Wednesday 15th November 2017

Dodge Viper GTS: Spotted

The last of a dying breed!

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Production of the Dodge Viper is due to end any minute now, a true American beast of a car that sadly no longer has place in the world; we can have a Hellcat, yes, but not a Viper as well. But this all-American beast had an Italian heart. When the Viper was first thought up in the late 80s, Lamborghini, then a subsidiary of Chrysler, was asked to build an engine that was two litres larger than that of the Diablo. The Viper V10 was born...

Now THAT is an engine brace!

The rudimentary model had very little in terms of driver aids and such a powerful engine on a tubular chassis proved difficult to handle. Over the course of its life, the Viper was upgraded and tweaked, engine displacement increased from 8.0- to 8.3-litres and then later to 8.4 thanks to assistance from McLaren and Ricardo Consulting engineers providing more power; eventually weight was reduced and driver aids brought in as well - airbags and ABS among them. The focus remained on improving power output and reducing weight up until Chrysler announced Viper production would cease in mid-2010.

A month later, Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne confirmed a new Viper, one that would be more forgiving and accessible than previous models; this car is one of those. Fitted with an aluminium 8.4-litre V10 with 645hp and 600lb ft, it's capable of reaching 208mph. This 2015 GTS looks similar to the early launch edition models - painted Viper Blue with white GTS stripes and inside there is black leather with contrast stitching but missing the commemorative plaque of the LE cars.

The Viper is such a niche product that competitors are few and far between. Looking at Dodge's product range throws up a Challenger Hellcat in the UK, while if you want that other iconic American sports car, this Corvette is similarly priced, similarly powerful and similarly, er, blue. Both will cause something of a stir over here but, as the Viper has proven for 25 years, sometimes there really is no replacement for displacement.

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DODGE VIPER GTS

Engine: 8,390cc, V10
Transmission: 6-speed manual, rear-wheel drive
Power (hp): 645@6,200rpm
Torque (lb ft): 600@5,000rpm
MPG: 18 (NEDC combined)
CO2: N/A
First registered: N/A
Recorded mileage: 6,000
Price new: $107,995
Yours for: £86,990

See the full advert here.

[ilovequo]

Chrome Wheels!
Arghhhghh

[ZX10R NIN]

They would have to go, but that's all I'd complain about.

[P.Griffin]

I'm no engineer, but how, even with help from McLaren, does such a huge engine only kick out 645 hp?

[AndySheff]

This popped up on my radar recently, but having sold my 98 GTS last year, I didn't really feel the need for another one. Though of course it's a newer, more powerful car. I plumped for a Hellcat instead. (On it's way from the States at the mo').

[thatdude]

P.Griffin said:

I'm no engineer, but how, even with help from McLaren, does such a huge engine only kick out 645 hp?

Take a look at the dyno chart:

https://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-cyvmz/product_image...

It makes a lot of torque from very low down (450 ft-lb at 2200 rpm approx). I wouldnt say it revs very high either (but why would it, it's a huge engine!). It's a different approach to performance; one must also keep in mind that the figures are for full throttle runs, and in fact part-throttle engine performance is perhaps more important (engine usability). It'd be good to see dyno charts on part-throttle runs

[kambites]

P.Griffin said:

I'm no engineer, but how, even with help from McLaren, does such a huge engine only kick out 645 hp?

It's not exactly a revvy engine and 77bhp/litre isn't that bad for a naturally aspirated petrol engine. Especially one without overhead cams.

I doubt it exactly feels slow.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 15th November 10:23

[P.Griffin]

Thanks for the lesson chaps...I guess it all goes to make you appreciate how finely engineered the latest batch of naturally aspirated Porsche GT and Ferrari V12s engines are.

Edited by P.Griffin on Wednesday 15th November 11:06

[thatdude]

P.Griffin said:

Thanks for the lesson chaps...I guess it all goes to make you realise how finely engineered the latest batch of naturally aspirated Porsche and Ferrari engines are.

Get your bore / stroke ratio right and you can rev to the moon (almost). Gasflow, timing, even things like how the combustion chamber is designed to encourage fuel / air mixing and the creation of a homogenous mixture (i.e. evenly distributed) as concentrated around the spark lug as possible (to keep the combustion of everyhting quick...the flame starts at the spark, then runs out from this point igniting the rest of the fuel). valve overlap, pumping losses...so much goes into getting power, and you can design an engine to create almost whatever sort of power curve you like. But nothing trumps revs and displacment

[TheTyreAbuser]

I love Vipers. Brash, brawny, good looking and with honest intentions.

Without the chrome wheels this would be a great looking combination. These last generation cars really are quite lovely. I'd be desperate for an ACR though.

They may not be all that classy, they may not be as pin sharp as some european competitors, or have the build quality, but I can't help but love them.

[1781cc]

Lovely cars to look at (especially in Oreca GTS colours) but the RT/10 I drove was an absolute pig, didn't want to turn in, had wild oversteer when it did, felt dimwitted on the throttle and was cramped in the cabin. Truly a case of never meet your heros.

[suffolk009]

Twenty something years ago I was on the way back from LeMans in a 1600Xflow Caterham. On a stretch of dual carriageway I caught up with one of the early versions (they were very new then). I had to thrash the car to get there. I pulled alongside him, the driver looked out to his left, then did a comedy look down at me, then he floored it. He burbled off into the distance.

I have wanted one ever since.

[DS1086]

P.Griffin said:

I'm no engineer, but how, even with help from McLaren, does such a huge engine only kick out 645 hp?

645hp from 8.4 litres is 76.8hp per litre, which is pretty impressive compared to Mercedes' 302hp from 5.0l, equivalent to 60hp per litre.

[P.Griffin]

DS1086 said:

P.Griffin said:

I'm no engineer, but how, even with help from McLaren, does such a huge engine only kick out 645 hp?

645hp from 8.4 litres is 76.8hp per litre, which is pretty impressive compared to Mercedes' 302hp from 5.0l, equivalent to 60hp per litre.

I was thinking more along these lines...

Porsche GT3 125 hp per litre
Ferrari 458 127 hp per litre

I'm not knocking the car itself, horses for courses (pardon the pun) and all that. It just seems to me a very lazy and unsophisticated way of extracting respectable horse power.

Edited by P.Griffin on Wednesday 15th November 14:21

[Resolutionary]

I bloody love a Viper, dream garage stuff for me. I wonder if prices will rocket (or continue to, if I'm late to that party) for all generations now the lineage is done with? Either way, lottery win stuff as far as I'm concerned, I'd have a brace of them in various iterations.

[996TT02]

P.Griffin said:

I was thinking more along these lines...

Porsche GT3 125 hp per litre
Ferrari 458 127 hp per litre

I'm not knocking the car itself, horses for courses (pardon the pun) and all that. It just seems to me a very lazy and unsophisticated way of extracting respectable horse power.

Edited by P.Griffin on Wednesday 15th November 14:21

Generally speaking, without turbos - high bhp/litre = low torque at low revs.

In the real world I personally prefer low down torque and many people seem to do so also.

The American approach to HP is to make the engine larger as needed. Except for fuel consumption and perhaps weight (not necessarily) there are only benefits to be had.

[RumbleOfThunder]

P.Griffin said:

DS1086 said:

P.Griffin said:

I'm no engineer, but how, even with help from McLaren, does such a huge engine only kick out 645 hp?

645hp from 8.4 litres is 76.8hp per litre, which is pretty impressive compared to Mercedes' 302hp from 5.0l, equivalent to 60hp per litre.

I was thinking more along these lines...

Porsche GT3 125 hp per litre
Ferrari 458 127 hp per litre

I'm not knocking the car itself, horses for courses (pardon the pun) and all that. It just seems to me a very lazy and unsophisticated way of extracting respectable horse power.

Edited by P.Griffin on Wednesday 15th November 14:21

I think you're missing the point by looking at peak power. Look at the 458 and Vipers dyno graphs and you'll probably see the Viper making twice as much power in low to mid part of the rev range. It's not laziness or lack of technical competence that makes the Viper engine the way it is, it's by design.

[RumbleOfThunder]

Also those Chrome wheels are vile!

[Krikkit]

RumbleOfThunder said:

I think you're missing the point by looking at peak power. Look at the 458 and Vipers dyno graphs and you'll probably see the Viper making twice as much power in low to mid part of the rev range. It's not laziness or lack of technical competence that makes the Viper engine the way it is, it's by design.

Quite.

thatdude said:

Take a look at the dyno chart:

https://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-cyvmz/product_image...

It makes a lot of torque from very low down (450 ft-lb at 2200 rpm approx). I wouldnt say it revs very high either (but why would it, it's a huge engine!). It's a different approach to performance; one must also keep in mind that the figures are for full throttle runs, and in fact part-throttle engine performance is perhaps more important (engine usability). It'd be good to see dyno charts on part-throttle runs

And, for comparison the Viper's plot side-by-side with a 458.




Even with variable valve timing and the benefit of a huge amount of development, the Ferrari engine is developing similar torque per litre to the Viper.

[PositronicRay]

Ah a new dodge, wonder what Allen Millyard could do with it?

[kambites]

996TT02 said:

Generally speaking, without turbos - high bhp/litre = low torque at low revs.

For a given power output yes, for a given capacity no. For example the S2000 may not have much torque for a 240bhp engine, but it has one of the highest torque outputs of any naturally aspirated two litre engines.