RE: McLaren and Aston announce record sales
Discussion
_Sorted_ said:
PAUL500 said:
When high cost, completely non essential items are flying out the door is that not a good indication there is too much "theoretical" play money washing around? just like bitcoins etc.
Scary times, I am sure its the new emperors clothes, what happens when the music finally stops and there are not enough chairs to go around?
This ^^^Scary times, I am sure its the new emperors clothes, what happens when the music finally stops and there are not enough chairs to go around?
p1stonhead said:
_Sorted_ said:
PAUL500 said:
When high cost, completely non essential items are flying out the door is that not a good indication there is too much "theoretical" play money washing around? just like bitcoins etc.
Scary times, I am sure its the new emperors clothes, what happens when the music finally stops and there are not enough chairs to go around?
This ^^^Scary times, I am sure its the new emperors clothes, what happens when the music finally stops and there are not enough chairs to go around?
As worrying as the 'play money' theory is, it's good to see it being spent on 2 quality British companies.
ChilliWhizz said:
Back in September there was a run from the dealer you mention to Classic and Sports cars by the Lake just outside Bury, convey of about 30 Astons on the A14 
I live in Norfolk, and in the last year (apart from shows/events and track days) I've only seen one other Aston on the road and not one McLaren...
Wow that's pretty cool. Maybe I should keep an eye on some Aston Martin owners club forum to stalk them lol.I live in Norfolk, and in the last year (apart from shows/events and track days) I've only seen one other Aston on the road and not one McLaren...
The reason you see far more Teslas than Astons or McLarens on the road is that they are used as daily drivers and company cars, the BIK benefits of such a car help them achieve this.
Most Astons and McLarens are for high days and holidays and live in nice warm garages most of their life. Look at the mileages of many at 5 and ten years old that are for sale for proof. It doesn't mean the sales didn't happen.
Most Astons and McLarens are for high days and holidays and live in nice warm garages most of their life. Look at the mileages of many at 5 and ten years old that are for sale for proof. It doesn't mean the sales didn't happen.
There are a LOT of wealthy people around. All it makes me think is, with so many sold, and few people willing to run a ten year old one, this is great for the enthusiasts like us. There are tons of cheap Vantage’s in the classifieds. If you’ve got the guts and can do a few bits yourself, you could run one rather than spending 300 a month on some pay monthly scheme.
p1stonhead said:
_Sorted_ said:
PAUL500 said:
When high cost, completely non essential items are flying out the door is that not a good indication there is too much "theoretical" play money washing around? just like bitcoins etc.
Scary times, I am sure its the new emperors clothes, what happens when the music finally stops and there are not enough chairs to go around?
This ^^^Scary times, I am sure its the new emperors clothes, what happens when the music finally stops and there are not enough chairs to go around?
The current main ranges from Mclaren and Aston are being bought by the boys made good types, much like how the yuppies snapped up 911s in the late 80s and we all recall how that played out.
A lot has to also do the pound being on its arse so anything British is cheap, so long as you don't live here and rely on pound notes to pay your everyday bills.
We shall see. For me its about forecasting when to start battening down the hatches, this is not like the classic car bubble which was fuelled by old/not borrowed money which is why it has not burst, just cooled.
Edited by PAUL500 on Friday 5th January 17:02
indapendentlee said:
Yipper said:
Despite the hype, those 2017 numbers are a disaster for McLaren.
Sales growth has slammed to a halt.
2015 = 1654 cars sold worldwide.
2016 = 3286 / +99% YoY growth.
2017 = 3340 / +2% YoY growth.
Behind the scenes, McLaren will be panicking.
I think there is more going on than it may seem. I'd venture the issues are not demand related and are more likely to do with production issues in a year when their two biggest sellers have only just gone on sale (720 and 570 Spider) which is always likely to stretch production capability. Sales growth has slammed to a halt.
2015 = 1654 cars sold worldwide.
2016 = 3286 / +99% YoY growth.
2017 = 3340 / +2% YoY growth.
Behind the scenes, McLaren will be panicking.
Not that it's not cause for concern but I wouldn't say they're panicking just yet, it seems the owners have put to bed looking for an exit (for now) too so there could well be a slightly longer term view being taken.
PAUL500 said:
Its not those people though buying these middle ranking "affordable" supercars though, that old money was what always kept the likes of Aston just about alive, not flourishing like they currently are.
The current main ranges from Mclaren and Aston are being bought by the boys made good types, much like how the yuppies snapped up 911s in the late 80s and we all recall how that played out.
A lot has to also do the pound being on its arse so anything British is cheap, so long as you don't rely on pound notes to pay your everyday bills.
We shall see. For me its about forecasting when to start battening down the hatches, this is not like the classic bubble which was fuelled by old, and not borrowed money which is why it has not burst, just cooled.
To be honest there is a lot of speculative debt in the Classic market. An awful lot. But what makes it probably more secure is that the average speculator is probably running lower leverage and has more real assets. The current main ranges from Mclaren and Aston are being bought by the boys made good types, much like how the yuppies snapped up 911s in the late 80s and we all recall how that played out.
A lot has to also do the pound being on its arse so anything British is cheap, so long as you don't rely on pound notes to pay your everyday bills.
We shall see. For me its about forecasting when to start battening down the hatches, this is not like the classic bubble which was fuelled by old, and not borrowed money which is why it has not burst, just cooled.
The real driver though is just the shear number of Western men of retirement age with the highest per capita income and wealth ever recorded. I believe 2017 in the UK was the year that retiree income averages surpassed that of workers.
As a side note, a massive driver of the collapse of classic car values in the late 80s was the default of Lloyd’s of London and the wiping out of 30,000 millionaires in the UK and US overnight. This was the large majority of classic car owners and investors and all their assets went up for sale at the same time and they stopped buying.
What is probably driving the new car demand is the exponential growth of the middle classes in the new economies.
It’s really difficult to use the late 80s as a definitive benchmark to what we are seeing now as the number of global consumers has absolutely rocketed.
If we take Aston for example, back in the 80s Victor Gauntlet was hugely reliant on his Rolodex of Middle Eastern customers. Aston had modest sales from the UK and US but was reliant on a handful of sales to the few hundred wealthy people in the ME to stay afloat. Look at the global market today and not only have the number of wealthy consumers in the US and UK grown strongly but in the ME it has increased by a factor of hundreds. Growth has been enormous. On top of that we have South America, India and China all coming in line very strongly as massive global consumers. Those three markets have gone from having a few ultra wealthy and billions of poor to hundreds of millions of wealthy middle class people all with strong consumer aspirations.
In isolation, when you look at the global consumer one almost has to wonder how companies like Aston and McLaren are selling so few cars in reality but obviously in the bigger picture the consumer has an infinitely wider range of goods to be tempted by than thirty years ago.
I’m quite sure we are in a massive credit bubble and that rising debt servicing costs will rebase many markets but I always have to warn myself against making too many comparisons to 87.
Cold said:
LotusOmega375D said:
Those are very impressive numbers, particularly from McLaren who were at 0 units only 7 years ago. Compare that with long-established Lotus churning out barely half that number of cars at a much lower unit price. Shows that there is still a market out there for these sort of cars.
Ah, but according to long established PH expertise Lotus should stick to making stripped out niche MX5 sized cars and sell them for 28p instead of trying to grab a chunk of the more profitable market.Good news for Aston and McLaren. Looking forward to seeing how things pan out in 2018.
DonkeyApple said:
To be honest there is a lot of speculative debt in the Classic market. An awful lot. But what makes it probably more secure is that the average speculator is probably running lower leverage and has more real assets.
The real driver though is just the shear number of Western men of retirement age with the highest per capita income and wealth ever recorded. I believe 2017 in the UK was the year that retiree income averages surpassed that of workers.
As a side note, a massive driver of the collapse of classic car values in the late 80s was the default of Lloyd’s of London and the wiping out of 30,000 millionaires in the UK and US overnight. This was the large majority of classic car owners and investors and all their assets went up for sale at the same time and they stopped buying.
What is probably driving the new car demand is the exponential growth of the middle classes in the new economies.
It’s really difficult to use the late 80s as a definitive benchmark to what we are seeing now as the number of global consumers has absolutely rocketed.
If we take Aston for example, back in the 80s Victor Gauntlet was hugely reliant on his Rolodex of Middle Eastern customers. Aston had modest sales from the UK and US but was reliant on a handful of sales to the few hundred wealthy people in the ME to stay afloat. Look at the global market today and not only have the number of wealthy consumers in the US and UK grown strongly but in the ME it has increased by a factor of hundreds. Growth has been enormous. On top of that we have South America, India and China all coming in line very strongly as massive global consumers. Those three markets have gone from having a few ultra wealthy and billions of poor to hundreds of millions of wealthy middle class people all with strong consumer aspirations.
In isolation, when you look at the global consumer one almost has to wonder how companies like Aston and McLaren are selling so few cars in reality but obviously in the bigger picture the consumer has an infinitely wider range of goods to be tempted by than thirty years ago.
I’m quite sure we are in a massive credit bubble and that rising debt servicing costs will rebase many markets but I always have to warn myself against making too many comparisons to 87.
Are we talking about middle class buyers,snapping 200k cars?70k annual household income is still considered relatively flush,are retirees that wealthy?I would think that the target market for the Cayman is the done well middle class buyer and most of the sales of Mclaren and Aston are from export in the huge global market,the former's main market probably still North America.The real driver though is just the shear number of Western men of retirement age with the highest per capita income and wealth ever recorded. I believe 2017 in the UK was the year that retiree income averages surpassed that of workers.
As a side note, a massive driver of the collapse of classic car values in the late 80s was the default of Lloyd’s of London and the wiping out of 30,000 millionaires in the UK and US overnight. This was the large majority of classic car owners and investors and all their assets went up for sale at the same time and they stopped buying.
What is probably driving the new car demand is the exponential growth of the middle classes in the new economies.
It’s really difficult to use the late 80s as a definitive benchmark to what we are seeing now as the number of global consumers has absolutely rocketed.
If we take Aston for example, back in the 80s Victor Gauntlet was hugely reliant on his Rolodex of Middle Eastern customers. Aston had modest sales from the UK and US but was reliant on a handful of sales to the few hundred wealthy people in the ME to stay afloat. Look at the global market today and not only have the number of wealthy consumers in the US and UK grown strongly but in the ME it has increased by a factor of hundreds. Growth has been enormous. On top of that we have South America, India and China all coming in line very strongly as massive global consumers. Those three markets have gone from having a few ultra wealthy and billions of poor to hundreds of millions of wealthy middle class people all with strong consumer aspirations.
In isolation, when you look at the global consumer one almost has to wonder how companies like Aston and McLaren are selling so few cars in reality but obviously in the bigger picture the consumer has an infinitely wider range of goods to be tempted by than thirty years ago.
I’m quite sure we are in a massive credit bubble and that rising debt servicing costs will rebase many markets but I always have to warn myself against making too many comparisons to 87.
mainaman said:
DonkeyApple said:
To be honest there is a lot of speculative debt in the Classic market. An awful lot. But what makes it probably more secure is that the average speculator is probably running lower leverage and has more real assets.
The real driver though is just the shear number of Western men of retirement age with the highest per capita income and wealth ever recorded. I believe 2017 in the UK was the year that retiree income averages surpassed that of workers.
As a side note, a massive driver of the collapse of classic car values in the late 80s was the default of Lloyd’s of London and the wiping out of 30,000 millionaires in the UK and US overnight. This was the large majority of classic car owners and investors and all their assets went up for sale at the same time and they stopped buying.
What is probably driving the new car demand is the exponential growth of the middle classes in the new economies.
It’s really difficult to use the late 80s as a definitive benchmark to what we are seeing now as the number of global consumers has absolutely rocketed.
If we take Aston for example, back in the 80s Victor Gauntlet was hugely reliant on his Rolodex of Middle Eastern customers. Aston had modest sales from the UK and US but was reliant on a handful of sales to the few hundred wealthy people in the ME to stay afloat. Look at the global market today and not only have the number of wealthy consumers in the US and UK grown strongly but in the ME it has increased by a factor of hundreds. Growth has been enormous. On top of that we have South America, India and China all coming in line very strongly as massive global consumers. Those three markets have gone from having a few ultra wealthy and billions of poor to hundreds of millions of wealthy middle class people all with strong consumer aspirations.
In isolation, when you look at the global consumer one almost has to wonder how companies like Aston and McLaren are selling so few cars in reality but obviously in the bigger picture the consumer has an infinitely wider range of goods to be tempted by than thirty years ago.
I’m quite sure we are in a massive credit bubble and that rising debt servicing costs will rebase many markets but I always have to warn myself against making too many comparisons to 87.
Are we talking about middle class buyers,snapping 200k cars?70k annual household income is still considered relatively flush,are retirees that wealthy?I would think that the target market for the Cayman is the done well middle class buyer and most of the sales of Mclaren and Aston are from export in the huge global market,the former's main market probably still North America.The real driver though is just the shear number of Western men of retirement age with the highest per capita income and wealth ever recorded. I believe 2017 in the UK was the year that retiree income averages surpassed that of workers.
As a side note, a massive driver of the collapse of classic car values in the late 80s was the default of Lloyd’s of London and the wiping out of 30,000 millionaires in the UK and US overnight. This was the large majority of classic car owners and investors and all their assets went up for sale at the same time and they stopped buying.
What is probably driving the new car demand is the exponential growth of the middle classes in the new economies.
It’s really difficult to use the late 80s as a definitive benchmark to what we are seeing now as the number of global consumers has absolutely rocketed.
If we take Aston for example, back in the 80s Victor Gauntlet was hugely reliant on his Rolodex of Middle Eastern customers. Aston had modest sales from the UK and US but was reliant on a handful of sales to the few hundred wealthy people in the ME to stay afloat. Look at the global market today and not only have the number of wealthy consumers in the US and UK grown strongly but in the ME it has increased by a factor of hundreds. Growth has been enormous. On top of that we have South America, India and China all coming in line very strongly as massive global consumers. Those three markets have gone from having a few ultra wealthy and billions of poor to hundreds of millions of wealthy middle class people all with strong consumer aspirations.
In isolation, when you look at the global consumer one almost has to wonder how companies like Aston and McLaren are selling so few cars in reality but obviously in the bigger picture the consumer has an infinitely wider range of goods to be tempted by than thirty years ago.
I’m quite sure we are in a massive credit bubble and that rising debt servicing costs will rebase many markets but I always have to warn myself against making too many comparisons to 87.
mainaman said:
Are we talking about middle class buyers,snapping 200k cars?70k annual household income is still considered relatively flush,are retirees that wealthy?I would think that the target market for the Cayman is the done well middle class buyer and most of the sales of Mclaren and Aston are from export in the huge global market,the former's main market probably still North America.
It’s obviously all somewhat relative but a £70k household income won’t cover two sets of school fees, a nice house in the SE, several nice holidays, a healthy stock portfolio and fill a pension pot. But none of this changes the fact that the number of people earning genuine middle class incomes around the world has grown exponentially in the last 30 years.
30,000 bankrupted Names back then was enough to decimate numerous markets. Today there are over half a million in the UK alone with incomes above £250k. The level at which you can comfortably pay school fees, holiday, live in a nice house, have a portfolio, a solid pension and money left over to throw away on toy cars.
DonkeyApple said:
It’s obviously all somewhat relative but a £70k household income won’t cover two sets of school fees, a nice house in the SE, several nice holidays, a healthy stock portfolio and fill a pension pot.
But none of this changes the fact that the number of people earning genuine middle class incomes around the world has grown exponentially in the last 30 years.
30,000 bankrupted Names back then was enough to decimate numerous markets. Today there are over half a million in the UK alone with incomes above £250k. The level at which you can comfortably pay school fees, holiday, live in a nice house, have a portfolio, a solid pension and money left over to throw away on toy cars.
Yes,of course.The top 10 percent and all that,i am just not seeing anything middle class,so to speak.But none of this changes the fact that the number of people earning genuine middle class incomes around the world has grown exponentially in the last 30 years.
30,000 bankrupted Names back then was enough to decimate numerous markets. Today there are over half a million in the UK alone with incomes above £250k. The level at which you can comfortably pay school fees, holiday, live in a nice house, have a portfolio, a solid pension and money left over to throw away on toy cars.
Apparently 70 000 pounds income puts you in the top 5 percent of earners and as a trivia the engineers at McLaren are way below that threshold.
I dont doubt there is a lot of wealth around,though.There are at least eight Hermes stores in London alone,yet the bags,which cost up to Cayman money,are perpetually sold out.
Edited by mainaman on Saturday 6th January 00:02
Edited by mainaman on Saturday 6th January 00:03
Up until 2014 when I went in to semi retirement mode (only working 4 months a year or thereabouts) I was (according to what I read on the web so must be true) in the top 1% income bracket. I consider myself working class, and still do, I come from a ‘working class’ family, all fine people, and despite growing up next to a council estate and going to a secondary school, I was blessed with exceptional good looks, near genius IQ, and was a natural driving God... pretty much from birth....
I wouldn’t mind being ‘middle class’ but it really is a bit pretentious. If it wasn’t for my cockney accent (despite growing up in Sarf Lunden) I could comfortably pass myself off as upper class. Whatever that is.
Some of the above may be true
I wouldn’t mind being ‘middle class’ but it really is a bit pretentious. If it wasn’t for my cockney accent (despite growing up in Sarf Lunden) I could comfortably pass myself off as upper class. Whatever that is.
Some of the above may be true
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