Darkest Hour

[Eric Mc]

No airworthy Oxfords at all I'm afraid and the only airworthy Anson in the UK is a later version than the types in use in 1940. There is an early Anson flying in New Zealand - but that would not have been available for filming.

[nicanary]

Eric Mc said:

No airworthy Oxfords at all I'm afraid and the only airworthy Anson in the UK is a later version than the types in use in 1940. There is an early Anson flying in New Zealand - but that would not have been available for filming.

Wow. We're all so used to seeing numerous pre-war cars and bikes at meetings all over the country, it's easy to over look the fact that we no longer have these old warhorses around. They were made by the thousand, surely? I suppose they were sold for scrap like so much of the military material.

It would be (mildly) interesting to know exactly what is left over from WW2 that genuinely flew in period in RAF colours. Not much by the sound of things.

[TR4man]

mooseracer said:

Watched it on Friday - excellent film. Though wasn't the darkest hour the blitz?

I thought that too.

[TR4man]

Eric Mc said:

No airworthy Oxfords at all I'm afraid and the only airworthy Anson in the UK is a later version than the types in use in 1940. There is an early Anson flying in New Zealand - but that would not have been available for filming.

There is a nice silver Anson based at our local Sleap Aerodrome in Shropshire - is that the one you are referring to?

[deltaevo16]

he Darkest Hour is a phrase coined by British prime minister Winston Churchill to describe the period of World War II between the Fall of France in June 1940 and the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941 (totaling 363 days, or 11 months and 28 days), when the British Empire stood alone (or almost alone after the Italian invasion of Greece) against the Axis Powers in Europe. It is particularly used for the time when the United Kingdom appeared to be under direct threat of invasion; following the evacuation of the British Army from Dunkirk and prior to victory in the Battle of Britain. The darkest moment is usually considered to have been 10 May 1941, when over 1,500 civilians died in Luftwaffe bombing raids on London alone.

I really enjoyed the film, he came across as quite indecisive but then found the courage of his conviction, that War was the only way. Interesting to see how the appeasement narrative (which would have been an absolute disaster for the UK) was played out. Oldman was fantastic possibly his best role yet.

[Eric Mc]

TR4man said:

There is a nice silver Anson based at our local Sleap Aerodrome in Shropshire - is that the one you are referring to?

Actually, I'd forgotten that one. That makes two airworthy in the UK.

This is the one I initially thought of -



Technically, it's an Avro 19, which was the civilian designation for the Anson. It's the equivalent of a Mark 21, which was a post war development.

The one you are referring to is a genuine 21 -



The correct version in use in 1940 was quite different looking. This is the one currently flying in New Zealand -



In truth, in 1940 the Anson's were not being used as general transports. Their main job was as coastal patrol aircraft with RAF Coastal Command. The New Zealand example has been restored to depict one of these aircraft.

[Riley Blue]

nicanary said:

Eric Mc said:

No airworthy Oxfords at all I'm afraid and the only airworthy Anson in the UK is a later version than the types in use in 1940. There is an early Anson flying in New Zealand - but that would not have been available for filming.

Wow. We're all so used to seeing numerous pre-war cars and bikes at meetings all over the country, it's easy to over look the fact that we no longer have these old warhorses around. They were made by the thousand, surely? I suppose they were sold for scrap like so much of the military material.

It would be (mildly) interesting to know exactly what is left over from WW2 that genuinely flew in period in RAF colours. Not much by the sound of things.

As cars have now been mentioned, are reports I've had of two post-war Riley RMs appearing in the film correct?

[Dr Jekyll]

nicanary said:

Wow. We're all so used to seeing numerous pre-war cars and bikes at meetings all over the country, it's easy to over look the fact that we no longer have these old warhorses around. They were made by the thousand, surely? I suppose they were sold for scrap like so much of the military material.

It would be (mildly) interesting to know exactly what is left over from WW2 that genuinely flew in period in RAF colours. Not much by the sound of things.

What about Rapide/Dominie?

[Eric Mc]

Rapide is a good shout. There are quite a few of them around.

I'd also go with the Tiger Moth (and a few other members of the Moth family that were impressed into RAF service at the start of the war).

There is at least one Miles Magister airworthy (in the actual colours it genuinely wore in 1940).

It's the bigger transport stuff that faded away very rapidly. Indeed, a lot of what the AF were using as transports in 1940 had all gone by 1945 - aircraft such as the Harrow, Bombay, Valentia etc were pretty much obsolete even at the start of the war and were dumped as soon as something better came along (the DC-3 Dakota mostly).

The Flamingo (the type actually being used in 1940 for Churchill's personal transport) was only built in tiny numbers and the ones impressed into RAF service did not last long. Later on in the war, Churchill used a transport version of the B-24 Liberator, then an Avro York and right at the end, a C-54 (military DC-4).

[Paul Dishman]

Riley Blue said:

nicanary said:

Eric Mc said:

No airworthy Oxfords at all I'm afraid and the only airworthy Anson in the UK is a later version than the types in use in 1940. There is an early Anson flying in New Zealand - but that would not have been available for filming.

Wow. We're all so used to seeing numerous pre-war cars and bikes at meetings all over the country, it's easy to over look the fact that we no longer have these old warhorses around. They were made by the thousand, surely? I suppose they were sold for scrap like so much of the military material.

It would be (mildly) interesting to know exactly what is left over from WW2 that genuinely flew in period in RAF colours. Not much by the sound of things.

As cars have now been mentioned, are reports I've had of two post-war Riley RMs appearing in the film correct?

I spotted one Riley as well as a Ford Anglia which I thought was post-war.

[XCP]

Roofless Toothless said:

Actually Eric, I was more annoyed by the total lack of historical accuracy or credibility of the tube train episode. The last half hour ruined what was an interesting film up to that point.

Oh, and of course, the way the ash on the end of Churchill's cigar had a habit of getting longer and shorter as they cut between shots in some scenes. Continuity nowhere.

His bodyguard, Insp Thompson, would have been with him virtually all the time, certainly on a trip on an underground train.

[kev1974]

Sadly I found Darkest Hour quite dull; Gary Oldman is good, but two hours of him barking at everyone became a bit much for me.

The implication seemed to be that the whole Dunkirk Evacuation was Churchill's idea (the film showed him phoning his friends in the Admiralty and telling them what to do) which I don't think is the case at all? Sure he supported it but I don't think he came up with the idea or plan?

The tube train bit also hurt the film - "as if" that ever happened like that. Problem is - and this is a danger with many films that portray history and indeed The Crown, which makes stuff up all over the place - is that kids of today get a lot of their history knowledge from films and tv series like this, and will start to believe the tube train bit was real and actually happened.

I did think it has a great soundtrack, beautiful cinematography in places such as the long slowmo shots from the car window; and they did a tremendous job of casting / makeup / costume on some of the side characters - Chamberlain, Lord Halifax, and King Bertie all looked so "right". Lots of other familiar Brit actors scattered in amongst the parliamentarians as well.

The House of Commons scenes looked good, they had made it look nicely dark and gloomy. Do they get to film in the real House of Commons or are there so many films featuring it that there is a permanent set for it at Pinewood or somewhere?

[ChocolateFrog]

Thoroughly enjoyed it, Oldman should be nailed on for best actor at the Oscars.

[RicksAlfas]

Riley Blue said:

As cars have now been mentioned, are reports I've had of two post-war Riley RMs appearing in the film correct?

According to a letter in The Sunday Times, there is a postwar Bedford lorry, a 1949-53 Ford Anglia, a 1954 Riley RME, and Churchill’s Wolseley had a postwar registration.

I haven’t heard anything about the upholstery on the underground train...yet.

[anonymous-user]

Eric Mc said:

In 1940, Churchill was generally being ferried around in a De Havilland DH95 Flamingo. The number of surviving DH95s is precisely none - so the film makers would have been hard pushed to find one.

In an era of CGI the availability of actual aircraft is irrelevant.

[justinio]

jinkster said:

I wonder how many cigars they through during the filming.

The reported number is $20,000 worth. So many that he suffered nicotine poisoning.

[anonymous-user]

Just watched it.
Oldman is excellent, but apart from the speeches found it a dull plod overall.

[Supercilious Sid]

It was like a British Lincoln. Pretty boring political machinations. Though filmed well.

[Eric Mc]

Crossflow Kid said:

Eric Mc said:

In 1940, Churchill was generally being ferried around in a De Havilland DH95 Flamingo. The number of surviving DH95s is precisely none - so the film makers would have been hard pushed to find one.

In an era of CGI the availability of actual aircraft is irrelevant.

In theory that is correct. In reality, the CGI renditions of World War 2 aircraft so far have not been great. However, a shot of a DH95 on the ground could have been convincing because the CGI people would not be trying to make it "fly right" (which is where CGI aeroplanes in films always seem to fail;.

[john2443]

RicksAlfas said:

According to a letter in The Sunday Times, there is a postwar Bedford lorry, a 1949-53 Ford Anglia, a 1954 Riley RME, and Churchill’s Wolseley had a postwar registration.

I haven’t heard anything about the upholstery on the underground train...yet.

I went to see it based on rave reviews, I'm afraid that they lost my enthusiasm when Churchill said something like 'I've never ridden a bus' and he said similar things again later. I'm sure this is a modern Americanism, surely he would have said 'ridden ON a bus' or 'been on a bus'?

Either it was written by a young person who has been over influenced by the 'mercans or it's written for them in case they don't understand English.

Yep - cars, Riley RME (s) appear a few times and the Anglia - these really are schoolboy errors, who ever organised the cars wants sacking, there are plenty of pre war cars still around, just take the trouble to check, it's easy with the web to check! I didn't spot any reg numbers.

I also wasn't convinced that he got the tube and asked people what they thought - seems a bit unlikely - anyone know if it was true?

Oh, and finally, when he got on the tube it sat for ages in the station after the doors closed and then ages at the destination after doors opened. They needed the time to get all the drama in, but I'm not convinced the tube was ever that slow!

Overall, it's 2 hours of my life that I won't get back!