RE: Prior Convictions: Grace, Space and Patience
Saturday 8th September 2018
Prior Convictions: Grace, Space and Patience
The E-Type Zero is just the start; Prior ponders electric Jags
There's not much room inside a Jaguar E-Type, to be fair. It's an influential car whose template is rather well followed by the F-Type in that respect. But evidently there is enough space underneath its nose, as you'll know if you stayed attached to your television until Huw Edwards was into his nth hour of Harry and Meghan's wedding, to shoehorn an electric drivetrain into an area that was once occupied by an XK six-cylinder engine and its accompanying gearbox.
So well received was it that Jaguar has since decided to remodel other E-Types in the same fashion, which presumably has some appeal to those who have agreed to part with 'north of £300,000' for the privilege. And perhaps that's unsurprising, because old seems to be the new new, if 911s reimagined by Singer, and rethought Stratoses and Integrales are anything to go by.
The reimagining about this E-Type Zero, though, is how radical it truly is. What really strikes me about driving an E-Type is not its famed exterior. A surprisingly large number of people seem to deem the E less beautiful than Enzo Ferrari said it was these days (making the E-Type's looks the most over-under-overrated [?] of all time?). No, what marks out an E-Type is the smooth, muscular straight-six XK engine that sits beneath its bonnet. Thus in converting these E-Types Jaguar has taken the least efficient but most charismatic part of the car and replaced by one of the most efficient and effective, but arguably least interesting power sources known to motordom.
Our esteemed correspondent didn't seem to mind that, which is fine, but the interesting thing is that what fits one, fits all. The engine and the gearbox in XK-engined Jaguars always occupied a similar amount of space and the new powertrain design is designed fit into whatever is left behind when you take them out. Given so many modern electric cars use a flat 'skateboard' architecture, that this drivetrain is so neatly packaged and looks very good is intriguing. More so is that any car that uses a similar drivetrain - and between 1949 and 1992 there were a lot of them - is able to be given this kind of conversion.
Away from the of Jaguar's most famous sporting offspring, there are a lot of luxurious cars in the back catalogue. One some of which an extraordinarily quiet and smooth drivetrain could seem disarmingly appealing.
Discussion
I'm sick to death hearing about how electric cars are the future. It now appears you can have an electric car past as well.
It all very trendy and stylish I'm sure, but unless I'm missing something, there seems to be an awful lot of pollution going on designing and building the things in the first place.
Perhaps we shouldn't mention the rare elements that go into making the batteries and all of the coal fired power stations burning away making all of the electricity to power them.
Yes I'm a Luddite, but what are the real world wide benefits of going electric?
It all very trendy and stylish I'm sure, but unless I'm missing something, there seems to be an awful lot of pollution going on designing and building the things in the first place.
Perhaps we shouldn't mention the rare elements that go into making the batteries and all of the coal fired power stations burning away making all of the electricity to power them.
Yes I'm a Luddite, but what are the real world wide benefits of going electric?
Could not agree more MFP!!! The embedded Carbon in the manufacture of the batteries from excavating the rare earth metals by slave labour (unproven, but likely), transporting half way round the world to make the batteries by more slave labour (unproven, but likely) to move them half way round the world again to the car factories - its shocking and nowhere near talked about enough! Petrol and Diesel are not perfect, granted, but electric cars are NOT the answer. Electrical infrastructure in the UK does not support the level of demand, and probably wont for 100 years at least. Oh, and we are turning off the Nuclear power plants, so the electricity comes from fossil fuels anyway! To me, the most Carbon efficient vehicle is one manufactured from recycled metals in the UK by a UK workforce. The carbon loading of the fossil fuel consumed is a very small percentage of the carbon emitted in its lifetime - Can you say that about a Tesla???
PH article said:
Away from the of Jaguar's most famous sporting offspring, there are a lot of luxurious cars in the back catalogue. One some of which an extraordinarily quiet and smooth drivetrain could seem disarmingly appealing.
I quite away from agree one some.mfp4073 said:
I'm sick to death hearing about how electric cars are the future. It now appears you can have an electric car past as well.
It all very trendy and stylish I'm sure, but unless I'm missing something, there seems to be an awful lot of pollution going on designing and building the things in the first place.
Perhaps we shouldn't mention the rare elements that go into making the batteries and all of the coal fired power stations burning away making all of the electricity to power them.
Yes I'm a Luddite, but what are the real world wide benefits of going electric?
It all very trendy and stylish I'm sure, but unless I'm missing something, there seems to be an awful lot of pollution going on designing and building the things in the first place.
Perhaps we shouldn't mention the rare elements that go into making the batteries and all of the coal fired power stations burning away making all of the electricity to power them.
Yes I'm a Luddite, but what are the real world wide benefits of going electric?
stolenink said:
Could not agree more MFP!!! The embedded Carbon in the manufacture of the batteries from excavating the rare earth metals by slave labour (unproven, but likely), transporting half way round the world to make the batteries by more slave labour (unproven, but likely) to move them half way round the world again to the car factories - its shocking and nowhere near talked about enough! Petrol and Diesel are not perfect, granted, but electric cars are NOT the answer. Electrical infrastructure in the UK does not support the level of demand, and probably wont for 100 years at least. Oh, and we are turning off the Nuclear power plants, so the electricity comes from fossil fuels anyway! To me, the most Carbon efficient vehicle is one manufactured from recycled metals in the UK by a UK workforce. The carbon loading of the fossil fuel consumed is a very small percentage of the carbon emitted in its lifetime - Can you say that about a Tesla???
come on, ladsthere's a whole internet out there, heaving with data (and even pictures!) that addresses each of your doubts and false statements
why not bring to the forum something a bit more substantial than "Me dance to make rain. Me fire starter."
OK, if you take the pollution issue aside,
if I were to buy an electric car today, I'd have the problems of a woeful range, and an even worse problem of finding somewhere to charge the damn thing up, never mind having to wait ages to do it.
The fact is a petrol engine is a dinosaur from a different age, but in the real world it just works. The electric car is a nonese. Remember the world runs on oil, and despite what you read in the papers there is plenty of it. There is no way that multi trillion dollar companies are going to sit back and let the internal combustion engine die off anytime soon, it will just get cleaner and more efficient.
I might not be driving in 20-30 years time but I believe there will be petrol and diesel cars not only on the road but still being manufactured.
if I were to buy an electric car today, I'd have the problems of a woeful range, and an even worse problem of finding somewhere to charge the damn thing up, never mind having to wait ages to do it.
The fact is a petrol engine is a dinosaur from a different age, but in the real world it just works. The electric car is a nonese. Remember the world runs on oil, and despite what you read in the papers there is plenty of it. There is no way that multi trillion dollar companies are going to sit back and let the internal combustion engine die off anytime soon, it will just get cleaner and more efficient.
I might not be driving in 20-30 years time but I believe there will be petrol and diesel cars not only on the road but still being manufactured.
Let’s be fair, E-Types drive like pigs, even lovely original ones that have been pampered. And whilst I did get the joy of piloting one and getting all my changes right, braking at the right point (half a mile before you wish to stop!) etc, I can see the appeal of this also.
If it’s punchy, well engineered, and handles nicely, I actually think it could be a better, more reliable prospect than the original.
Even something appeals to me about the silence with the roof down.
I’m not sure what’s happened to me, never thought I’d stick up for an EV.
If it’s punchy, well engineered, and handles nicely, I actually think it could be a better, more reliable prospect than the original.
Even something appeals to me about the silence with the roof down.
I’m not sure what’s happened to me, never thought I’d stick up for an EV.
Not Jag I admit but in fairness the same company. I was watching this converted Range Rover road test on Youtube last night. I cant lie I really want one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjOY4JBmy4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjOY4JBmy4
mfp4073 said:
OK, if you take the pollution issue aside,
if I were to buy an electric car today, I'd have the problems of a woeful range, and an even worse problem of finding somewhere to charge the damn thing up, never mind having to wait ages to do it.
The fact is a petrol engine is a dinosaur from a different age, but in the real world it just works. The electric car is a nonese. Remember the world runs on oil, and despite what you read in the papers there is plenty of it. There is no way that multi trillion dollar companies are going to sit back and let the internal combustion engine die off anytime soon, it will just get cleaner and more efficient.
I might not be driving in 20-30 years time but I believe there will be petrol and diesel cars not only on the road but still being manufactured.
What a load of luddite drivel. The ipace has 394bhp, 500+lb ft torque from 0rpm, and a range of 300 miles. Ive just had a look. In my living room I have 8 charging points. My garage has 12. And my petrol bmw has been sitting for over 16 hours now. I bet it hasnt got any more fuel in it..if I were to buy an electric car today, I'd have the problems of a woeful range, and an even worse problem of finding somewhere to charge the damn thing up, never mind having to wait ages to do it.
The fact is a petrol engine is a dinosaur from a different age, but in the real world it just works. The electric car is a nonese. Remember the world runs on oil, and despite what you read in the papers there is plenty of it. There is no way that multi trillion dollar companies are going to sit back and let the internal combustion engine die off anytime soon, it will just get cleaner and more efficient.
I might not be driving in 20-30 years time but I believe there will be petrol and diesel cars not only on the road but still being manufactured.
williamp said:
What a load of luddite drivel. The ipace has 394bhp, 500+lb ft torque from 0rpm, and a range of 300 miles. Ive just had a look. In my living room I have 8 charging points. My garage has 12. And my petrol bmw has been sitting for over 16 hours now. I bet it hasnt got any more fuel in it..
The point being, I can drive anywhere in the UK at anytime, and it will only take a few minutes to refuel. I can then continue my return journey no matter how many miles I need to cover.If you drive 300 miles and you need to recharge your ipace, how long do you have to wait if the charging points are in use? how long will it take to fully recharge the battery?
Thats not the thinking of a Luddite, that's someone who is a realist.
Edited by mfp4073 on Sunday 9th September 08:17
mfp4073 said:
problem of finding somewhere to charge the damn thing up
You think that someone who can afford a class E Type, and the cost of converting it to electric, does not have a house with mains electricity? Finding somewhere to charge it up it is a pretty trivial issue for a classic car.mfp4073 said:
The point being, I can drive anywhere in the UK at anytime, and it will only take a few minutes to refuel. I can then continue my return journey no matter how many miles I need to cover.
If you drive 300 miles
How many old classics actually get driven 300 miles in one go, ever? Besides, give it a few more years and the introduction of E10 petrol means it might well be easier to recharge an EV than find an unleaded pump that even a relatively recent car can use. If you drive 300 miles
Edited by mfp4073 on Sunday 9th September 08:17
mfp4073 said:
The point being, I can drive anywhere in the UK at anytime, and it will only take a few minutes to refuel. I can then continue my return journey no matter how many miles I need to cover.
If you drive 300 miles and you need to recharge your ipace, how long do you have to wait if the charging points are in use? how long will it take to fully recharge the battery?
Thats not the thinking of a Luddite, that's someone who is a realist.
Well. On the more widely available 50kWh chargers you get around 50 miles of real world range in 20mins. So on that rare occasion that people do more than 200ish miles in one stint, a 30mins wee and coffee break will give you another 70ish miles of range. This time next year, when there are a decent number of 100kWh chargers around, it’d be about 120ish miles in the same time. If you drive 300 miles and you need to recharge your ipace, how long do you have to wait if the charging points are in use? how long will it take to fully recharge the battery?
Thats not the thinking of a Luddite, that's someone who is a realist.
For those in the world that drive 800 miles a day without ever stopping as they never get tired and have a 10l bladder, electric cars clearly aren’t suitable right now.
mfp4073 said:
OK, if you take the pollution issue aside,
if I were to buy an electric car today, I'd have the problems of a woeful range
Non issue, unless you are in the rare percentage of drivers who do routine long drives. You wouldn't even have to "wait long" to recharge, because it's a passive process. You're just used to the idea of, effectively, going to the shops to buy a new battery for your phone instead of just topping it up as-and-when.if I were to buy an electric car today, I'd have the problems of a woeful range
I like this. I really do, such an innovative idea, very well executed, with a lot of interesting potential applications.
However...
I don't really understand what its for, other than an engineering exercise. The lack of modern crash safety devices makes them unsuitable for daily driving.
However...
I don't really understand what its for, other than an engineering exercise. The lack of modern crash safety devices makes them unsuitable for daily driving.
For the Luddites out there, this makes for an interesting watch. It's a nice little conversation/review/discussion about the I-Pace and living with electric cars in general. *Spoiler Alert* Porter really likes it and realises that actually living with one is easy, and his misconceptions about range and charging were exactly that. Misconceptions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NiXonkHnmw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NiXonkHnmw
Can I suggest that old Jags, with all their questionable electrics and questionable rust-proofing, probably AREN'T the best candidates for an EV powertrain swap?
Sure, you can do it...and you can even get it thoroughly rust-proofed and the electrics replaced with modern stufd too. And you'll have a classic mainstream luxury car that's less cossetting than a modern mainstream luxury car, only costs a hell of a lot more.
Also, and more importantly I REALLY think there's a big element of baby/bathwater with all this nonsense:-
- Classic cars are popular because of either nostalgia, or 'experience' (feel/feedback/sound...), or (nowadays) investment.
- The first group won't be interested in an EV powertrain as it won't be nostalgic
- The second group will miss the sound of the original ICE, although some may be won-over by the performance.
- The third group won't be interested as it'll ruin the 'investment' value of the original car.
...so you're left with a few 'early adopter techhies' who fancy the idea of something novel.
Which is what these are - a novelty. If you want an EV (and I don't subscribe to the naysayers particularly, although I'll stick with my ICE's for a while), then buy an EV - some good ones out there now...
Sure, you can do it...and you can even get it thoroughly rust-proofed and the electrics replaced with modern stufd too. And you'll have a classic mainstream luxury car that's less cossetting than a modern mainstream luxury car, only costs a hell of a lot more.
Also, and more importantly I REALLY think there's a big element of baby/bathwater with all this nonsense:-
- Classic cars are popular because of either nostalgia, or 'experience' (feel/feedback/sound...), or (nowadays) investment.
- The first group won't be interested in an EV powertrain as it won't be nostalgic
- The second group will miss the sound of the original ICE, although some may be won-over by the performance.
- The third group won't be interested as it'll ruin the 'investment' value of the original car.
...so you're left with a few 'early adopter techhies' who fancy the idea of something novel.
Which is what these are - a novelty. If you want an EV (and I don't subscribe to the naysayers particularly, although I'll stick with my ICE's for a while), then buy an EV - some good ones out there now...
havoc said:
Can I suggest that old Jags, with all their questionable electrics and questionable rust-proofing, probably AREN'T the best candidates for an EV powertrain swap?
Sure, you can do it...and you can even get it thoroughly rust-proofed and the electrics replaced with modern stufd too. And you'll have a classic mainstream luxury car that's less cossetting than a modern mainstream luxury car, only costs a hell of a lot more.
Also, and more importantly I REALLY think there's a big element of baby/bathwater with all this nonsense:-
- Classic cars are popular because of either nostalgia, or 'experience' (feel/feedback/sound...), or (nowadays) investment.
- The first group won't be interested in an EV powertrain as it won't be nostalgic
- The second group will miss the sound of the original ICE, although some may be won-over by the performance.
- The third group won't be interested as it'll ruin the 'investment' value of the original car.
...so you're left with a few 'early adopter techhies' who fancy the idea of something novel.
Which is what these are - a novelty. If you want an EV (and I don't subscribe to the naysayers particularly, although I'll stick with my ICE's for a while), then buy an EV - some good ones out there now...
I think I'd agree with this, despite my general defence of EVs in general. Classic conversions like this are unlikely to be the norm. I suspect all of these will be bought by a very small number of rich tech people in California, who want to show off how environmentally aware they are....Sure, you can do it...and you can even get it thoroughly rust-proofed and the electrics replaced with modern stufd too. And you'll have a classic mainstream luxury car that's less cossetting than a modern mainstream luxury car, only costs a hell of a lot more.
Also, and more importantly I REALLY think there's a big element of baby/bathwater with all this nonsense:-
- Classic cars are popular because of either nostalgia, or 'experience' (feel/feedback/sound...), or (nowadays) investment.
- The first group won't be interested in an EV powertrain as it won't be nostalgic
- The second group will miss the sound of the original ICE, although some may be won-over by the performance.
- The third group won't be interested as it'll ruin the 'investment' value of the original car.
...so you're left with a few 'early adopter techhies' who fancy the idea of something novel.
Which is what these are - a novelty. If you want an EV (and I don't subscribe to the naysayers particularly, although I'll stick with my ICE's for a while), then buy an EV - some good ones out there now...
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