RE: Prior Convictions: Back to the Future
Friday 9th February 2018
News has reached PH towers of the launch of FCA Heritage, "a world of stories, events and services" surrounding old Alfa Romeos, Fiats, Lancias and Abarths.
It is a place where, right now, you can buy an immaculately restored Alfa Romeo SZ. Which, given the wherewithal, is something I would do immediately.
At the upcoming Geneva Motor Show David Brown Automotive, whose projects have so far involved recreating Minis and that weird Speedback GT thing, will launch another car.
All of which is fine, I suppose. Lovely, even. But is it right? Or does it stunt interesting new areas of the business because all of the interesting things are in the old section?
Prior Convictions: Back to the Future
How looking to the past is helping car companies survive in the present
Offering cars "reloaded by creators", then, which I think means 'rebuilt by mechanics, but near the factory', it is FCA digging into the back catalogue, restoring old cars, selling them to you, and creating some events around them.
It's happening because heritage is modern. Old is the new, er, new. Nostalgia, quite literally, ain't what it used to be: it is one of the biggest growth areas in the business.
FCA's venture, see, comes on the back of lots of other announcements. Jaguar says it'll make a series of D-Type Continuations. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity Jag said, with no apparent irony, about its third Continuation model in four years.
And so too will Manifattura Automobile Torino, who seem to have finally been given permission, from whoever they needed it from, to build 25 Lancia Stratos-esque cars underpinned by V8 Ferrari mechanicals.
Those are only this week's announcements. Aston Martin has been in on it too, Zagato also, while unofficially there are companies like Icon with 4x4s, Singer with Porsche 911s, and dozens of tuners, retailers and event-owners making classics a growth industry like never before, comfort-feeding our apparent unending fascination with the old-but-not-old. It's like some kind of automotive mid-life crisis, as we regress to avoid the muffin tops and lethargy brought to us by crash structures and emissions regulations.
Perhaps it is the car business moving as the horse business did more than a century ago, to become less about business, and more about leisure. I suppose we'll see, but I'd be surprised if it is a trend that goes away. There's little new in cinema. There are only seven basic plots in fiction. Today I will drink tea just like I did when I was twelve. Should we really be surprised that cars mirror life?
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[Source: Autocar]
Discussion
I remember visiting an international scool in Regents Park or Hyde Park in London around 2006 and a student had make a 'homage' to the Lancia.
Dull piece in many ways IMO crumple zones and emmissions both can be dealt with to a fair degree with a cage and a well tuned engine, how about things like the interior I doubt much of that would meet current regulations.
A pal uses a BMW '02 as his daily it has a boot that will hold an engine and gearbox or two, never in 8 years as it broken down, gets mid 30's mpg partly down to the 5 speed box. Oh and no tax, congestion charge or Dart bridge tax either.
Dull piece in many ways IMO crumple zones and emmissions both can be dealt with to a fair degree with a cage and a well tuned engine, how about things like the interior I doubt much of that would meet current regulations.
A pal uses a BMW '02 as his daily it has a boot that will hold an engine and gearbox or two, never in 8 years as it broken down, gets mid 30's mpg partly down to the 5 speed box. Oh and no tax, congestion charge or Dart bridge tax either.
I'm not convinced that these 'official replicas' are really being run as a serious income stream, in such small numbers. I imagine that the point of Jaguar putting together another 25 D-Types isn't to profit directly, but to remind us all of their, to be fair, glorious heritage, and thus make us more inclined to buy, say, an F-Type of some variety.
The fact is that 'white goods' commodity cars are, well, commodities, and like all commodities their selling price naturally falls to equal the cost of production. Which is why companies like GM Europe etc are so often in the headlines along with words such as losses, restructuring, and redundancies. With lower-cost China coming on-stream as a car manufacturer, it won't even be possible for developed countries' factories to sell boring cars at break-even any more.
On the other hand, while anyone can make a car, only Jaguar can make a Jaguar, only they can present a car in styling and nomenclature as the true inheritor of the legacy of the C, D and E-type. You may be able to buy a cheaper GT car, but you can't buy a cheaper Jaguar. With brand value being the only reliable differentiator and source of profit, companies are now taking a long-overdue interest in supporting their heritage.
I think these new old cars being sold for a small fortune are really sad. It's just a little money spinner really.. It's not that it dilutes the magic of the old cars or anything (although it does a bit), it's that they bring nothing to the world. They're just pointless. We've been there, we've done that.
And I think it's tragic that, with what,15, maybe 20 years left with petrol as the prime fuel of sports cars? That manufacturers aren't working towards creating something celebrating the fuel that has transformed the planet. Instead they're making throwback cars, or cars so completely focused on speed that the means no longer matter, as long as the result is fast. The joys of a potentially good car are lost in the dreary turbo engine noise, the excessive sound deadening (well obviously ones supercar cannot be compromised in any way...
), the automatic f
king gearbox... All of which will mean the petrol powered car will go out with a whimper, as children gather to whoop at the "numbers" the new Porsche all electric car posts. There'll be nothing to miss, they've lost most of what makes a petrol car great already.
Someone will create the pinnacle of analogue cars soon enough - not a computer in the car. No direct injection, no fuel injection.. A proper carburetor fed engine, but designed in the 21st century with the precision now achievable. The best steering of all time, the best brakes of all time, the best gearshift of all time. They'll get the core of the car absolutely "right" - the best a machine can be, compromises and all. It'll have timeless styling - not feminine, not aggressive, not showy, not subtle. It'll be made entirely from the most exotic modern materials. And when every car made after 1990 is dead and beyond repair, the simplicity of the mechanicals in this car will there for all to see. It'll be magnificent.
Good ol wine.
And I think it's tragic that, with what,15, maybe 20 years left with petrol as the prime fuel of sports cars? That manufacturers aren't working towards creating something celebrating the fuel that has transformed the planet. Instead they're making throwback cars, or cars so completely focused on speed that the means no longer matter, as long as the result is fast. The joys of a potentially good car are lost in the dreary turbo engine noise, the excessive sound deadening (well obviously ones supercar cannot be compromised in any way...
), the automatic fking gearbox... All of which will mean the petrol powered car will go out with a whimper, as children gather to whoop at the "numbers" the new Porsche all electric car posts. There'll be nothing to miss, they've lost most of what makes a petrol car great already. Someone will create the pinnacle of analogue cars soon enough - not a computer in the car. No direct injection, no fuel injection.. A proper carburetor fed engine, but designed in the 21st century with the precision now achievable. The best steering of all time, the best brakes of all time, the best gearshift of all time. They'll get the core of the car absolutely "right" - the best a machine can be, compromises and all. It'll have timeless styling - not feminine, not aggressive, not showy, not subtle. It'll be made entirely from the most exotic modern materials. And when every car made after 1990 is dead and beyond repair, the simplicity of the mechanicals in this car will there for all to see. It'll be magnificent.
Good ol wine.
Manufacturers have woken up to the fact that designs pre-dating stringent EU regs were far more striking and adventurous.
In an age of bloated homogenized blobs this trend is a good thing
And there will always be enough customers with discerning taste for limited run designs which create a halo effect for the brand.
In an age of bloated homogenized blobs this trend is a good thing
And there will always be enough customers with discerning taste for limited run designs which create a halo effect for the brand.
Edited by sparta6 on Saturday 10th February 12:19
I am all for these companies making these re-imagined classics. They are lovely and if they come with better reliability, performance, stopping etc great.
I've always said if I had the money I would have a classic cruiser such as a Mercedes(Such as a W108) with all modern running gear underneath and a upgraded interior as a daily rather than a modern eurobox.
I've always said if I had the money I would have a classic cruiser such as a Mercedes(Such as a W108) with all modern running gear underneath and a upgraded interior as a daily rather than a modern eurobox.
anotherGreasyNut said:
A pal uses a BMW '02 as his daily it has a boot that will hold an engine and gearbox or two, never in 8 years as it broken down, gets mid 30's mpg partly down to the 5 speed box. Oh and no tax, congestion charge or Dart bridge tax either.
Is Dart Charge not applicable to historics?Gemaeden said:
anotherGreasyNut said:
A pal uses a BMW '02 as his daily it has a boot that will hold an engine and gearbox or two, never in 8 years as it broken down, gets mid 30's mpg partly down to the 5 speed box. Oh and no tax, congestion charge or Dart bridge tax either.
Is Dart Charge not applicable to historics?"Who is Exempt
Mopeds, Motorcycles, Tricycles and Quadricycles can use the crossing for free.
Vehicles that are currently exempt from the road user charge will still be exempt this includes vehicles exempt from excise duty,
if they are used by or used to transport someone with a disability.
It is the vehicle that is exempt not the person, so blue badge users still liable for the charge
Got a question
Dart Charge Customer Service 0300 300 0120
www.gov.uk/dart-charge"
Niche marketing is great. If not for niche marketing we'd all be driving black Model Ts
The biggest niche in the Classic Car market has always been looks - retro-cool; design aesthetics.
Arguably the prettiest cars of all time were almost all designed in few years during the 60s.
The biggest bone of contention has always been how far restoration should go into modification. I've always been firmly in the resto-mod camp. Caveat being how rare is the car and the condition it begins with, because when there are only a handful of examples of a car then radical changes are probably unwarranted. But if it's that rare it becomes an exhibit, and not a car. A car is to be driven.
But when there are lots of any given model then why not?
Of course some parts of a car are consumable, and destined to be replaced, if so why not replace with better?
Dramatically changing the exterior appearance is another question altogether and takes the argument into customisation, which is a subjective, beauty being in the eye of the beholder. If you pays your money, you takes your choice - again the caveat of rarity is worth applying here, but otherwise more power to variety. I don't have to like it, to approve of the choice in principle.
In short making a car - any car, old or new out of the box, go better, stop faster, go faster, well that just seems right to me.
But then again I am of an age ( meaning I'm grown up enough now to be able to use the phrase, I am of an age) to remember the miserable era of the late 70s to 80s.
As a kid in the 90s, driving a Classic actually got you more bangs for your buck. Faced with the choice of Triumph GT6 vs a MkIII Ford Escort at the same price point, for me there was no choice.
In fact if you wanted a convertible there was a very limited choice, the only mainstream manufacture IIRC was Mercedes. For a young lad wanting an affordable car with go and style, you pretty much had go old. Old got you a more involving rear drive, and thanks to a Jensen Healey in my case wind in your hair. Back in the day when I wasn't grown up I had that hair ( of course it was the 90s so long at the front curtains style, so I wore a cap to keep it out of my eyes ).
Legislation, economics, and the industry consensus had all but killed the convertible, and stifled the sports car.
Legislation and wage costs made cars boxy, and ugly - IMO. The Jaguar XJ6 had curves, the XJ40s box shape was easier ie cheaper to press.
A lot changed. #MX5 And of course a certain British Sportscar maker gave birth to Pistonheads.
Tech changed these things. Last 20 years has seen more interesting shapes, and the convertible came back. But it wasn't because not having a roof suddenly became so much safer. (although Mercedes did that snap up in a micro-seconds roll bar) but because we the consumer were happy to compromise, and Marketing was a thing now. Welcome to segmentation.
But in reality we bought TVRs not because they were safe, or quiet, etc., but because they were fast, and looked great standing still.
To be honest the driving experience between an older - often relatively more expensive car, now depreciated vs a modern but newer box in the 90s was not so different, weight of powerless steering, heft of the gear lever, etc.
Today when the average super-mini satisfies the Classic definition of a GT car, 300 miles range at over 100 miles an hour, the difference in driving dynamics is less clear cut. Once luxury options, like power steering, windows, and air con are now so standard kids today don't know they are born, said my Granddad who never took a driving test about syncromesh.
Classics provide driver involvement, manual box, direct steering and brakes, but again these things are only as good as the aged components, which brings us back to restoration to modification.
And to looks.
While things are better than the boxy days of old, mostly, Bangle BMWs I look at you, for shame the ugly, the industry/safety/ and rounding from better aerodynamics has given us a new boxy, a mean look. ( I mean average not angry )
With the fat blocking your view pillars, and enlarging crumple zones - cars are often harder to see out of, and generally bigger.
I parked my Audi 80, that someone in Stuttgart had stuck Porsche bits on in the 90s next to a current 3 series, it look positively wee next to the Beemer, which probably has the foot print of the 90s 5 series.
My conclusion is that there is a market for resto-mods, (and I suspect coach building is coming back for the same reasons) because I want great looking ( subjective as that value judgment maybe ) cars that were designed to snap nicker elastic* not to please the passage of air in a wind tunnel. Great looking cars that stop faster and go faster, and start in the morning, because I am willing to trade passive safety, for active safety of better brakes and a great glass house ( or no glass house in the way of the convertible ) all in a smaller package, because size isn't everything. Actually check that, in the real world of my UK, size is a actually a great deal, if like me you want to be able to overtake on B roads.
Although it seems many people aren't old enough to remember overtaking. But that's another topic.
The biggest niche in the Classic Car market has always been looks - retro-cool; design aesthetics.
Arguably the prettiest cars of all time were almost all designed in few years during the 60s.
The biggest bone of contention has always been how far restoration should go into modification. I've always been firmly in the resto-mod camp. Caveat being how rare is the car and the condition it begins with, because when there are only a handful of examples of a car then radical changes are probably unwarranted. But if it's that rare it becomes an exhibit, and not a car. A car is to be driven.
But when there are lots of any given model then why not?
Of course some parts of a car are consumable, and destined to be replaced, if so why not replace with better?
Dramatically changing the exterior appearance is another question altogether and takes the argument into customisation, which is a subjective, beauty being in the eye of the beholder. If you pays your money, you takes your choice - again the caveat of rarity is worth applying here, but otherwise more power to variety. I don't have to like it, to approve of the choice in principle.
In short making a car - any car, old or new out of the box, go better, stop faster, go faster, well that just seems right to me.
But then again I am of an age ( meaning I'm grown up enough now to be able to use the phrase, I am of an age) to remember the miserable era of the late 70s to 80s.
As a kid in the 90s, driving a Classic actually got you more bangs for your buck. Faced with the choice of Triumph GT6 vs a MkIII Ford Escort at the same price point, for me there was no choice.
In fact if you wanted a convertible there was a very limited choice, the only mainstream manufacture IIRC was Mercedes. For a young lad wanting an affordable car with go and style, you pretty much had go old. Old got you a more involving rear drive, and thanks to a Jensen Healey in my case wind in your hair. Back in the day when I wasn't grown up I had that hair ( of course it was the 90s so long at the front curtains style, so I wore a cap to keep it out of my eyes ).
Legislation, economics, and the industry consensus had all but killed the convertible, and stifled the sports car.
Legislation and wage costs made cars boxy, and ugly - IMO. The Jaguar XJ6 had curves, the XJ40s box shape was easier ie cheaper to press.
A lot changed. #MX5 And of course a certain British Sportscar maker gave birth to Pistonheads.
Tech changed these things. Last 20 years has seen more interesting shapes, and the convertible came back. But it wasn't because not having a roof suddenly became so much safer. (although Mercedes did that snap up in a micro-seconds roll bar) but because we the consumer were happy to compromise, and Marketing was a thing now. Welcome to segmentation.
But in reality we bought TVRs not because they were safe, or quiet, etc., but because they were fast, and looked great standing still.
To be honest the driving experience between an older - often relatively more expensive car, now depreciated vs a modern but newer box in the 90s was not so different, weight of powerless steering, heft of the gear lever, etc.
Today when the average super-mini satisfies the Classic definition of a GT car, 300 miles range at over 100 miles an hour, the difference in driving dynamics is less clear cut. Once luxury options, like power steering, windows, and air con are now so standard kids today don't know they are born, said my Granddad who never took a driving test about syncromesh.
Classics provide driver involvement, manual box, direct steering and brakes, but again these things are only as good as the aged components, which brings us back to restoration to modification.
And to looks.
While things are better than the boxy days of old, mostly, Bangle BMWs I look at you, for shame the ugly, the industry/safety/ and rounding from better aerodynamics has given us a new boxy, a mean look. ( I mean average not angry )
With the fat blocking your view pillars, and enlarging crumple zones - cars are often harder to see out of, and generally bigger.
I parked my Audi 80, that someone in Stuttgart had stuck Porsche bits on in the 90s next to a current 3 series, it look positively wee next to the Beemer, which probably has the foot print of the 90s 5 series.
My conclusion is that there is a market for resto-mods, (and I suspect coach building is coming back for the same reasons) because I want great looking ( subjective as that value judgment maybe ) cars that were designed to snap nicker elastic* not to please the passage of air in a wind tunnel. Great looking cars that stop faster and go faster, and start in the morning, because I am willing to trade passive safety, for active safety of better brakes and a great glass house ( or no glass house in the way of the convertible ) all in a smaller package, because size isn't everything. Actually check that, in the real world of my UK, size is a actually a great deal, if like me you want to be able to overtake on B roads.
Although it seems many people aren't old enough to remember overtaking. But that's another topic.
- olde Clarkson reference.
That updated Stratos is very very nice. Perhaps 25 will become 250? .
Sounds all good, classic cars restored by people who know their stuff using the backdoors of the factory. Buying an old racetrack in France would seem like. Good idea to do tours to and from.
Sounds all good, classic cars restored by people who know their stuff using the backdoors of the factory. Buying an old racetrack in France would seem like. Good idea to do tours to and from.
Edited by smilo996 on Sunday 11th February 19:04
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