RE: Vanderhall autocycle gets 194hp and actual doors

RE: Vanderhall autocycle gets 194hp and actual doors

Wednesday 9th October

Vanderhall autocycle gets 194hp and actual doors

Front-driven three-wheeler gets a GM-sourced four-pot and suicide doors



If, say, you were a prospective customer of autocycle maker Vanderhall that has been begging for something more practical, the Utah company now has you covered – quite literally – with this new offering. Fans of the very (very) niche three-wheeler segment may recognise the new Carmel’s form from the 2016 Venice, but new for 2019 is a GM-supplied four-pot engine, actual doors and (presumably to keep the Midwest US sun off its customer’s heads) a removable roof. Morgan 3 Wheeler, eat your V-twin heart out.

Despite a sizeable bump in power over its Vanderhall siblings, the Carmel’s engine sends drive to the front wheels via a six-speed automatic gearbox, meaning it’ll come with none of the hilariously accessible throttle oversteer Morgan’s single-wheel-drive 3 Wheeler offers. But in the Vanderhall’s defence, we suspect the boost from that 1.5-litre engine coupled to a pair of boots rather than one ought to give it very strong performance.


Anyway, the likely main draw to the Carmel will be its design, which is part-retro, part-modern, both outside and in. The suicide door-accessible cabin has a simple six-dial instrument cluster and glovebox as the only dashboard features, with a wood-rimmed steering wheel, leather trim and aluminium footrests adding to the theme. Only a pair of steering wheel mounted paddles remind of the juxtaposing ingredients behind the old school.

Sold? To get the top-spec GT variant (which comes with that lid), you’ll need to fork out $43,950 (about Β£36k), but there’s also a $35k (Β£28.6k) Blackjack, which comes in option-light form as a part-blank canvas for your own modifications. Not that any are likely to make it to Blighty, with the US autocycle labelled by Vanderhall as an all-American machine made with US parts only. Something tells us exports to the UK aren’t high on the agenda - although you could always do it yourself. Or you could make do with one of these…




Author
Discussion

Macboy

Original Poster:

452 posts

151 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Front wheel drive and an automatic? In a fun/toy these have to be two of the worst product planning decisions ever made if they want to sell this to anyone who want to actually drive it for fun. It's also not at all inexpensive.

Edited by Macboy on Wednesday 9th October 17:04

redroadster

995 posts

178 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Plenty of UK trike kits that fill this niche at much lower prices .

Ambleton

4,527 posts

138 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
redroadster said:
Plenty of UK trike kits that fill this niche at much lower prices .
Is there? The only vehicle similar I can think of is the Grinnall Scorpion, which is much smaller, bike engined and much more focused. Totally different.

Ambleton

4,527 posts

138 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Macboy said:
Front wheel drive and an automatic? In a fun/toy these have to be two of the worst product planning decisions ever made...
Fwd on a reverse trike is the safest way. Most people dont realise this but with a rwd three wheelers (especially with a phat rear tyre) you can flip them very easily. It's a similar process to high siding a motorbike. I've seen someone do it to a triking and it's pretty scary. Ive also spoken to two other drivers (one Grinnall owner and an owner if a very well built home brew) that have also done it. In fact the inertia was so great that the home build flipped and rolled three times. The driver was seriously hurt, but is okay now.

Morgan get around it by putting a skinny crossply rear tyre on it, which limits grip enough to prevent this issue. It also limits acceleration and cornering grip, hence a well designed fwd three wheeler will run rings around a rwd three wheeler.

Your opinions on the auto box I agree with...


blearyeyedboy

4,866 posts

125 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Ambleton said:
Lots of sensible stuff about the physics of 3 wheelers.
Absolutely correct, though I'd be a little more forgiving of the autobox.

It is imperative for the stability of a 3 whether to have as much weight as far forward as possible. FWD does this neatly.

I quite like the idea of this. My pockets aren't deep enough though.

Macboy

Original Poster:

452 posts

151 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Ambleton said:
Fwd on a reverse trike is the safest way. Most people dont realise this but with a rwd three wheelers (especially with a phat rear tyre) you can flip them very easily. It's a similar process to high siding a motorbike. I've seen someone do it to a triking and it's pretty scary. Ive also spoken to two other drivers (one Grinnall owner and an owner if a very well built home brew) that have also done it. In fact the inertia was so great that the home build flipped and rolled three times. The driver was seriously hurt, but is okay now.

Morgan get around it by putting a skinny crossply rear tyre on it, which limits grip enough to prevent this issue. It also limits acceleration and cornering grip, hence a well designed fwd three wheeler will run rings around a rwd three wheeler.

Your opinions on the auto box I agree with...
What about the Polaris Slingshot - classifies in the YS as a motorcycle but styled like a KTM and not dissimilar to this. That I have driven and it’s RWD and felt pretty nimble and well balanced.

Ambleton

4,527 posts

138 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Macboy said:
What about the Polaris Slingshot - classifies in the YS as a motorcycle but styled like a KTM and not dissimilar to this. That I have driven and it’s RWD and felt pretty nimble and well balanced.
I'd like to have a go in a slingshot, but they are absolutely HUGE. I think they miss the point of a three wheeler, where lightness and simplicity are king... a large 2.4litre i4 GM engine in a car that weighs 800kgs... I think if you were on unclassified roads in the lake district, scotland or wales you'd probably struggle a bit.

Does the slingshot have TC and ABS to reign in that rear wheel?

What usually happens is the rear wheel loses grip mid bend and the rear of the car laterally slides whilst the wheel over rotates. The driver corrects the steering and feathers the throttle, just as the steering is corrected the other way the wheel skips and finds grip as power is reapplied, throwing the mass over the roll centre in the opposite direction to motion very rapidly, causing the whole vehicle to violently flip.

This is the slingshot compared to a scorpion iii




blearyeyedboy

4,866 posts

125 months

Wednesday 9th October
quotequote all
Interestingly, I saw a Polaris in Cambridge this week.
It's stunning in appearance.
It also looks flipping enormous- it made my Golf look dainty.
Perhaps they're relying on mass to keep it stable? If so, I'm not sure I'd agree.

Macboy

Original Poster:

452 posts

151 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Ambleton said:
I'd like to have a go in a slingshot, but they are absolutely HUGE. I think they miss the point of a three wheeler, where lightness and simplicity are king... a large 2.4litre i4 GM engine in a car that weighs 800kgs... I think if you were on unclassified roads in the lake district, scotland or wales you'd probably struggle a bit.

Does the slingshot have TC and ABS to reign in that rear wheel?

What usually happens is the rear wheel loses grip mid bend and the rear of the car laterally slides whilst the wheel over rotates. The driver corrects the steering and feathers the throttle, just as the steering is corrected the other way the wheel skips and finds grip as power is reapplied, throwing the mass over the roll centre in the opposite direction to motion very rapidly, causing the whole vehicle to violently flip.]
I drove it in the US where it didn’t feel huge but agree it’s a car with a wheel missing!

redroadster

995 posts

178 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Ambleton said:
Is there? The only vehicle similar I can think of is the Grinnall Scorpion, which is much smaller, bike engined and much more focused. Totally different.
Buy a kit car magazine or go online there are lots of options available if you care to look.

Ambleton

4,527 posts

138 months

Thursday
quotequote all
redroadster said:
Buy a kit car magazine or go online there are lots of options available if you care to look.
As far as I'm aware:

Grinnall scorpion - the only one remotely close that you can buy
FRS - you can buy and is fwd - ugly though, and tandem seating. They're more hill climb cars really.
JZR - not available
Buckland B3 - not available
Blackjack Avion - not available
Lomax - not available
Blackjack Zero - not available
Razor - not available
Triking - totally different, but they are available to buy. You'll need the thick end of £25k though for a factory build.
Pembleton - same story as triking (I'm building one)
DRK - not available
BRA - not available (although I think SpitfireArt are still going - again, you'll need circa £20k)
Exo sports cars tR1ke - available, although is a naked car with an R1 bolted to the back, totally different.
Rayvolution - not available, single seat though and more like the tR1ke.

I'd love to know of any more. The British Kit car industry really isn't what it once was!





Edited by Ambleton on Thursday 10th October 13:28

TheInternet

2,913 posts

109 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Ambleton said:
Most people dont realise this but with a rwd three wheelers (especially with a phat rear tyre) you can flip them very easily.