Is anyone else not ambitious
Discussion
Petrolsmasher said:
I have a good job that pays well and im only halfway through my career.
However ive just turned down a promotion as i cant be bothered with any more responsibility and cant be bothered doing interview etc.
Have i lost my ambition or are some people just happy to stay in a certain role for years and years. I feel like im getting lazier but at the same time i cant see the extra stress of a better role being worth the additional monry and im quite happy being 'mid range'
Nothing wrong with it. If you're happy where you are, that's great.However ive just turned down a promotion as i cant be bothered with any more responsibility and cant be bothered doing interview etc.
Have i lost my ambition or are some people just happy to stay in a certain role for years and years. I feel like im getting lazier but at the same time i cant see the extra stress of a better role being worth the additional monry and im quite happy being 'mid range'
I see a lot of people on here saying managers earn less than the junior staff.
Its never really been like that in anywhere I have worked. Managers always take home more, a lot more.
Is this managers trying to make out they are not earning more perhaps or are businesses trying it on with junior staff to try and get them into management without having to dish out a bigger package? Either way its strange.
I now run a small business but back in the day working for a blue chip engineers were on c.30k and senior engineers 40-50k. Management would be at least 60k often more, usually with 20% bonus and better pension benefits better car etc.
Its never really been like that in anywhere I have worked. Managers always take home more, a lot more.
Is this managers trying to make out they are not earning more perhaps or are businesses trying it on with junior staff to try and get them into management without having to dish out a bigger package? Either way its strange.
I now run a small business but back in the day working for a blue chip engineers were on c.30k and senior engineers 40-50k. Management would be at least 60k often more, usually with 20% bonus and better pension benefits better car etc.
fridaypassion said:
Interesting thread. Lots of people are happy I'm one of them but contentment is the holy grail. I don't reckon I've met more than half a dozen truly contented people in my life it seems to be something that's absent completely in anyone under the age of 60 now.
A lot of good stuff in your post but just wanted to highlight a good point - happiness and contentment are different. Nobody can be happy all the time but if you have an underlying level of contentment you'll be much better able to handle the vicissitudes of life. Edited by fridaypassion on Tuesday 18th June 06:20
I'm sure there's plenty of research that shows a small amount more than median earnings is where increased money no longer = increased happiness.
I'm still working on it but I think reminding oneself to be grateful every day definitely helps As does remembering that the good things in life are really experiences and relationships with other people, not things. Still doesn't stop me looking at the classifieds for cars and bikes far too often though
GM182 said:
A lot of good stuff in your post but just wanted to highlight a good point - happiness and contentment are different. Nobody can be happy all the time but if you have an underlying level of contentment you'll be much better able to handle the vicissitudes of life.
I'm sure there's plenty of research that shows a small amount more than median earnings is where increased money no longer = increased happiness.
I'm still working on it but I think reminding oneself to be grateful every day definitely helps As does remembering that the good things in life are really experiences and relationships with other people, not things. Still doesn't stop me looking at the classifieds for cars and bikes far too often though
Material toys beget more material toys when we bore of them; hardly true happiness in that they are short-lived thrills. I'm sure there's plenty of research that shows a small amount more than median earnings is where increased money no longer = increased happiness.
I'm still working on it but I think reminding oneself to be grateful every day definitely helps As does remembering that the good things in life are really experiences and relationships with other people, not things. Still doesn't stop me looking at the classifieds for cars and bikes far too often though
True happiness is finding a passion for Life in whatever you do and not having financial worries to enjoy it. For example, one of my friends is a Marine Biologist who travels the World between lecturing at a University on Grants researching stuff - she is incredibly passionate about her work and would do it even if independently wealthy. She is happy and content in a perfect way.
In my case, I am semi-retired at 50 and enjoying living in a place that is, for most, a Sunny holiday destination. I have plenty of 'me' time to enjoy my sports and pastimes. I would say I'm pretty happy and content. I could work more, earn more, afford nicer toys - cars, for instance. But I know that being able to buy more expensive toys won't make me happier, albeit there is no denying the short-term thrills. I have decided that I prefer my Lifestyle now to that of one working more to buy those extra thrills. A trade-off that I believe makes me happier overall.
My ambition extended only so far as to get to where I am now. Not to carry on creating wealth and/or furthering a career or vocation.
My wife is a career-woman and has reached a high level in her chosen field. She is now looking to plan her own retirement and is setting up a Life-Coaching business over the next couple of years - to keep herself busy doing something she really enjoys while winding down and enjoying more holidays and pastimes.
I have a sister who is very wealthy, works long hours. She is driven by peer recognition for her successes and being wined and dined at top venues across the USA as among the top of her game. I have friends who have very little - one, quit a City role in London, bought an apartment here on the beachfront and set himself up as a one-man band pool cleaner. All of the pools he maintains are for holiday homes and he has very little to zero stress. Only twice has he been caught having it off with pretty young tourists as he goes about his business.
I'm making £5k pa more as a design manager than when i was a senior design engineer at the same company.
My hours haven't increased and my workload has actually decreased as I delegate quite a few bits now. The only thing that i've really had to trade off for that is increased accountability and answering a few emails out of hours, and a few trips to the US over the year.
For the uplift in salary I think i'm getting a pretty decent deal. Sometimes it does pay to sit in the same company for a few years and play the long game, despite what quite a few people on here "advised" me when the whole opportunity arose.
Management wasn't ever an ambition of mine, but I wasn't about to commit career suicide and sidestep the opportunity for a decent payrise that would otherwise never come at the glass ceiling I had previously hit.
My hours haven't increased and my workload has actually decreased as I delegate quite a few bits now. The only thing that i've really had to trade off for that is increased accountability and answering a few emails out of hours, and a few trips to the US over the year.
For the uplift in salary I think i'm getting a pretty decent deal. Sometimes it does pay to sit in the same company for a few years and play the long game, despite what quite a few people on here "advised" me when the whole opportunity arose.
Management wasn't ever an ambition of mine, but I wasn't about to commit career suicide and sidestep the opportunity for a decent payrise that would otherwise never come at the glass ceiling I had previously hit.
Edited by designforlife on Wednesday 19th June 14:05
red_slr said:
I see a lot of people on here saying managers earn less than the junior staff.
Its never really been like that in anywhere I have worked. Managers always take home more, a lot more.
Is this managers trying to make out they are not earning more perhaps or are businesses trying it on with junior staff to try and get them into management without having to dish out a bigger package? Either way its strange.
I now run a small business but back in the day working for a blue chip engineers were on c.30k and senior engineers 40-50k. Management would be at least 60k often more, usually with 20% bonus and better pension benefits better car etc.
agree with a lot of that - it's always a balancing act though. How much is a 10%/15%/25% uplift in £££ worth in comparison to the extra hours required/stress involved/responsibility etcIts never really been like that in anywhere I have worked. Managers always take home more, a lot more.
Is this managers trying to make out they are not earning more perhaps or are businesses trying it on with junior staff to try and get them into management without having to dish out a bigger package? Either way its strange.
I now run a small business but back in the day working for a blue chip engineers were on c.30k and senior engineers 40-50k. Management would be at least 60k often more, usually with 20% bonus and better pension benefits better car etc.
the problem that I have, if indeed it is a problem, is that I have no desire whatsoever to be involved in management.
the next step from where I am is to manage a team, possible 4-6 people. I have no desire at all to do that. As an employment lawyer I see the hideous task some managers have when you have a difficult team, or one bad apple. Then when you try and manage the situation, the grievances start flying about, people go on stress, you then have to put people on a pip and it all get ghastly. And you still have to do your day job/operational role too in addition to dealing with all the management BS.
and all for another 450 quid a month. its simply not worth the hassle.
this is an interesting thread though and I definitely agree about the law of diminishing returns when you earn a certain amount of money. I've always really looked at what I earn an hour. That is to say, ok, I earn a lot less than some of my mates on 150k, but when you look at what we are paid an hour, given I probably have 30pc of their workload and stress - in a strange way I am actually ahead!
I think there was a study wasn't there that said in terms of happiness v salary (and presumably therefore job stress etc) the sweet spot was about 50 grand?
the next step from where I am is to manage a team, possible 4-6 people. I have no desire at all to do that. As an employment lawyer I see the hideous task some managers have when you have a difficult team, or one bad apple. Then when you try and manage the situation, the grievances start flying about, people go on stress, you then have to put people on a pip and it all get ghastly. And you still have to do your day job/operational role too in addition to dealing with all the management BS.
and all for another 450 quid a month. its simply not worth the hassle.
this is an interesting thread though and I definitely agree about the law of diminishing returns when you earn a certain amount of money. I've always really looked at what I earn an hour. That is to say, ok, I earn a lot less than some of my mates on 150k, but when you look at what we are paid an hour, given I probably have 30pc of their workload and stress - in a strange way I am actually ahead!
I think there was a study wasn't there that said in terms of happiness v salary (and presumably therefore job stress etc) the sweet spot was about 50 grand?
princeperch said:
I think there was a study wasn't there that said in terms of happiness v salary (and presumably therefore job stress etc) the sweet spot was about 50 grand?
I think its a hell of a lot less than that tbh. A £50K job where I live (NE England, where the AVERAGE wage is probably more like £20K or less) would be a pretty high up position and almost certainly stressful. Indeed, £50K would be about a rung above my supervisor who is technically 2 rungs above me. Maybe £50K for London, I dunno? But I can easily get by on half of that.
Interesting thread.
I'm early 40s, senior role, and am definitely ambitious.
I'm mainly motivated by money but I acknowledge that status has an important influence: it mainly comes from feeling that I have to prove to myself that I'm always fulfilling my potential (I'm inherently lazy).
It does lead to a constant sense of dissatisfaction - how to I get further up the food chain? Next step is the board - I'm already thinking I've left it too late by not getting there before 40. Which is ridiculous as I theoretically have 20 years of work left..!
I don't do shafting people - I'm a collaborative person - but I am acutely aware this is my career and my responsibility.
The only time I've suffered stress from work is when I've found myself in toxic work environments - the ones where politics and ego trump the wider corporate mission. I'm better at navigating those situations these days....
My wife is similar, though she is motivated by different things. Sometimes I wonder what message we're giving to our daughter....
I'm early 40s, senior role, and am definitely ambitious.
I'm mainly motivated by money but I acknowledge that status has an important influence: it mainly comes from feeling that I have to prove to myself that I'm always fulfilling my potential (I'm inherently lazy).
It does lead to a constant sense of dissatisfaction - how to I get further up the food chain? Next step is the board - I'm already thinking I've left it too late by not getting there before 40. Which is ridiculous as I theoretically have 20 years of work left..!
I don't do shafting people - I'm a collaborative person - but I am acutely aware this is my career and my responsibility.
The only time I've suffered stress from work is when I've found myself in toxic work environments - the ones where politics and ego trump the wider corporate mission. I'm better at navigating those situations these days....
My wife is similar, though she is motivated by different things. Sometimes I wonder what message we're giving to our daughter....
I am struggling with whether or not I am still ambitious.
I started out on a graduate scheme and was rapidly promoted through various organisations and roles in my 20s and early 30s. I've been used to being the youngest in the room since I started out in 2003 and this is only just starting to change.
Now, at 38, I have been at my current level for over 7 years... admittedly on a fourth role at the same grade. There are really only 2 rungs of the ladder left in my career area, but each comes with a horrific work-life balance. If I was prepared to move outside the organisation, I'm confident I'd already have progressed. I've done all the recognised development programmes etc and, in my work world, wouldn't admit to being anything less than very ambitious.
However, the role / area I've been working in for the last 4 years is doing something that's very rare. It's basically a well-paid, secure and socially useful job. It can burn me out (as many jobs do), but is also fun, interesting, nationwide, does offer some flexibility, opens a lot of doors and is a conversation piece. But, if I want to progress, I have to leave.
As a family, we don't have the pressures that many people have. You'd not guess our situation from our clothes, house or material goods - and that's the way we want it to be.
So, I've been asking myself a lot: Am I bothered about progressing? What's important to me? I've spent a lot of time reading up on the Financial Independence / Retire Early community.
But I also feel like I've been setting myself up for so long to reach the top that I'm now struggling with the idea of not! With friends dying or having terrible things befall them in the last few years, plus having 2 young kids, I do also have clear ideas of what else is important in life.
It's been helpful to me to write this down, but the TL/DR is: "still a bit ambitious, but not as much as I was".
I started out on a graduate scheme and was rapidly promoted through various organisations and roles in my 20s and early 30s. I've been used to being the youngest in the room since I started out in 2003 and this is only just starting to change.
Now, at 38, I have been at my current level for over 7 years... admittedly on a fourth role at the same grade. There are really only 2 rungs of the ladder left in my career area, but each comes with a horrific work-life balance. If I was prepared to move outside the organisation, I'm confident I'd already have progressed. I've done all the recognised development programmes etc and, in my work world, wouldn't admit to being anything less than very ambitious.
However, the role / area I've been working in for the last 4 years is doing something that's very rare. It's basically a well-paid, secure and socially useful job. It can burn me out (as many jobs do), but is also fun, interesting, nationwide, does offer some flexibility, opens a lot of doors and is a conversation piece. But, if I want to progress, I have to leave.
As a family, we don't have the pressures that many people have. You'd not guess our situation from our clothes, house or material goods - and that's the way we want it to be.
So, I've been asking myself a lot: Am I bothered about progressing? What's important to me? I've spent a lot of time reading up on the Financial Independence / Retire Early community.
But I also feel like I've been setting myself up for so long to reach the top that I'm now struggling with the idea of not! With friends dying or having terrible things befall them in the last few years, plus having 2 young kids, I do also have clear ideas of what else is important in life.
It's been helpful to me to write this down, but the TL/DR is: "still a bit ambitious, but not as much as I was".
I remember watching the film Layer Cake upon release. I was 18 years old. The one quote that stands out is Michael Gambon’s line close to the end ...
t from below, as well as st from above. In fact, every morning I wonder what might happen next. I may write a book on my experiences one day! 
That said, a wealthy person once told me, “work smart, not hard”. I may heed this advice soon.
Eddie Temple said:
You're born, you take st. You get out in the world, you take more st. You climb a little higher, you take less st. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what st even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake son.
Perhaps true in the criminal underworld of smuggling drugs, but I very much get st. You get out in the world, you take more st. You climb a little higher, you take less st. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what st even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake son.t from below, as well as st from above. In fact, every morning I wonder what might happen next. I may write a book on my experiences one day! That said, a wealthy person once told me, “work smart, not hard”. I may heed this advice soon.
My ambition is starting to wane, I'm late 30s, senior advisory position at work. 2 years ago I did a complete U-turn from being a completely technical person to shifting towards business operations. By doing this change, I managed to get a 50k payrise, better benefits, and the ability to work from home and control my diary with no-one looking over my shoulder.
Do I enjoy it? Sort of. The peaks and troughs are definitely higher and lower. I'm doing the same job alongside people 15 years older than me. Like some of the posters above, I still have 25 years so to go. The IT industry is changing so rapidly - something you could spend a couple of years learning full-time is null and void, and then you have to learn the next big thing.
I joined the industry because I'd been playing with computers since I was about 4, but as a means to pay my mortgage, it's just about beginning to get tedious, and I do need to find other avenues within the industry to keep me ticking over until retirement.
Do I enjoy it? Sort of. The peaks and troughs are definitely higher and lower. I'm doing the same job alongside people 15 years older than me. Like some of the posters above, I still have 25 years so to go. The IT industry is changing so rapidly - something you could spend a couple of years learning full-time is null and void, and then you have to learn the next big thing.
I joined the industry because I'd been playing with computers since I was about 4, but as a means to pay my mortgage, it's just about beginning to get tedious, and I do need to find other avenues within the industry to keep me ticking over until retirement.
Never had any ambition. I'm relatively happy in a job I can do pretty well, being paid far more than most other similar roles would pay me, although management is so poor it's unworthy of the name and it's shift work.
I've had 38 jobs since 1984, the longest 7 years and the shortest from 0900 to approx 10.30 one morning. I have had responsibility for multi-million pound budgets and up to 30 staff, I've steered a project to start and maintain a customer service operation overseas, I've sold everything from nails and screws to high end furniture and superbikes.
I like my current role mostly because I leave work at work. I get to finish any task I'm on within my shift and don't have to think about work at all when I'm not there. I have no ambition to move upwards as there's just more st for not much more reward.
I've had 38 jobs since 1984, the longest 7 years and the shortest from 0900 to approx 10.30 one morning. I have had responsibility for multi-million pound budgets and up to 30 staff, I've steered a project to start and maintain a customer service operation overseas, I've sold everything from nails and screws to high end furniture and superbikes.
I like my current role mostly because I leave work at work. I get to finish any task I'm on within my shift and don't have to think about work at all when I'm not there. I have no ambition to move upwards as there's just more s
t for not much more reward.devnull said:
The IT industry is changing so rapidly - something you could spend a couple of years learning full-time is null and void, and then you have to learn the next big thing.
And therein lies the danger. If you needed a good application knocked up in Visual Basic 6, .NET and SQL 2005, I'm your man. Forged a great career out of having these skills. Moved into management and de-skilled in development. Fast forward a few years and I can't think of anything worse than managing people and projects. Well, yeah there are many more jobs worse than that but you know what I mean. So that leaves me not wanting to do IT Manager/Head of IT roles and not able to code/develop in current technologies. Pretty unemployable at my wage level. I could retrain with more current languages and practises but at my age, my home time is taken up with family duties and I don't have the ambition or desire to do that.Luckily, I've changed to application consultancy so I'm not writing code anymore but also not doing the head of IT role. The pay is fantastic for what I actually do, I can work from home and arrange my own travel around when it suits me. The downside is if I lost my job tomorrow, I'm not sure I'd find employment elsewhere anytime soon and certainly not for my current wage/bonus.
My sermon... You can lose ambition and that's OK but never drop your technical skills (or keep current). Here endeth the lesson.
devnull said:
Like some of the posters above, I still have 25 years so to go. The IT industry is changing so rapidly - something you could spend a couple of years learning full-time is null and void, and then you have to learn the next big thing.
This is a big frustration for me - as an ageing full-stack web developer who cut his teeth writing CGI scripts back in the 1990s.IT training and learning is like trying to hit a moving target. You pick something, and by the time you've mastered it - you find out it's obsolete. If you become an early adopter of a new technology to try and stay ahead of the curve, there's a good chance it will be a flop, and never take off. I remember a few years back, a lot of people in my company learning Microsoft Silverlight, because they were convinced it was the next big thing (I was always dubious). A few years later, and it was dead in the water.
In almost 30 years, I've realised you can't win really.
On the other hand, some people have cut out a niche from being experts in old technology. A couple of years back, I met a COBOL programmer earning big money working for a bank.
Out of interest has anyone found having kids affected you in the ambition/motivation stakes?
I've always been a bit of what you might call a "go getter" Lied about my age to get a paper round at 14 and never stopped since really but I found when we had our first child I was like a man possessed. The Mrs had twins for our number 2 and when they were a month old I chucked in my old employed job to go full time on my own. My desire to take over the world on the business front has subsided a lot now though. We make a comfortable living and it's enough for me. The entrepreneur in me is always restless though and at least in business life I don't think anyone is ever happy. Maybe I'll make a return to the Richard Branson version of FP when Brexit blows over
I've always been a bit of what you might call a "go getter" Lied about my age to get a paper round at 14 and never stopped since really but I found when we had our first child I was like a man possessed. The Mrs had twins for our number 2 and when they were a month old I chucked in my old employed job to go full time on my own. My desire to take over the world on the business front has subsided a lot now though. We make a comfortable living and it's enough for me. The entrepreneur in me is always restless though and at least in business life I don't think anyone is ever happy. Maybe I'll make a return to the Richard Branson version of FP when Brexit blows over
Was poor when young and paid for my own education. Driven by fear of failure rather than pure ambition.
However , always loved the work and wanted new business and personal experiences. Liked new countries and new technologies ; loved to be able to effect change which meant more and more senior positions.
Never stopped,really ,and at 70 now doing board work plus some public service stuff. Still log 100,000 air miles a year.
We are all different on this. My only comment is that the world changes very fast these days. Many traditional jobs disappear and will continue to do so and the old job-for-life with a traditional defined benefit pension plan is in grave danger outside of government. We are all living longer and there will be endless pressures on social services.
Staying put can mean that you get to the top of your pay grade and in a recession you can be vulnerable.
I work now , not out of financial necessity but because I love emerging technologies and it is exciting to see what’s coming next.
I have seen the world , drive the cars I like and have no capacity for golf, social clubs, gardening, country cottage or going on cruises or tours although I have many friends who enjoy this life. So, in the end I suppose I am still ambitious.
However , always loved the work and wanted new business and personal experiences. Liked new countries and new technologies ; loved to be able to effect change which meant more and more senior positions.
Never stopped,really ,and at 70 now doing board work plus some public service stuff. Still log 100,000 air miles a year.
We are all different on this. My only comment is that the world changes very fast these days. Many traditional jobs disappear and will continue to do so and the old job-for-life with a traditional defined benefit pension plan is in grave danger outside of government. We are all living longer and there will be endless pressures on social services.
Staying put can mean that you get to the top of your pay grade and in a recession you can be vulnerable.
I work now , not out of financial necessity but because I love emerging technologies and it is exciting to see what’s coming next.
I have seen the world , drive the cars I like and have no capacity for golf, social clubs, gardening, country cottage or going on cruises or tours although I have many friends who enjoy this life. So, in the end I suppose I am still ambitious.
stevesuk said:
devnull said:
Like some of the posters above, I still have 25 years so to go. The IT industry is changing so rapidly - something you could spend a couple of years learning full-time is null and void, and then you have to learn the next big thing.
This is a big frustration for me - as an ageing full-stack web developer who cut his teeth writing CGI scripts back in the 1990s.IT training and learning is like trying to hit a moving target. You pick something, and by the time you've mastered it - you find out it's obsolete. If you become an early adopter of a new technology to try and stay ahead of the curve, there's a good chance it will be a flop, and never take off. I remember a few years back, a lot of people in my company learning Microsoft Silverlight, because they were convinced it was the next big thing (I was always dubious). A few years later, and it was dead in the water.
In almost 30 years, I've realised you can't win really.
On the other hand, some people have cut out a niche from being experts in old technology. A couple of years back, I met a COBOL programmer earning big money working for a bank.
We did the silverlight thing. Waste of time.
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