RE: Autonomous cars: do you feel lucky

RE: Autonomous cars: do you feel lucky

Tuesday 14th November 2017

Autonomous cars: do you feel lucky?

'Signing your life away' for a car is about to take on a whole new meaning



Would you get into a car if you knew there was a chance it might take a conscious decision to kill you?

Probably not. And yet this is exactly the Hobson's choice that travellers will be facing sooner rather than later as artificially intelligent (AI) cars come on stream and start mixing it with the dumb stuff we're currently driving.


Here's a scenario. You're in a fully autonomous pod with two other urban travellers. Something beyond the pod's control happens. There's going to be an accident. The AI-equipped pod has to make an instant choice between (a) mowing down eight people in a bus queue or (b) crashing head-on into a concrete bollard, possibly killing three.

The choice that an autonomous pod will make in such a scenario may well be based on a simple mathematical calculation. It could be goodbye Vienna for you - and there'll be no comeback either because not only will passengers in fully-autonomous vehicles have to face up to the possibility of murder by car, they will probably have had to sign a disclaimer absolving the manufacturer or the insurer of all blame for that before being allowed into the vehicle in the first place.

This is pure science fiction, surely? Well, no, it isn't. It might have been in the 1950s, when visionary sci-fi author Isaac Asimov first set out the Three Laws of Robotics in his 'I Robot' collection, and artificial intelligence was being put forward as something we should perhaps be studying. But sixty years on, we're racing headlong into an artificially intelligent world, and the implications are properly gobsmacking.


There's a stampede on at the minute to be the first company to bring 100 per cent autonomous vehicles to the public. Big players like Intel, Uber, Apple, Google, General Motors and a few others are vying for the glory that goes with saving motorists from the distracting influences of sleep, drink or, worst of all, the social media messages that are constantly beamed into our phones and cars by the likes of Intel, Uber, Apple, Google, General Motors and a few others.

The thing is, AI development is happening at lightning speed. The faster it goes, the faster it goes. In the same week that Waymo (the self-driving car division of Google) announced that its fully self-driving vehicles were rolling in Chandler, Arizona without human backup drivers, a self-driving shuttle bus in Las Vegas was involved in a crash on its very first day of service with a lorry whose (all too human) driver didn't see the bus. When the shuttle perceived the oncoming danger, it correctly stopped in its tracks. The lorry didn't.


A human driver could have moved the shuttle out of harm's way, or at least done something to attract the lorry driver's attention. When full AI comes to transportation, everything should (technically) be fine. But the transition phase between 2017 and full autonomy - in which humans who are actually less rational than their cars will be doing battle with AI-brained vehicles that are also taking 'human' actions - could produce the most dangerous motoring conditions in history.

Some transport experts who have taken the time to look at the implications of AI in cars are saying that it poses all manner of issues, not just legal and regulatory, but moral. It's easy enough to see the upside of genuinely sorted motoring autonomy. Apart from the obvious decoupling of all motoring stress, the arrival of AI on our roads could also see an end to the use of vehicles as weapons. Driverless vehicles cannot try to kill someone. They have to stop, just like that Vegas shuttle bus did. That's based on one of those three Asimov rules that have gradually morphed from science fiction into science fact. But what's to prevent pedestrians from stopping cars either for a laugh or with more sinister motives in mind, like robbery, or worse? And what if hackers compromise them?


Where does this leave the insurance industry? Will there be anything to insure? In a fully AI-ed up world, not only accidents but also car thefts should become things of the past. Only the doziest thieves are going to try and pinch something that has the ability to lock them in, notify the cops of an impending felon delivery and then drive them smoothly off to the police station, complete with a neatly-packaged forensic record of the crime. Maybe insurance companies will simply reposition their automotive products into the provision of death and injury benefits for dependents.

Many believe that politicians have been using artificial intelligence for years. Certainly, they don't appear to have been using the genuine stuff recently. Governments aren't looking at the AI apocalypse very hard, not because they don't want to look at it but because it's a bit too hard to look at.

Thing is, engineers and programmers will be only too happy to keep equipping us with cool stuff like AI cars as long as there's money in it, but at some point in the game someone needs to think about the implications. These vehicles won't be driving robotically by following a series of individual instructions. They will actually be learning how to drive, just as we humans do.


And that is a massive difference. The algorithms AI cars will be using in this so-called 'deep learning' process are heavy duty. They involve computations that humans aren't even thinking about, and will enable those cars to make decisions that we won't be able to track or explain. When algorithms reach the levels of sophistication that they're attaining right now, nobody really knows how they work or what they do. That's fact, not conspiracy theory. From 2018, the EU may be requiring companies to at least have the ability to provide explanations for automated system decisions. Then again, they may not.

Accountability to users should be key, but machine-learning at this sort of level brings a different and potentially quite uncomfortable new set of parameters into play. As it stands we're all kind of relying on the hope that the AI geeks will live up to their calming reassurances that everything is going to be just fine.

But the march of AI is going to impact right across society. Cyclists may well be legislated off the roads on the grounds of them being AI-confusing pests. You can probably come up with a few end-game possibilities of your own.

And when you add in another fact - that AI cars could actually be given rights, just like animals or human beings - it does give you pause. Or it should do at least.

Author
Discussion

Kawasicki

Original Poster:

13,084 posts

235 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
AI doesn't exist, so it is difficult for it to be used any time soon in a car.

When AI finally does exist it will be a gigantic development for the human race.

There is gigantic exaggeration of current autonomous car capability. Yes it will come, but expect limited performance for the next decade at least.

Venturist

3,472 posts

195 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
For god’s sake can we stop banging on about the “AI making moral choices” thing. It is not a thing. The car decision tree is very simple and better than humans are at it:
Is it clear to continue, or not?
No?
Is there time to stop?
No?
Is there space to SAFELY avoid the obstacle?
No?
Then the impact is inevitable so slam on the anchors in a straight line, the most efficient way to scrub as much speed as possible, and take the hit front-on, the direction that cars are safest taking hits.
The end. At no point does the car need to decide the relative worth of a kleptomaniac elderly nun vs a reformed tax fraud with a potato carving hobby.

Humans are crap at this as our self preservation instincts often lead us to swerves and other last ditch snap reaction manoeuvres which end up doing more harm than good.

Yipper

5,964 posts

90 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
Everyone already entrusts their safety to an imperfect machine, like a human taxi driver. Autonomous vehicles are / will be much safer than human vehicles. Net-net, you're safer in Knight Rider.

Debaser

5,848 posts

261 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
I recall Mercedes stating their autonomous cars will prioritise the lives of the occupants.

Debaser

5,848 posts

261 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
Can we not get the programmers working on AI and deep learning to come up with automatic wipers that actually work?

otolith

56,135 posts

204 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
Venturist said:
For god’s sake can we stop banging on about the “AI making moral choices” thing. It is not a thing. The car decision tree is very simple and better than humans are at it:
^^ this.

Self-driving cars don't care about your moral dilemmas


The trolley problem is posed as if it fell out of the sky, but the idea is that you build systems so that the outcome is one in which you cannot be held negligent. So the five people on the railway track are trespassing and have bypassed your reasonable precautions to keep them out - and the one person on the alternate track you could divert the train onto is a worker not doing anything wrong. And what determines what you do is not a moral question, it's a matter of legal liability.

PatCub

244 posts

116 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
So if you were driving a car and had to make the split second choice of running down a bus queue of old people, pregnant mothers, children etc. or crashing into a concrete bollard and risking severe injury what would you choose?
I would hope most drivers would choose the later option.

vikingaero

10,334 posts

169 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
PatCub said:
So if you were driving a car and had to make the split second choice of running down a bus queue of old people, pregnant mothers, children etc. or crashing into a concrete bollard and risking severe injury what would you choose?
I would hope most drivers would choose the later option.
Depends on the morals of the driver. My morals would be that I drove and I should be responsible. Plenty of Working Class/Middle Class/Upper Class Chavs would have no gumption in choosing the lives of others.

Evilex

512 posts

104 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
Debaser said:
I recall Mercedes stating their autonomous cars will prioritise the lives of the occupants.
I wonder what would happen if two Mercedes were about to crash?

Swerve and hit the Beemer instead?

Roundm

161 posts

118 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
otolith said:
^^ this.

Self-driving cars don't care about your moral dilemmas


The trolley problem is posed as if it fell out of the sky, but the idea is that you build systems so that the outcome is one in which you cannot be held negligent. So the five people on the railway track are trespassing and have bypassed your reasonable precautions to keep them out - and the one person on the alternate track you could divert the train onto is a worker not doing anything wrong. And what determines what you do is not a moral question, it's a matter of legal liability.
I get so fed up with drivel journalism repeating this sort of garbage. There is no dilemma, program the vehicle to follow the laws of driving and it will be prevented from taking an action to cause an accident to the uninvolved. The 'five in the way'/'preganant woman'/whatever is trespassing, the others are uninvolved. If the laws say drive on the road - the car does that, if the trespasser walks infront tough, there is no dilemma, it was self inflicted.

more of an issue is the knock on impacts of self driving vehicles on employment, no more drivers means no more taxis (or rather every vehicle is an autonomous taxi), no trucks, no trains (don't need them), no road furniture manufacture (replaced with digital alternatives), no personal vehicle ownership (why bother? and why dedicate the space outside my home to storing something that is only used for 250 hours a year), no corner garages, no traffic police, no motor insurance (I don't own it - and who is the insured party anyway?), no driver awareness training, no parking (sent the car away until I needed it), no parking attendants (hooray!), no revenue stream for councils..........

so - why are we still building HS2?? by the time it's in use - it will be irrelevant smile

DonkeyApple

55,292 posts

169 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
It's just a car that has been programmed by a group of men who live with the mother, can't function properly in society and have very abnormal life values. Nothing can go wrong.

From the people who brought the world socialising without needing to go outside and think having slogans like 'don't do evil' absolve them from doing wrong all day long, the new world of personal transport is clearly going to be so much fun. Just so long as you follow orders. Non compliance is unlikely to be an option.

But, autonomous cars will be of benefit to the pensioner demographic who need to remain mobile but are an army of road killers in waiting as declining faculties and increasing medications make it harder and harder for them to drive safely. They will be of benefit to large numbers of suburban and urban dwellers in their day to day potterings and as mobile toilets and rutting cabins you can call up late at night they will be of great use to the Saturday Night Specials.

What will be interesting is the massive enterprise changes and opportunities driverless cars will present us.

It's all very exciting but at the same time worrying to consider the people behind the programming and the decisions they have to make on behalf of normal people.

anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
PH said:
When algorithms reach the levels of sophistication that they're attaining right now, nobody really knows how they work or what they do. That's fact, not conspiracy theory.
State your source please?

(i don't believe you!)

otolith

56,135 posts

204 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
There is a school of thought in the industry that self driving cars will remove the desire for personal car ownership, but it doesn’t make sense to me. People don’t by and large own cars because they like driving, they do it because it’s more convenient and comfortable than public transport, it’s their own private space and they can signal social status with it. I don’t see driverless minicabs altering that situation except for at the fringes of affordability and hassle.

anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
PatCub said:
So if you were driving a car and had to make the split second choice of running down a bus queue of old people, pregnant mothers, children etc. or crashing into a concrete bollard and risking severe injury what would you choose?
I would hope most drivers would choose the later option.
If there is time to decide who to hit, then there is also time to simple avoid the entire accident in the first place. I'd say the number of human drivers who can threshold brake and control their trajectory with inch perfect precision in an unexpected emergency is precisely zero!

Many years ago, when i worked for a company that did advanced driver training we would do the "Box A, Box B, Box C" stopping test. Here, the driver under assessment accelerates into 3rd gear at 40mph down between a lane of cones. As they pass the last cone, the instructor shouts "A", "B" or "C" and the driver must get the car, stopped, into the matching coned off box that is ahead of them (A being to the left, B being straight ahead, and C being to the right)

The catch is two fold:

1) the driver doesn't know until the last minute if they will need to steer left, right or not at all

and

2) The back of the boxes to stop in are only the same distance from the approach lane as required by the car to perform a full emergency stop


here, with just 3 options, all of which you know are a possibility and all of which are expected (you know you have to get the car into one of the boxes, you know you have to do a full emergency stop as soon as you pass the last approach lane cone) the vast majority of drivers would get completely target fixated, either failing to stop, or failing to steer. Do it on a low grip surface with the ABS and DSC disabled and most would exit backwards and plough down about 50 cones (rule 1: you knock 'em down, you get out and put em back up again.....)

In even this very simple exercise, even very skillful highly trained drivers struggled. Joe Average, popping down to the shops with their Nan for some teabags, stands no chance........

witko999

632 posts

208 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
Roundm said:
more of an issue is the knock on impacts of self driving vehicles on employment, no more drivers means no more taxis (or rather every vehicle is an autonomous taxi), no trucks, no trains (don't need them), no road furniture manufacture (replaced with digital alternatives), no personal vehicle ownership (why bother? and why dedicate the space outside my home to storing something that is only used for 250 hours a year), no corner garages, no traffic police, no motor insurance (I don't own it - and who is the insured party anyway?), no driver awareness training, no parking (sent the car away until I needed it), no parking attendants (hooray!), no revenue stream for councils..........

so - why are we still building HS2?? by the time it's in use - it will be irrelevant smile
I think you're dreaming. That kind of utopia is so far away it may never arrive.

To question some of your points:

Why no personal vehicle ownership? I could use a taxi for all my journeys right now. It would be expensive and still less convenient than using my own vehicle. Ok, you wouldn't have to pay a driver, but since a miserable ride on a large capacity bus currently costs a lot, I can't foresee any savings. Also, without a taxi driver's watchful eye, I suspect a lot of these autonomous taxis would be full of garbage and bodily fluids. No thanks.

No corner garages - Autonomous vehicles will still need servicing/tyres/brakes etc.

No traffic police - The network will probably be covered in so many cameras that they only traffic police will be managing them in an office

No motor insurance - The cynic in me says we'd still get shafted on that somehow

No parking (sent the car away until I needed it) - So as well as people making their journeys as they do today, we also have a large number of empty vehicles heading to the next job? Like an all day rush hour.

Wills2

22,832 posts

175 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
Debaser said:
Can we not get the programmers working on AI and deep learning to come up with automatic wipers that actually work?
Every time I hear that we'll all be zooming around in AI fully autonomous cars I think of my auto wipers and think, really? Not for a while, in fact not in my life time I'd wager.

And lets not even mention my adaptive lights that love to get it wrong and blind the poor buggers coming towards me....



J4CKO

41,562 posts

200 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
Debaser said:
I recall Mercedes stating their autonomous cars will prioritise the lives of the occupants.
Audis will prioritise their occupants journey time biggrin

I think the systems will get so good they wont need to make moral choices, not very often anyway. Imagine the level of control when things like ESP doesnt have a dopey human involved, systems taking in vast data and calculating possible hazards, not getting tired, bored, drunk, old or showing off.


DonkeyApple

55,292 posts

169 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
otolith said:
There is a school of thought in the industry that self driving cars will remove the desire for personal car ownership, but it doesn’t make sense to me. People don’t by and large own cars because they like driving, they do it because it’s more convenient and comfortable than public transport, it’s their own private space and they can signal social status with it. I don’t see driverless minicabs altering that situation except for at the fringes of affordability and hassle.
I think you've hit the nail in the head with the latter part. Given the direction the West has been heading economically, it won't just be a loss of private ownership of property that rises but also the next most expensive personal purchase, the car.

Many people will buy their autonomous vehicle personally and continue to use it as you describe but for the majority it will simply be a driverless minicab. Cheaper than a minicab but ultimately more expensive than owning a car but charged as PAYG so that higher cost is broken down into easily consumed little bites.

I guess it will also make it easier to ban people from driving and for the army of elderly to stop self driving. But it will probably seal the fate of normal cars in cities.

samoht

5,715 posts

146 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
PH wildly speculated: "the transition phase between 2017 and full autonomy - could produce the most dangerous motoring conditions in history."

Drivers with actual experience of sharing the road with AVs said: "As far as their driving behavior, they pretty much blend in... When the light turns green, they're not sitting there texting, so they actually go."
( https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/11/why-phoenix-i... )


RobDickinson

31,343 posts

254 months

Tuesday 14th November 2017
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
AI doesn't exist, so it is difficult for it to be used any time soon in a car.
Limited AI certainly does exist, and fully concious general AI isnt that far off ( 20-40 years or so)

But we dont need full AI to have self driving cars which will start to get common in the next ~5 years.

We already have them operating on real roads in the real world (waymo/us), and so long as they are safer overall than humans (not hard) they will be good.