RE: Prior Convictions: The Need for Speed

RE: Prior Convictions: The Need for Speed

Tuesday 13th March 2018

Prior Convictions: The Need for Speed

With nowhere for customers to actually reach it, is the top speed of Woking's next hypercar irrelevant?



McLaren has a problem. Granted, it's not a bad problem to have, but it's making a 243mph (at least) hyper GT car, and as yet has nowhere to test it.

And that is an issue, isn't it? It's different from making a hypercar - like the Aston Martin Valkyrie, say - which has all of the on-track performance of an F1 car. Sure, your buyers might not be able to extract the full potential from it, but that's only down to their talent. With the right training, or a 'hand' on board, somebody would be able to get the best from it.

But the upcoming BP23 three-seat hypercar will probably go to 250mph and, at the moment, McLaren hasn't figured out where it can demonstrate it.


The problem is this: the McLaren F1 set its 242mph performance benchmark at Ehra-Lessien, Volkswagen's test track, in 1998, because it has a straight that's several miles long. But back then Volkswagen didn't make a car that was interested in setting a top speed record itself and now, in the shape of the Chiron, it does. So Ehra-Lessien is not for hire.

Then there are the world's big high speed bowls like, say at Nardo - but given that knocked 10mph off of the F1's top speed in the 90s, you can see why the corner scrub of a constant radius bowl is too much for a modern hypercar to bear.

Which leaves a few options, but none are optimal. There are long runways - the kind of things the space shuttle was ready to use in an emergency. But the surface of these isn't always terrific. They're usually concrete and not always perfectly surfaced because a) the shuttle doesn't use them any more and b) military jets only use part of the strip. And besides, while they're long enough to get to a high speed, few, if any, are long enough to sit there for very long.

Then there are road events, or closed road sections, like Koenigsegg used last year. But you can close a road for as long as you like, it's still a public highway, whose surface, iffy run-off and wildlife you're still left at the mercy of. There are, obviously, companies that don't mind the increased risk of a nasty accident happening on a high-speed run, but I don't think McLaren is one of them.


Which leaves non-Tarmac: salt, maybe, at Bonneville, which is not McLaren's first choice because the coefficient of grip is much lower; which throws up both traction and, presumably, stability issues when you're in a car and on tyres that were meant to go quickly on paved surfaces.

Besides, proving your own top speed is one thing: after that, how do you let your owners do the same? There's the argument, which I totally buy, that it's fine if an owner doesn't use all of a car's performance, because they know it's technically possible to do so: one day they could drive a Land Rover over rock moguls, or lap a Caterham 620R as fast as a track will allow.

But how difficult does it have to be to access a car's limits, before they really do become pointless?

 

 

Author
Discussion

Esceptico

Original Poster:

7,469 posts

109 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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When I lived in Switzerland there was a good stretch of Autobahn just across the border in Germany, north of Schaffhausen. Reasonably long unrestricted sections with three lanes. Tested my GT3’s top speed there on a Sunday morning (light traffic). Managed an indicated 300 kmh. Car felt absolutely fine at that speed. Not so sure about doing 400 kmh there though.

Hairymonster

1,428 posts

105 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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Must admit, when i first saw the headline I thought "This is such an irrelevant thing to aim for" - why not concentrate on making an affordable hybrid which prioritises driver involvement and a level of practicality. I know this isn't McLaren's natural market, but I'd be far more interested in something like this rather than yet another ultimate supercar trinket which will spend most of its life languishing in the Sultan of Brunei's personal multi-storey car park.

AER

1,142 posts

270 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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Clearly not, because the McLaren top speed claim has now generated another press article banging on about McLaren cars...

dunnoreally

964 posts

108 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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It's like watches, I guess. Is anyone really going to take their Rolex Whatever 18 miles below sea level? almost certainly not, but the fact they could in theory gives them a nice warm fuzzy feeling, and that's what actually justifies the extra expense.

Venturist

3,472 posts

195 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
It’s more like PEOPLE need to think differently but that’s hardly going to happen. People want to have the best, it will always be desirable as a status symbol, even if they never use it in that way.

You could argue that a particularly gifted marketer could spearhead a public mindset change and manage to make a different attribute into the status symbol - very tough though because speed and performance are sexy and that’s pretty much biologically hardwired.

TWPC

842 posts

161 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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This is brilliant: we have a wonderful new example of irrelevance.

There must be a specific word, a polite one, for describing people who are willing and able to buy things whose capabilities are so far beyond what is possible in our environment that they can't even be tested.

The word would be the antithesis of the philosophy behind the Citroen Cactus which was designed never to have a high powered variant and needs nothing more than drum brakes on the rear wheels.

TWPC

842 posts

161 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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I'm glad such people exist to encourage companies to make these bonkers machines. What fantastic things.

Toltec

7,159 posts

223 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Occasionally you do get such oiks turning up at Waitrose, but they are frowned at in a disapproving way.

It is really a non-problem for the vast majority of people, after all how many of us will ever own one? Let's say instead someone produced a superb to drive sports car that would hit 120mph in less than seven seconds, but topped out at 150mph. Would anyone pay the price of a 720S for it?

After all it would get overtaken by a diesel on the autobahn.

Peanus

155 posts

105 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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Come on, the MF1 never hit 243mph very often. People back then were going nuts about the fact that it could do those speeds. Everyone was like “Imagine what we can do in the future!” “The upper limits are beyond our imagination.” stuff like that.

Nowadays people are grumbling about it. What happened? Why are so many miserable about this sort of stuff these days?


Gad-Westy

14,568 posts

213 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
It's funny, I do agree but I can also think back to my childhood and flicking through car magazines and being obsessed with the figures. There were 200 mph+ cars then and I never questioned the relevance of them. I'd know official the top speeds of each of the big hitters to the exact mph. You never got to see the record attempts (unless you bought a Duke VHS) so there was a bit of mystery to it all. Even then I guess the speeds were pretty meaningless. I can't see that anything particular has changed other than there being seemingly more competition in this sector. But I don't even find these cars remotely interesting anymore. Pay them no attention whatsoever. Don't know for certain what car is fastest or how fast it is.

Now is this because this market has changed or is just me being a bit older and boring? It does cause me some concern that I find the UP! GTI far more interesting than anything McLaren are up to!

TWPC

842 posts

161 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
Gad-Westy said:
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
It's funny, I do agree but I can also think back to my childhood and flicking through car magazines and being obsessed with the figures. There were 200 mph+ cars then and I never questioned the relevance of them. I'd know official the top speeds of each of the big hitters to the exact mph. You never got to see the record attempts (unless you bought a Duke VHS) so there was a bit of mystery to it all. Even then I guess the speeds were pretty meaningless. I can't see that anything particular has changed other than there being seemingly more competition in this sector. But I don't even find these cars remotely interesting anymore. Pay them no attention whatsoever. Don't know for certain what car is fastest or how fast it is.

Now is this because this market has changed or is just me being a bit older and boring? It does cause me some concern that I find the UP! GTI far more interesting than anything McLaren are up to!
Gad-Westy, I'm afraid and relieved to say that you are in exactly the same spot as me: you're getting older and more boring.
The market has not changed (except that perhaps that Grinches can point to more congested roads compared to years past as an additional reason for supercars being even more irrelevant now). I was obsessed with the GBU in the back of Car and knew all the top speeds and 0-60 times (and the snarky comments). This obsession among the young and the desire for status symbols among the old will continue.
Doesn't the Up GTI look fantastic though?
My dream car now is a Morgan 3-Wheeler...

Gad-Westy

14,568 posts

213 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
TWPC said:
Gad-Westy said:
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
It's funny, I do agree but I can also think back to my childhood and flicking through car magazines and being obsessed with the figures. There were 200 mph+ cars then and I never questioned the relevance of them. I'd know official the top speeds of each of the big hitters to the exact mph. You never got to see the record attempts (unless you bought a Duke VHS) so there was a bit of mystery to it all. Even then I guess the speeds were pretty meaningless. I can't see that anything particular has changed other than there being seemingly more competition in this sector. But I don't even find these cars remotely interesting anymore. Pay them no attention whatsoever. Don't know for certain what car is fastest or how fast it is.

Now is this because this market has changed or is just me being a bit older and boring? It does cause me some concern that I find the UP! GTI far more interesting than anything McLaren are up to!
Gad-Westy, I'm afraid and relieved to say that you are in exactly the same spot as me: you're getting older and more boring.
The market has not changed (except that perhaps that Grinches can point to more congested roads compared to years past as an additional reason for supercars being even more irrelevant now). I was obsessed with the GBU in the back of Car and knew all the top speeds and 0-60 times (and the snarky comments). This obsession among the young and the desire for status symbols among the old will continue.
Doesn't the Up GTI look fantastic though?
My dream car now is a Morgan 3-Wheeler...
smile Nearly laughed my slippers clean off.

I currently have a hankering for an original Fiat 500. But just to prove I've not quite given up on life, it would have to be the 650cc 'performance' version.


Edited by Gad-Westy on Tuesday 13th March 10:59

CABC

5,577 posts

101 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
Venturist said:
It’s more like PEOPLE need to think differently but that’s hardly going to happen. People want to have the best, it will always be desirable as a status symbol, even if they never use it in that way.

"best" and "status" aren't the same.

SturdyHSV

10,096 posts

167 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Being that they are businesses, successful car companies make what sells.

They aren't dictating the market, customers (and safety / emissions standards) are.

As has been alluded to already, it would take some pretty good marketing to change worldwide opinion on what is desirable in a car.

Further to this, many people don't care that much about cars. They're complicated things and we like to use simple numbers to compare them.

When you buy a washing machine or a fridge, you compare the arbitrary numbers given to you by the manufacturers. If you could get a washing machine with a 3000rpm spin cycle that was still energy efficient, would you not see that as better than an 1800rpm spin cycle? Do you know, or care, how useful that extra rpm is or whether it's even necessary? No, and people buy these cars in the same way. They want the object with bigger numbers than the other person on Instagram, because bigger numbers are better and so they win thumbup

Fetchez la vache

5,572 posts

214 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
CABC said:
"best" and "status" aren't the same.
Absolutely.

Of course the simple answer to the question about high speed...
"Why?"
is
"Sales".

This irrelevant number means things to some people. So they have to have it.

Rawwr

22,722 posts

234 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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Top speed is only ever a byproduct. I don't believe many manufactures when designing a car do it by starting with a need for a particular speed.

culpz

4,884 posts

112 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
dunnoreally said:
It's like watches, I guess. Is anyone really going to take their Rolex Whatever 18 miles below sea level? almost certainly not, but the fact they could in theory gives them a nice warm fuzzy feeling, and that's what actually justifies the extra expense.
Funnily enough, it's an analogy that's been used many times before. I believe Clarkson once quoted something similar.

For me, the B-segment hot-hatches have the best balance of performance and fun. So, for the newer stuff, around 1200 kilos and 200 bhp, give or take.

Byker28i

59,820 posts

217 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
culpz said:
Funnily enough, it's an analogy that's been used many times before. I believe Clarkson once quoted something similar.

For me, the B-segment hot-hatches have the best balance of performance and fun. So, for the newer stuff, around 1200 kilos and 200 bhp, give or take.
Which new hot hatch is 1200Kg? I thought they were 1400+

Gecko1978

9,710 posts

157 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
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Do not toyota in japan have a large test track and same with ford in the USA. Neither of which make a rival car. Also say a runway how much would it cost to clean up 1, 2 5 million etc a tv advert can cost same to film so why not fix one an run on it.

culpz

4,884 posts

112 months

Tuesday 13th March 2018
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
Which new hot hatch is 1200Kg? I thought they were 1400+
MK7 Fiesta ST is under 1200 kilos, i believe. 1165 if i remember correctly. Not sure on the incoming new one but should be similar.

Pretty much all the B-segment hot-hatches are about that. You're talking about the C-segment ones, i.e. Focus RS, etc.