RE: Tesla beats Taycan 'ring time...

RE: Tesla beats Taycan 'ring time...

Tuesday 5th November

Tesla Model S clocks unofficial 7:13 'Ring time

Musk's semi-slick and wing-wearing EV goes 29 seconds quicker than the Taycan... we think



The Tesla Model S that's been hammering around the Nurburgring in recent weeks has been timed by our spies lapping at 7:13, making it 29 seconds quicker than the Porsche Taycan and just 13 seconds off the time set by Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt in the Ferrari 488 Pista. Not only is this time unofficial, though, it's been set by a car with a number modifications. Upgrades such as semi-slicks, lowered suspension and significant aero pieces - including a large fixed rear wing - have been added to the standard car, leaving it rather mismatched with Porsche's unaltered Taycan.

Tesla boss Elon Musk has confirmed in a tweet that the firm will produce a Nurburgring-spec version of the Model S, which is expected to add a three-motor setup to the handful of modifications you can see in the pictures. That would be quite the machine, given that the twin-motor Model S P100D already holds a power advantage over the 93.4kWh Taycan Turbo with its 100kWh lithium-ion-fed powertrain. The Model S's 7:13 lap time doesn't look so unrealistic after all, particularly when we consider that GT star Thomas Mutsch was behind the wheel.


That being said, we're yet to learn whether Musk's Tesla Nurburgring car will go into full production or be a special, limited-run car as so many similarly focussed models are. Plus, Porsche has already stated that there's more time in the Taycan, largely because the car it used to clock that 7:42 time was a 680hp Turbo rather than the 761hp Turbo S, so the battle is far from done. The company would almost certainly need to resort to stickier boots and significant chassis modifications to close the gap to Tesla's unofficial advantage - but that isn't exactly out of the Stuttgart firm's usual scope.

For now, however, Porsche can sit tight knowing it officially remains the maker of the world's fastest production EV between the Green Hell's Bridge and Gantry sections. The ball is firmly in Tesla's court.


Previous story - 23.10.2019


The Tesla Model S that's been hammering around the Nurburgring in recent weeks has been timed by our spies lapping at 7:13, making it 29 seconds quicker than the Porsche Taycan and just 13 seconds off the time set by Sport Auto's Christian Gebhardt in the Ferrari 488 Pista. Not only is this time unofficial, though, it's been set by a car with a number modifications. Upgrades such as semi-slicks, lowered suspension and significant aero pieces - including a large fixed rear wing - have been added to the standard car, leaving it rather mismatched with Porsche's unaltered Taycan.

Tesla boss Elon Musk has confirmed in a tweet that the firm will produce a Nurburgring-spec version of the Model S, which is expected to add a three-motor setup to the handful of modifications you can see in the pictures. That would be quite the machine, given that the twin-motor Model S P100D already holds a power advantage over the 93.4kWh Taycan Turbo with its 100kWh lithium-ion-fed powertrain. The Model S's 7:13 lap time doesn't look so unrealistic after all, particularly when we consider that GT star Thomas Mutsch was behind the wheel.


That being said, we're yet to learn whether Musk's Tesla Nurburgring car will go into full production or be a special, limited-run car as so many similarly focussed models are. Plus, Porsche has already stated that there's more time in the Taycan, largely because the car it used to clock that 7:42 time was a 680hp Turbo rather than the 761hp Turbo S, so the battle is far from done. The company would almost certainly need to resort to stickier boots and significant chassis modifications to close the gap to Tesla's unofficial advantage - but that isn't exactly out of the Stuttgart firm's usual scope.

For now, however, Porsche can sit tight knowing it officially remains the maker of the world's fastest production EV between the Green Hell's Bridge and Gantry sections. The ball is firmly in Tesla's court.


Previous story - 23.10.2019


The addition of an enormous fixed rear wing to Tesla’s Nurburgring Model S is a bit of a thinker. Is the Californian firm intent on not just besting the Porsche Taycan’s lap time, but blowing it into the weeds? Or does it genuinely need that much help? This being Tesla, it might even be a rib-poking dig at everyone who’s already pointed out that completely remaking the Model S to outdo its rival’s production record is rather missing the point of the β€˜production’ bit.

Chances are though that it’s the first one. The fixed item isn’t dissimilar in size to the one fitted to Electric GT’s racing Model S, and joins the massive diffuser, front splitter and semi-slick tyres in the β€˜Ring car’s extensive track makeover. The tints are said to be hiding a stripped-out interior and roll cage, as well, while the car’s stance suggests the suspension is comprised of coilovers with camber adjustment.

Given that Porsche did its Bridge to Gantry lap in 680hp Turbo form (leaving room for a quicker run with the 761hp Turbo S variant) there’s a good chance that Tesla is trying to build some margin into its attempt. Its German rival has already hinted that there’s plenty more left in the Taycan after Tesla unofficially claimed to have beaten the Porsche time by 19 seconds. There’s been nothing more on that claim since, so there’s every chance this latest track-spec Model S is Tesla trying to make its β€˜predicted’ time happen in the real world.Β 




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Previous story - 16.10.2019


A record attempt involving Elon Musk and Tesla was never going to be dull, as the past few weeks at the Nurburgring have shown. You'll recall Porsche set a record lap with a Taycan, Tesla intimated it could go quicker, then the world realised that the 7:42 Taycan was a Turbo, not more powerful Turbo S.

Presumably pre-empting an even faster Porsche lap at some point, Tesla has now gone further with its Model S prototypes; the blue car seen before is now sporting some additional outlets behind the front wheels (surely there to aid brake cooling) as well as a diffuser fit for a GT3 car. It really is an incredible piece of aero addenda, and will help with high-speed stability on some of the Nordschleife's faster sections. Every second counts when going for a record!


Quite what they'll yield in terms of a lap time isn't yet known, with Elon Musk not mentioning in any of his (many) recent Tweets anything about the car. Tesla will presumably be keen to establish enough of an advantage over the Taycan that, even when the Turbo S invariably does its lap, this Model S will still be ahead. Given how this car looks, and how much time Tesla is spending at the 'ring, you would have to assume a lap time is following soon. Perhaps they're waiting for a time where temperatures are cool enough to keep the batteries at the right temperature, but not so cold that tyres can't get warm; do that before the weather turns for the winter and the record is there for a few months.

Nobody knows for certain, though it's certainly intriguing to watch from afar. Tesla could add further legitimacy to its lap, whenever it might be completed, by creating a Model S road racer special to mark the occasion. But perhaps we're getting ahead of ourselves for now...









UPDATE 20/09/2019:
Tesla has updated the speculation around its lap time at the Nurburgring with this Tweet, its data suggesting a 7:20 lap should be possible. And that's kind of it for now, although expect plenty more in due course...

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ORIGINAL STORY, 17/09/2019

Never in a million years, or for however long he might live, was Elon Musk going to allow Porsche simply to steal his EV saloon glory. Hence the Laguna Seca lap, and the recent emergence of pics showing a Model S at the Nurburgring, a pretty blatant riposte to the Taycan securing a 7:42 lap there. Tesla was going to have that record for themselves, thanks very much.

Now, the Model S is far from a natural track car, hence the modifications made to this one - it's lower than standard, and appears to have wider tracks as well. The most interesting change in that vain, though, is in the tyres, which look to be near-slick prototype Goodyears. Typically your 'ring record supercar will use the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R or the Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R, so this could be considered an unexpected move. Moreover, they're believed to be the Eagle F1 Supersport RS tyres that aren't even yet on sale - no better way to announce new performance rubber than with a lap record.


What that record might be remains to be seen; our spy snapper suggests that Tesla will publish an official lap time by the end of this week - the week of the Porsche Taycan media launch, no less - but has timed it himself at 7:23, or 19 seconds faster than the Porsche. Now, of course, the word of a man stood by the side of the Nordschleife with his Casio can not be taken as gospel, as all manner of factors are at play. Imagine, though, if the Tesla could surpass the Taycan by such a margin - the Turbo S would have to become a GT2 RS sooner than we thought...

While there's still a lot of conjecture around just what a Model S is capable of at the Nurburgring, it's also clear there's not very long to wait for a definitive answer. We're told to expect a first attempt from drivers Thomas Mutsch, Andreas Simonsen and Carl Rydquist tomorrow evening in the industry pool session, followed up by a second at the weekend. Beating Porsche at the Nurburgring would be some way for Musk, the architect of so many industry-defying escapades, to steal the Taycan's thunder at launch - and who would bet against him wanting to do just that?



[Pics: S. Baldauf/S.B. Medien]

Author
Discussion

Nightshade

Original Poster:

58 posts

133 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
7:23 is the same time as the Jaguar XE SV Project 8. Impressive.

dvs_dave

5,613 posts

172 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Quite remarkable if it turns out to be true, with virtually no development or testing time involved. I was expecting Tesla to have massive overheating problems as they always seem to have (earlier versions at least) whenever they’re pushed hard for any length of time. Ie beyond a few 1/4 mile party tricks.

The innards must be very different to earlier versions as software tweaks can’t just suddenly make power electronics, batteries, and motors all of a sudden be able to handle prolonged track duty.

Pobsey

4 posts

49 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Will I be able to go into a Tesla dealership, sorry Tesla website and order a car that can do that ring time? That car looks far from a production Model S...

Dave Hedgehog

11,718 posts

151 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
dvs_dave said:
Quite remarkable if it turns out to be true, with virtually no development or testing time involved. I was expecting Tesla to have massive overheating problems as they always seem to have (earlier versions at least) whenever they’re pushed hard for any length of time. Ie beyond a few 1/4 mile party tricks.

The innards must be very different to earlier versions as software tweaks can’t just suddenly make power electronics, batteries, and motors all of a sudden be able to handle prolonged track duty.
i suspect its a roadster rollerskate with a model S body glued to it

lovely colour

Jordan210

1,811 posts

130 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
I assume the reason its fully blacked out including windscreen so you can see it has no interior and extra motors and so on ?

I hope Telsa release the spec of the car. So we know how close to being a production car it is.

Jon_S_Rally

638 posts

35 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
The clear spoiler thing is a bit weird, but this isn't a bad looking car overall. The Model S is the best looking Tesla by a huge margin. The X and 3 look clumsy and over-tall by comparison.

Is this high performance version going to be available to buy? If it isn't it makes the Porsche comparison a bit pointless, surely?

skidskid

156 posts

88 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Porsche was about repeatability so could do that lap time over and over again, like its launches. I wonder how many laps in a row the Tesla could do before it had a technical issue? (removing range from the equation obviously).

Dave Hedgehog

11,718 posts

151 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Jon_S_Rally said:
The clear spoiler thing is a bit weird, but this isn't a bad looking car overall. The Model S is the best looking Tesla by a huge margin. The X and 3 look clumsy and over-tall by comparison.

Is this high performance version going to be available to buy? If it isn't it makes the Porsche comparison a bit pointless, surely?
electric jebus says the plaid upgrade will be available on the X and S

so 50/50 it will happen?

skidskid said:
Porsche was about repeatability so could do that lap time over and over again, like its launches. I wonder how many laps in a row the Tesla could do before it had a technical issue? (removing range from the equation obviously).
The model 3s performance is totally repeatable, the S is a pretty old design, it sounds like this is a couple of steps further forward of tesla evolution

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Tuesday 17th September 13:44

yonex

15,515 posts

115 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Nice to see they nicked a Sagaris spoiler biggrin

Given the fact its in full 'Slough specification' I wonder how much of the interior is actually left? Exaclty what have they done to the battery system to extract (I would have thought) more power, and to the chassis, outside of the Halfords wheel arch extensions? Likely running some quite decent dampers etc?

To conclude, about as relevant as any other prototype car setting a time. But as usual, any news is good for the egomaniac Musk.

Nice colour though.

gregf40mark2

22 posts

7 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
skidskid said:
Porsche was about repeatability so could do that lap time over and over again, like its launches. I wonder how many laps in a row the Tesla could do before it had a technical issue? (removing range from the equation obviously).
Who cares? It's a road car - not an endurance racer.

Maldini35

2,239 posts

135 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
skidskid said:
Porsche was about repeatability so could do that lap time over and over again, like its launches. I wonder how many laps in a row the Tesla could do before it had a technical issue? (removing range from the equation obviously).
That is just speculation though.
I know you said "I wonder" but the implication was that Porsche can & Tesla can't.
The truth is we just don't know.
Do we know for sure if the production spec Taycan can repeat the feat over and over?





PhantomPH

3,131 posts

172 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
I'm in the same mode of thinking as everyone else - the Porsche appeared to use a pretty much 'production' car (albeit with track-spec road tyres), but this Model S seems to have been modified to high heavens in order to do this. Wider track, non-road legal tyres (near as makes no difference), additional spoilers and well done to the person who pointed out the FULL window tints...hiding what I wonder?

Impressive - but feels a bit like a 100m sprinter who is on roids...hardly sporting and somewhat less impressive as a result.

Swine Enthusiast

44 posts

51 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
So in order to beat the Taycan time, you take a retail car, completely change the brakes to an AP Big Brake kit, suspension totally reworked potentially with third party kit, the wick turned up on the batteries so it lasts 14 miles, extra aero, wider axle and track combined with un-buyable (as of yet) tires. Might as well asked me (or any car enthusiast/Youtuber) how I would of tried to beat the Porsche's time and modded a random car with mods/kit.

Yeah, big well down (slow golf clap).

Max_Torque

14,296 posts

164 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
I think it's worth noting a couple of actual facts:

1) Porsche have years of experience of people claiming they've beaten their models laps time around the ring. It makes no difference to their sales. If you want a Porsche, you'll buy one

2) Often, it turns out that the "beaten" carries a few important caveats, such as "not actually a production car" or "not actually on production tyres" etc etc

3) The current Taycan lap, is i suggest, nowhere near the maximum performance of that car. Go watch the lap (it's on you tube) the car uses no kerbs, misses apexes, and in fact, the driver at no point is "on it" at any significant level. If you want a comparison, watch the Taycan lap side by side with the Renault Trophy RS lap (7.40 plays 7.42) and the differences in attack and commitment are extremely obvious. At some points, the RS is 20 kph (yes 20!) faster at the apex, and brakes yards later

Here's what i think might happen:

1) Tesla will trumpet they are "faster"
2) Porsche will give them a few weeks to bask in their glory, then quietly go out, throw their not inconsiderable Ring Team at it, and claim it back
3) In the mean time, people will write total bolleux like "Tesla CRUSHES Porsche" etc etc

Dave Hedgehog

11,718 posts

151 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Maldini35 said:
Do we know for sure if the production spec Taycan can repeat the feat over and over?
I think Jonny posted they where spanking the Taycan all morning when they shot this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU

Tesla driver drained the battery of his M3P on track with only the SoC affecting performance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fzPWJfTmnY


skidskid

156 posts

88 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
gregf40mark2 said:
Who cares? It's a road car - not an endurance racer.
You would if you bought one with your own money and it broke because you were driving it fast or did one to many launches in insane mode. It stinks of desperation, where as Porsche have gone fast without even really trying it seems.

Wadeski

6,576 posts

160 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
I must say it does feel a quite "2019" to have the excitement about Ring times and limited edition track specials be in the electric car category.

Looking at the spec of this car it looks less like a software upgrade and more like a //M or RS model. Which is fine, no one begrudges Porsche setting records with a GT2 RS rather than a base 911.

Exige77

3,962 posts

138 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Historically Porsche can always deliver what they claim. If anything, they are known to under claim their performance.

As for Tesla / Musk, well there’s an old South African saying that means something other than ...............

u9ge

23 posts

6 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Do remember this started life as an exec saloon, not quite the concept or pedigree that the Taycan has come from. As for those asking whether it is buyable, you'd expect Tesla to make them available for a silly price similar to most other heavily modded production cars.

I am keen to know what's inside given Tesla chat was that this was a new seven seat model...

Dave Hedgehog

11,718 posts

151 months

Tuesday 17th September
quotequote all
Wadeski said:
I must say it does feel a quite "2019" to have the excitement about Ring times and limited edition track specials be in the electric car category.

Looking at the spec of this car it looks less like a software upgrade and more like a //M or RS model. Which is fine, no one begrudges Porsche setting records with a GT2 RS rather than a base 911.
Musk has said its the 3 motor 'Plaid' performance platform that's being developed for the roadster