSA person back and ask them to point out the act and section they think such plates would be breaching, but I'd prefer to send them a plain old "you're wrong, get lost" email.
Help me out PH!
I received an enquiry from a licensing officer in another borough today stating that they've been challenged by DVSA in relation to allowing taxis & private hire vehicles to display square (2 rows of numbers / letters) rather than rectangular (single row of numbers / letters) number plates to the rear. This is very common practice for licensed vehicles in many boroughs and allows vehicle proprietors to display their number plate alongside the rear taxi / private hire plate - I'm sure you've all seen the type of thing I'm on about.
Anyway, this officer forwarded an email from an official at the DVSA stating that vehicles which are displaying square number plates, but which have been designed (and type-approved) for rectangular number plates, are potentially committing an offence. They further asked that this information be circulated to all other local authorities.
I was a police traffic officer for many years and I've worked in Local Authority licensing for over 7 years and this is the first I've ever heard of it.
To be honest, I have absolutely no intention of enforcing this regulation (if it exists) on my own licensed vehicles, either through test standards or vehicle specifications & the suggestion that we should be advising all our vehicle owners to remove and replace square plates seems petty in the extreme.
My biggest issue, however, is that I cannot find any reference to this particular potential offence. I've checked the Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 and I can find no reference to specific requirements for rectangular plates over square plates. Plenty of regs about font sizes, reflection material, font thicknesses and plate dimensions, but nothing which requires vehicles - irrespective of type approval - to display only rectangular plates.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/conten...
The thing is - I'd dearly love to contact the DVSA and tell them they're wrong, that there's nothing whatsoever illegal about drivers choosing to display square number plates to the rear, that, together with all other local authorities, we won't be enforcing their petty, imaginary legislation & that they should find something more productive to do with their time. I've even got the email typed up & ready to go.
It's just that I've a nagging doubt that I've missed something and that, sitting somewhere in the deepest recesses of the bowels of British road traffic legislation is a dusty old obscure bit of law that I've missed.
Can anyone tell me if I'm right or wrong before I send the email?
I could, of course, email the DVSA person back and ask them to point out the act and section they think such plates would be breaching, but I'd prefer to send them a plain old "you're wrong, get lost" email.
Help me out PH!
Reg Local said:
The thing is - I'd dearly love to contact the DVSA and tell them they're wrong, that there's nothing whatsoever illegal about drivers choosing to display square number plates to the rear, that, together with all other local authorities, we won't be enforcing their petty, imaginary legislation & that they should find something more productive to do with their time. I've even got the email typed up & ready to go.
It's just that I've a nagging doubt that I've missed something and that, sitting somewhere in the deepest recesses of the bowels of British road traffic legislation is a dusty old obscure bit of law that I've missed.
I suspect that, if anything, it's related to the type approval regs on the acceptable position and illumination for a plate. Projections and edges may also come into it.It's just that I've a nagging doubt that I've missed something and that, sitting somewhere in the deepest recesses of the bowels of British road traffic legislation is a dusty old obscure bit of law that I've missed.
Is there anywhere in the Type Approval for any particular model of car that stipulates the shape of the plate to be fitted?
In the case of the Rover 75, the Jaguar S-Type, and no-doubt others, how would the shaped rear plates commonly fitted to those cars be defined?
I think you just send your email and tell us how they respond.
In the case of the Rover 75, the Jaguar S-Type, and no-doubt others, how would the shaped rear plates commonly fitted to those cars be defined?
I think you just send your email and tell us how they respond.
My understanding of type approval regulations is that they relate to the manufacturer, not to the vehicle owner who wishes to modify their car. If it were an offence to modify a car from it's standard, type-approved condition, the aftermarket tuning & modding trade would die overnight.
I know that vehicles are type approved for sale in the UK, but I know of no legislation or regulation which prohibits a vehicle owner from replacing a rectangular number plate with a square one.
I know that vehicles are type approved for sale in the UK, but I know of no legislation or regulation which prohibits a vehicle owner from replacing a rectangular number plate with a square one.
GoneAnon said:
Is there anywhere in the Type Approval for any particular model of car that stipulates the shape of the plate to be fitted?
In the case of the Rover 75, the Jaguar S-Type, and no-doubt others, how would the shaped rear plates commonly fitted to those cars be defined?
The plate regs specify the layout, shape and minimum margin of the plates. All of those are larger than the standard - so it's just a bit of extra yellow plastic around the plate.In the case of the Rover 75, the Jaguar S-Type, and no-doubt others, how would the shaped rear plates commonly fitted to those cars be defined?
TooMany2cvs said:
The plate regs specify the layout, shape and minimum margin of the plates. All of those are larger than the standard - so it's just a bit of extra yellow plastic around the plate.
I know that, but the question is about a Type Approval issue related to the shape of the plate. Does TA for any particular make or model of car stipulate that the plate MUST be rectangular or must be square? Or must be a funny ovaloidish shape?
The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986, as amended, govern the use of vehicles on UK roads. Some of it refers to type approval legislation for specific elements (eg emissions depending on age) but otherwise it's standalone.
So long as the plate is correctly illuminated I can't see any issue.
So long as the plate is correctly illuminated I can't see any issue.
GoneAnon said:
Does TA for any particular make or model of car stipulate that the plate MUST be rectangular or must be square? Or must be a funny ovaloidish shape?
It says there's certain layouts - all on one line, two lines, three lines - that are acceptable. There are minimum amounts of reflective around the characters. Beyond that - fair game.http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/schedu...
Reg Local said:
I received an enquiry from a licensing officer in another borough today stating that they've been challenged by DVSA in relation to allowing taxis & private hire vehicles to display square (2 rows of numbers / letters) rather than rectangular (single row of numbers / letters) number plates to the rear. This is very common practice for licensed vehicles in many boroughs and allows vehicle proprietors to display their number plate alongside the rear taxi / private hire plate - I'm sure you've all seen the type of thing I'm on about.
Anyway, this officer forwarded an email from an official at the DVSA stating that vehicles which are displaying square number plates, but which have been designed (and type-approved) for rectangular number plates, are potentially committing an offence. They further asked that this information be circulated to all other local authorities.
Type approval relates to the space for mounting and the fixing of rear registration plates on motor vehicles and their trailers, not the number plate itself.Anyway, this officer forwarded an email from an official at the DVSA stating that vehicles which are displaying square number plates, but which have been designed (and type-approved) for rectangular number plates, are potentially committing an offence. They further asked that this information be circulated to all other local authorities.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri...
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?... - paragraph (33)
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?...
I can't find anything in this list to show that the 2010 Regulation has been updated or replaced.
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/automotive/leg...
If you think about it type approval cannot extend to the number plate as that is not part of the manufacturing process of the vehicle.
Reg Local said:
My biggest issue, however, is that I cannot find any reference to this particular potential offence. I've checked the Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 and I can find no reference to specific requirements for rectangular plates over square plates. Plenty of regs about font sizes, reflection material, font thicknesses and plate dimensions, but nothing which requires vehicles - irrespective of type approval - to display only rectangular plates.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/conten...
The only variation relates to the reduced font size, spacing, and border dimensions for certain imported vehicles which do not have ECWVTA - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2687/regul...http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/conten...
It was introduced because a 'letterbox style' plate physically will not fit on American and Jap imports (two of my cars are in the latter category).
Most taxis with the arrangement you describe use a purpose made holder like this. AFAICS there is nothing in the C&U Regs which would prohibit it.
ISTM that DVSA is employing some sort of 'reverse osmosis' here with no basis in law.
Reg Local said:
It's just that I've a nagging doubt that I've missed something and that, sitting somewhere in the deepest recesses of the bowels of British road traffic legislation is a dusty old obscure bit of law that I've missed.
I'm not aware of one either.Reg Local said:
I could, of course, email the DVSA person back and ask them to point out the act and section they think such plates would be breaching, but I'd prefer to send them a plain old "you're wrong, get lost" email.
Help me out PH!
Would you like me to fire off a FoIA in their direction Help me out PH!
If/when I get a reply and it proves the sender is talking out of his a**e you can then let them have it with both barrels!
My preference is to employ my limited local authority compliance & enforcement resources in matters relating more to public safety, like checking our drivers don't have serious convictions, making sure all four wheels are attached etc.
Even if there is some obscure legislation dictating the shape of otherwise perfectly legible number plates, I won't be wasting any time on it.
Even if there is some obscure legislation dictating the shape of otherwise perfectly legible number plates, I won't be wasting any time on it.
I wonder if its to do with the illumination?
The top/bottom row of letters are a longer way away from a light which is above/below the plate. Maybe square car sized plates should be lit from the side like some lorries are?
I guess motorbikes may not come into this as different design and rules may apply as well as a smaller plate.
The top/bottom row of letters are a longer way away from a light which is above/below the plate. Maybe square car sized plates should be lit from the side like some lorries are?
I guess motorbikes may not come into this as different design and rules may apply as well as a smaller plate.
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