Tell me about British Leyland
Discussion
Ali G said:
Who needs 5 gears when "Overdrive" can be engaged?
Engage Overdrive - make it so.
I had a 3.8 Mark 2 Jaguar for many years, and although its performance would be seen as quite unimpressive by modern standards, it was a very strong performer in its day. Mine was a 1962 car with manual transmission, which was a 4 speed gearbox plus overdrive, and I liked the arrangement very much.Engage Overdrive - make it so.
Given that the car would pull quite strongly from 20 mph in 4th gear, quite a large proportion of normal driving could be accomplished by merely switching between 4th gear and the overdrive, with no need to use the clutch or gear lever. IIRC the mph/1000 rpm figures for the car were 20.9 in 4th gear and 26.4 in overdrive, which was decently high gearing for that period.
Presumably overdrive units fell from favour on grounds of the overall cost of the transmission, and possible reliability problems with the overdrive. I expect it was cheaper to produce a 5 speed gearbox rather than a 4 speed gearbox plus overdrive. I covered about 80,000 miles in that car, but so far as reliability was concerned I had no problems with the overdrive.
This is a great thread.
Growing up my dad was a Ford man through and through. They paid his wages, he bought their cars. So I had little to do with BL products day-to-day.
I remember my grandad had a Dolomite Sprint though. Green with a black vinyl roof, he'd had it from new and it was around the late 1970s when I got to the age where I can remember taking more of an interest in cars, so I'd guess it would have ben a 1975 car or thereabouts. An uncle also had a white MGB GT which I remember as not having rear seats, just a shelf of sorts. It didn't stop him giving us kids lifts back from the beach in it though, which we would literally beg for (and fight over), as his was the "coolest" car in the extended family.
I was too young to recall much detail about reliability, but I do know that my dad did a LOT of work on the driveway, mostly on other people's cars. He didn't like BL products very much, but his particular hatred was reserved for the Vauxhall Viva.
Mostly, though, childhood for me was a succession of Cortinas, Consuls, and Granadas. Dad always had at least one Ford on the drive, and my uncles mostly had medium/large Ford saloons too.
I have one question for the BL 'beards' though.
Looking at the Austin Maxi specifically, I see that the last MAXI 2 ( LOV 476X ) came off the line in July 1981 and now resides at Gaydon. Yet I have a clear memory of a local woman driving a beige Maxi 1750 HL wearing an 'A' prefix plate which would suggest it was registered as late as '83/'84. Is this possible/likely. My memories are quite clear about the plate too, because she nearly ran me over in it, and as a result of the near miss she stopped to apologise. Despite her being a good 11 years my senior, she became the woman who would introduce me to "the sins of the flesh'. This was in the summer of 1989 and she was a single mum working two jobs at a local beach cafe and evenings as a petrol station cashier, and a Maxi was all she could afford to buy (and then only just). It's now puzzling me about the 'A' plate, although I do recall that CEM Day's Ford dealership was reputed to have (could be the classic urban myth) a brand new, unregistered 2.8i Capri floating around in storage a few years after they'd gone out of production, so maybe it wasn't so unusual to have unsold "stock" cars back in those days...
And while we're on the subject of the Maxi...
The "Aquila" one-off design concept, based on the Maxi and the result of a design competition for the 1973 Earls Court Motor Show. Not entirely out of the Maxi parts bin though - those are definitely Allegro door handles...
Growing up my dad was a Ford man through and through. They paid his wages, he bought their cars. So I had little to do with BL products day-to-day.
I remember my grandad had a Dolomite Sprint though. Green with a black vinyl roof, he'd had it from new and it was around the late 1970s when I got to the age where I can remember taking more of an interest in cars, so I'd guess it would have ben a 1975 car or thereabouts. An uncle also had a white MGB GT which I remember as not having rear seats, just a shelf of sorts. It didn't stop him giving us kids lifts back from the beach in it though, which we would literally beg for (and fight over), as his was the "coolest" car in the extended family.
I was too young to recall much detail about reliability, but I do know that my dad did a LOT of work on the driveway, mostly on other people's cars. He didn't like BL products very much, but his particular hatred was reserved for the Vauxhall Viva.
Mostly, though, childhood for me was a succession of Cortinas, Consuls, and Granadas. Dad always had at least one Ford on the drive, and my uncles mostly had medium/large Ford saloons too.
I have one question for the BL 'beards' though.
Looking at the Austin Maxi specifically, I see that the last MAXI 2 ( LOV 476X ) came off the line in July 1981 and now resides at Gaydon. Yet I have a clear memory of a local woman driving a beige Maxi 1750 HL wearing an 'A' prefix plate which would suggest it was registered as late as '83/'84. Is this possible/likely. My memories are quite clear about the plate too, because she nearly ran me over in it, and as a result of the near miss she stopped to apologise. Despite her being a good 11 years my senior, she became the woman who would introduce me to "the sins of the flesh'. This was in the summer of 1989 and she was a single mum working two jobs at a local beach cafe and evenings as a petrol station cashier, and a Maxi was all she could afford to buy (and then only just). It's now puzzling me about the 'A' plate, although I do recall that CEM Day's Ford dealership was reputed to have (could be the classic urban myth) a brand new, unregistered 2.8i Capri floating around in storage a few years after they'd gone out of production, so maybe it wasn't so unusual to have unsold "stock" cars back in those days...
And while we're on the subject of the Maxi...
The "Aquila" one-off design concept, based on the Maxi and the result of a design competition for the 1973 Earls Court Motor Show. Not entirely out of the Maxi parts bin though - those are definitely Allegro door handles...
Ivy family had a series of BL cars; Austin 1100s, Austin 1800s, Marina, Rover SD1, etc. I was taught by my Dad in an Austin 1800 Landcrab, and then had proper lessons from a driving instructor in a Datsun 120Y. The difference was night and day; the Datsun gear change was literally unbelievable, so smooth and effortless, where every previous FWD effort we had had fought back to some extent. The controls were easy and light, and the car never felt like it was pushing back against you. Clearly the Jap stuff was designed with the end user's convenience and ease of use in mind, whereas the BL stuff was designed by an engineer who wasn't really bothered about the end user experience.
The Landcrab would barely do a 7 point turn, never mind a 3 point turn (do you still do these on a driving test?), and I remember to this day the whiny gearboxes, thrashy engines, and style-free interiors that characterised the FWD range.
On the other hand, I've also owned numerous MGs, Spitfires and Jags, driven some belting Triumph saloons, and still think some of the 60s/70s BL sports/saloon styling was among the best ever. Austin/Morris just seemed like a dead end, and indeed a dead weight, where the future could have been the niche marques. They didn't understand that punters preferred Cortinas and Vauxhalls because they looked good, were simple to maintain and service, and had a certain flash appeal.
My solidly middle class parents didn't care for that element of flash and liked the old-school British thing. My Dad really wanted a Jag, which he had all through his retirement until he passed away, but settled for a series of Rovers in his last 10 years of employment. Austins and Morrises were like a stepping stone on the path to Rovers and ultimately Jags.
The Landcrab would barely do a 7 point turn, never mind a 3 point turn (do you still do these on a driving test?), and I remember to this day the whiny gearboxes, thrashy engines, and style-free interiors that characterised the FWD range.
On the other hand, I've also owned numerous MGs, Spitfires and Jags, driven some belting Triumph saloons, and still think some of the 60s/70s BL sports/saloon styling was among the best ever. Austin/Morris just seemed like a dead end, and indeed a dead weight, where the future could have been the niche marques. They didn't understand that punters preferred Cortinas and Vauxhalls because they looked good, were simple to maintain and service, and had a certain flash appeal.
My solidly middle class parents didn't care for that element of flash and liked the old-school British thing. My Dad really wanted a Jag, which he had all through his retirement until he passed away, but settled for a series of Rovers in his last 10 years of employment. Austins and Morrises were like a stepping stone on the path to Rovers and ultimately Jags.
Hammer67 said:
I started my working life at a BL dealership in 1983 as a 16yo parts apprentice. We had the whole raft of BL marques which also included Land Rover and Leyland Trucks at the time.
It was only a medium size place in a rural town but the parts operation was massive.The parts dept had probably more staff than the rest of the dealership put together.
Sounds like Vincents in Yeovil........?It was only a medium size place in a rural town but the parts operation was massive.The parts dept had probably more staff than the rest of the dealership put together.
iSore said:
Hammer67 said:
I started my working life at a BL dealership in 1983 as a 16yo parts apprentice. We had the whole raft of BL marques which also included Land Rover and Leyland Trucks at the time.
It was only a medium size place in a rural town but the parts operation was massive.The parts dept had probably more staff than the rest of the dealership put together.
Sounds like Vincents in Yeovil........?It was only a medium size place in a rural town but the parts operation was massive.The parts dept had probably more staff than the rest of the dealership put together.
Made around 1976 ish. The lovely Liz Sladen of Dr Who fame in there as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUmebnaTP4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUmebnaTP4
Who'd have thought it...
https://jalopnik.com/guess-what-this-austin-allegr...
One piece of '80s junk "improved" by shoe-horning another piece of 80's junk into it!
https://jalopnik.com/guess-what-this-austin-allegr...
One piece of '80s junk "improved" by shoe-horning another piece of 80's junk into it!
I 've really been enjoying reading this thread. I think it's clear that there were lots of innovative ideas both in engineering and body styles - I thought that the facelift Michelotti Triumphs were very good looking and easily recognisable. I'm less sure about the V8 engine which I think was Triumph's own idea, using in essence two of the Ricardo designed OHC four cylinders in a common block. Why bother when the Rover V8 already existed? As I'm sure readers will know, the "four" was a joint enterprise with Saab, who later developed it into the B type engine as used in the 99 in "normal" and turbo form. I remember reading about the Dolomite Sprint at school and was later surprised that the TR7 didn't use that engine, which I believe some modern owners have done.
Perseverant said:
I 've really been enjoying reading this thread. I think it's clear that there were lots of innovative ideas both in engineering and body styles - I thought that the facelift Michelotti Triumphs were very good looking and easily recognisable. I'm less sure about the V8 engine which I think was Triumph's own idea, using in essence two of the Ricardo designed OHC four cylinders in a common block. Why bother when the Rover V8 already existed? As I'm sure readers will know, the "four" was a joint enterprise with Saab, who later developed it into the B type engine as used in the 99 in "normal" and turbo form. I remember reading about the Dolomite Sprint at school and was later surprised that the TR7 didn't use that engine, which I believe some modern owners have done.
Although the Triumph TR8 used the Rover unit.Berw said:
One thing people forget is that because we drive on the left, we were the easy market for the Japanese car industry to attack when they decided to export, they did not export to the UK first because our cars were worse than Germany or France as is often portrayed.
Actually, the Japanese started with Australia (and SA?)RHD, and relatively close to Japan / far from Europe, so they had an advantage on shipping costs. We got loads of stuff that never made it to Europe in the 60's and 70's : Datsun 1600 (510), skylines, 240z, Mitsubishi Colt, etc.
BL (and Ford) didn't have much that compared at the budget end of the market.
Aus was also the first export market for the Landcruiser, IIRC.
But neither SA or Aus salt the roads in winter, so the they didn't really test rustproofing.
If only they'd given more thought to the BGT V8... The oil crises and focus on the TR7 (with American market potential) killed it off 
Great article about them here... http://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/csc-featur...
I had mine for about three years, and enjoyed every minute of it... Easy to work on, practical, easy to drive, and great fun, although it was a thirsty little beast... I really shouldn't have sold it, but a TVR beckoned...
Here's a few pics..
Great article about them here... http://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/csc-featur...
I had mine for about three years, and enjoyed every minute of it... Easy to work on, practical, easy to drive, and great fun, although it was a thirsty little beast... I really shouldn't have sold it, but a TVR beckoned...
Here's a few pics..
Edited by ChilliWhizz on Wednesday 21st February 11:11
I can echo the Alfasud 'experience' too,
[*]One of my Dad's rare divergences from the BL stable was to buy a brand new Alfa Romeo Alfasud 1.5Ti QV. It needed welding for its first MoT. It needed welding for its second MoT. It needed new front wings for its third MoT. It needed welding for its fourth MoT. So he sold it. Even the worst of his 1970s-BL-in-full-crisis-Mk3 Minis weren't that bad!
The wings had rusted through, due to the supurbly designed rust trap that was the joint of the wings to the body. They came away at the top edge half way through Bristol, and were held in place for the rest of the holiday by looping black 'leccy tape round and through the wings/bodywork. No BL pruduct was ever as bad, but lets face it, the Alfasud was Alfas version of BL, the SUD part, being the problem. MAZDA 1300 Sedan, takes the prize for rusting, every door bottom fell out, and the timing chain snapped on the drive, chopped in for a Chevette E, which refused to die, or rust !!!!!!!!!
[*]One of my Dad's rare divergences from the BL stable was to buy a brand new Alfa Romeo Alfasud 1.5Ti QV. It needed welding for its first MoT. It needed welding for its second MoT. It needed new front wings for its third MoT. It needed welding for its fourth MoT. So he sold it. Even the worst of his 1970s-BL-in-full-crisis-Mk3 Minis weren't that bad!
The wings had rusted through, due to the supurbly designed rust trap that was the joint of the wings to the body. They came away at the top edge half way through Bristol, and were held in place for the rest of the holiday by looping black 'leccy tape round and through the wings/bodywork. No BL pruduct was ever as bad, but lets face it, the Alfasud was Alfas version of BL, the SUD part, being the problem. MAZDA 1300 Sedan, takes the prize for rusting, every door bottom fell out, and the timing chain snapped on the drive, chopped in for a Chevette E, which refused to die, or rust !!!!!!!!!
Berw said:
One thing people forget is that because we drive on the left, we were the easy market for the Japanese car industry to attack when they decided to export, they did not export to the UK first because our cars were worse than Germany or France as is often portrayed.
But the Japanese also went in pretty hard in The States. Renowned makers of LHD s
tboxes.yellowjack said:
It's now puzzling me about the 'A' plate, although I do recall that CEM Day's Ford dealership was reputed to have (could be the classic urban myth) a brand new, unregistered 2.8i Capri floating around in storage a few years after they'd gone out of production, so maybe it wasn't so unusual to have unsold "stock" cars back in those days....
That's entirely possible, and not just with BL stuff. Ford dealers at the same time (correctly) predicted that many stalwart Cortina buyers would hate the Sierra and horded stocks of the last MkV Cortinas. The last of those was built in 1982 but you can find examples which didn't make it onto the roads until 1986 or even 1987. In the case of the Maxi it was always a slow-selling model which generally had excess production, especially in the 1980s when it was very dated in comparison to the competition. The fact that everyone knew that BL had the Maestro in the works, scheduled for launch in 1982, also helped slow Maxi and Allegro sales. So it's very possible that a late-build Maxi hung around on a dealer's backlot (or, more likely, a windswept Midlands airfield) for 18 months or so.
damianke said:
Ivy family had a series of BL cars; Austin 1100s, Austin 1800s, Marina, Rover SD1, etc. I was taught by my Dad in an Austin 1800 Landcrab, and then had proper lessons from a driving instructor in a Datsun 120Y. The difference was night and day; the Datsun gear change was literally unbelievable, so smooth and effortless, where every previous FWD effort we had had fought back to some extent. The controls were easy and light, and the car never felt like it was pushing back against you. Clearly the Jap stuff was designed with the end user's convenience and ease of use in mind, whereas the BL stuff was designed by an engineer who wasn't really bothered about the end user experience.
The Landcrab would barely do a 7 point turn, never mind a 3 point turn (do you still do these on a driving test?), and I remember to this day the whiny gearboxes, thrashy engines, and style-free interiors that characterised the FWD range.
Exactly so. It's ironic because Datsuns used a lot of technology that had its roots at BMC. The 120Y's engine was an enlarged and improved BMC A-Series (with an eight-port cylinder head), and the Datsun 510 which secured the reputation for Japanese reliability in much of the world had Datsun's licensed copy of the B-Series. But both engines were improved in the typical Japanese way -five bearing cranks, brand new tooling with much tighter and more consistent tolerances and unified bolt and fixings sizes (so you only needed three spanners to dismantle a Nissan A-Engine, rather than the dozen or so (in both AF and Whitworth) that you need to overhaul a B-Series drivetrain. The Landcrab would barely do a 7 point turn, never mind a 3 point turn (do you still do these on a driving test?), and I remember to this day the whiny gearboxes, thrashy engines, and style-free interiors that characterised the FWD range.
damianke said:
Austin/Morris just seemed like a dead end, and indeed a dead weight, where the future could have been the niche marques. They didn't understand that punters preferred Cortinas and Vauxhalls because they looked good, were simple to maintain and service, and had a certain flash appeal.
Except that in the 1960s the BMC ADO16 outsold the Cortina consistently (and every other car on the market). Because, for all its tendency to rust with alarming speed, and a whiny drivetrain plagued by shunt and weak driveshafts, it was one of the most advanced small cars in the world. In 1962 it had front wheel drive, front disc brakes, independent interconnected variable-rate suspension and rack and pinion steering. It had snappy styling by Pininfarina, more cabin space than any rival (and many cars in the class above) and the ride quality of a car twice its size and price. The fleet market would never touch it because it was expensive to buy and service but the private motorist, literally, couldn't get enough of them. And the ADO16 was built and sold all over the world - it put Innocenti into second place on the Italian market behind Fiat and briefly nudged into the top-10 sellers list in Germany. ADO16 sales didn't peak until 1971 - just two years before it was replaced.The problem was that it was replaced by the Allegro, which was simply a worse car. It wasn't styling, it had less interior space, it didn't drive as sharply, it had a wallowy ride and the equivalent 1100 and 1300 models had worse performance while the 1500 and 1750 models were cursed with the horrible E-Series.
I've just read the thread through, and it's been very enjoyable. Some top bearding going off!
I don't have anything much to add about BL, but can give a titbit regarding quality in the industry back then.
I have a friend who, when we were younger, collected old copies of CAR and Autocar Magazine, some from the 70's.
Reading these one day I was shocked to see a section of the review titled 'faults upon arrival'. It then went on to list said problems, which should never have got past quality control, let alone on a demonstrator to the national press!
I remember thinking how slack this was of BL (I can't remember the car, but it was something BL) but when I continued reading the mag the same section was in every review, regardless of manufacturer. It was evidently a time when every car sold likely had faults upon delivery. How on earth that was deemed acceptable is beyond me.
I don't have anything much to add about BL, but can give a titbit regarding quality in the industry back then.
I have a friend who, when we were younger, collected old copies of CAR and Autocar Magazine, some from the 70's.
Reading these one day I was shocked to see a section of the review titled 'faults upon arrival'. It then went on to list said problems, which should never have got past quality control, let alone on a demonstrator to the national press!
I remember thinking how slack this was of BL (I can't remember the car, but it was something BL) but when I continued reading the mag the same section was in every review, regardless of manufacturer. It was evidently a time when every car sold likely had faults upon delivery. How on earth that was deemed acceptable is beyond me.
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
I've just read the thread through, and it's been very enjoyable. Some top bearding going off!
I don't have anything much to add about BL, but can give a titbit regarding quality in the industry back then.
I have a friend who, when we were younger, collected old copies of CAR and Autocar Magazine, some from the 70's.
Reading these one day I was shocked to see a section of the review titled 'faults upon arrival'. It then went on to list said problems, which should never have got past quality control, let alone on a demonstrator to the national press!
I remember thinking how slack this was of BL (I can't remember the car, but it was something BL) but when I continued reading the mag the same section was in every review, regardless of manufacturer. It was evidently a time when every car sold likely had faults upon delivery. How on earth that was deemed acceptable is beyond me.
Yes, it was like the house building industry is today, with 'snagging' on brand new houses. Absolutely no excuse for it, just down to poor(almost nonexistent) quality control.I don't have anything much to add about BL, but can give a titbit regarding quality in the industry back then.
I have a friend who, when we were younger, collected old copies of CAR and Autocar Magazine, some from the 70's.
Reading these one day I was shocked to see a section of the review titled 'faults upon arrival'. It then went on to list said problems, which should never have got past quality control, let alone on a demonstrator to the national press!
I remember thinking how slack this was of BL (I can't remember the car, but it was something BL) but when I continued reading the mag the same section was in every review, regardless of manufacturer. It was evidently a time when every car sold likely had faults upon delivery. How on earth that was deemed acceptable is beyond me.
I agree completely. My Austin/Morris comment related to the later, post 1100/1300 era. We had a number of 1100/1300s, culminating in my mum's MG 1300 2-door which I really liked, and was my first regular driving car. Very nice shape, but that was so unreliable, carbs constantly out of sync, front subframe issues, gearbox issues. Eventually my mum got rid of it and went for the polar opposite; a VW Beetle, built like a tank and 100% reliable. Slow as f*ck and terrible to drive, but it just kept going for ever. From that to Golfs for the rest of her life...
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