Changing company during works
Discussion
Hi,
We were having some major re-modelling of the garden including fences replaced and trees down.
The guys started three days before the lockdown and have done the prep work (cleared a lot of scrub, moved a lot of our existing plants that would potentially get damaged by fallen wood, and stored all our outdoor ornaments and furniture we didn't have space for in an Iso on our drive and had made and delivered the new fence panels and started clearing routes for felling the big (80ft plus) trees.
We've paid company 1 for all this "at cost" which to me seemed reasonable and I'm not going to complain about via bank transfer in March to "company 1 tree services limited".
The guys are going to finish the estimated remaining two-three days work next week or early the following week. However, I've been asked to pay cash now to the skip company directly (originally they were going to pay for the skip as it was cheaper for them to do in under their bulk deal and avoid me having to pay VAT) - £800 for four 8yrd skips (price seems OK, pay cash????).
The four guys finishing the job though are now "company 2 garden services limited"; 'garden services for trees about to fall down are essential, so we can work' who will invoice me fully including VAT, but haven't yet been able to go to a bank to set up a company account, so if I can get cash (and there is a helpful list of cash-points at garages etc which are outside and easy to access during social distancing attached to their Whatsapp message) can I pay them in cash, or pay them to their individual bank accounts for the labour and any other outstanding dues........
Total job value about £6k, £2k already paid. I'm jut a bit worried there is a bit of a scam going on her e- though I know two of the guys and I don't think they be up to owt, but the third one is known as a chancer. I don't know guy number 4.Guys 1 - 3 have done lots of garden work on our road in recent years and tendered our garden before we moved here , hence our continued use for them to trim trees back, and removed the two damaged in the winter storms.
Neighbour reckons company 1 has furloughed their staff and staff are at company 2 instead. How do I pay these guys and stay legal myself? Only pay on invoice?
We were having some major re-modelling of the garden including fences replaced and trees down.
The guys started three days before the lockdown and have done the prep work (cleared a lot of scrub, moved a lot of our existing plants that would potentially get damaged by fallen wood, and stored all our outdoor ornaments and furniture we didn't have space for in an Iso on our drive and had made and delivered the new fence panels and started clearing routes for felling the big (80ft plus) trees.
We've paid company 1 for all this "at cost" which to me seemed reasonable and I'm not going to complain about via bank transfer in March to "company 1 tree services limited".
The guys are going to finish the estimated remaining two-three days work next week or early the following week. However, I've been asked to pay cash now to the skip company directly (originally they were going to pay for the skip as it was cheaper for them to do in under their bulk deal and avoid me having to pay VAT) - £800 for four 8yrd skips (price seems OK, pay cash????).
The four guys finishing the job though are now "company 2 garden services limited"; 'garden services for trees about to fall down are essential, so we can work' who will invoice me fully including VAT, but haven't yet been able to go to a bank to set up a company account, so if I can get cash (and there is a helpful list of cash-points at garages etc which are outside and easy to access during social distancing attached to their Whatsapp message) can I pay them in cash, or pay them to their individual bank accounts for the labour and any other outstanding dues........
Total job value about £6k, £2k already paid. I'm jut a bit worried there is a bit of a scam going on her e- though I know two of the guys and I don't think they be up to owt, but the third one is known as a chancer. I don't know guy number 4.Guys 1 - 3 have done lots of garden work on our road in recent years and tendered our garden before we moved here , hence our continued use for them to trim trees back, and removed the two damaged in the winter storms.
Neighbour reckons company 1 has furloughed their staff and staff are at company 2 instead. How do I pay these guys and stay legal myself? Only pay on invoice?
What, don't pay, then what? It isn't just the VAT. If the same guys furloughed from one firm are working for another firm isn't that a bit off (speaking as someone who has lost 60% of income, but was in a place to accept it and think of early retirement instead). Perhaps I'm raising the moral bar to high and making problems for myself by overthinking and hearing neighbourly scuttlebutt.
I'm happy to pay for work, just don't want to get myself in trouble.
Perhaps I've been sold a duff story, but if you as a homeowner paid in cash knowing tax was been avoided you get liable as well? Will it be like that if
[url]https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2012/08/09/have-you-paid-cash-hand[/url}
I'm happy to pay for work, just don't want to get myself in trouble.
Perhaps I've been sold a duff story, but if you as a homeowner paid in cash knowing tax was been avoided you get liable as well? Will it be like that if
[url]https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2012/08/09/have-you-paid-cash-hand[/url}
Just because you are furloughed doesn't mean you can't work.
As long as you are not working for the company that is furloughing you then what's the issue.
Also nothing wrong with paying cash for the skips you're getting them, i as you are paying now you can shop around for cheaper skips or are you just sour you have to pay the vat now.
As long as you are not working for the company that is furloughing you then what's the issue.
Also nothing wrong with paying cash for the skips you're getting them, i as you are paying now you can shop around for cheaper skips or are you just sour you have to pay the vat now.
Hi no, not sour at all. I did ring for skips and it is a three week lead time and the price is higher so they are still honouring their side of the bargain. Glad to get the work done tbh, Got a mate mid extension laid off wondering how he can put the walls back on his house and sell up as his niche (pilot - still in bonded period) has been killed for many months.
I think my neighbour must be winding me up then if this seems above board. I can't quite see how four guys furloughed from one company (perhaps) can then all form a new four man company that only takes cash to finish works but perhaps I'm being daft.
I shall pay the price I'd agreed to pay and if any future crap is thrown back at me I shall call my fellow phers as defendants. Thanks chaps / chapesses/ others in between!
I think my neighbour must be winding me up then if this seems above board. I can't quite see how four guys furloughed from one company (perhaps) can then all form a new four man company that only takes cash to finish works but perhaps I'm being daft.
I shall pay the price I'd agreed to pay and if any future crap is thrown back at me I shall call my fellow phers as defendants. Thanks chaps / chapesses/ others in between!
So is this the equivalent of Richard Branson furloughing his virgin Atlantic staff.
Then employing them under slag Atlantic and flying the routes his furloughed company can’t fly due to being furloughed? The staff therefore getting furloughed pay and pay off slag Atlantic?
Or have I read it wrong?
As long as you get a receipt and think nothing is wrong I dont see how you have done anything wrong.
Then employing them under slag Atlantic and flying the routes his furloughed company can’t fly due to being furloughed? The staff therefore getting furloughed pay and pay off slag Atlantic?
Or have I read it wrong?
As long as you get a receipt and think nothing is wrong I dont see how you have done anything wrong.
Who actually owns Company A? Is there any danger of Company A having any comeback because you have used Company B to do the work?
Of course it also leads to a moral question as potentially Company A is being paid by HMRC 80% of the salaries of the guys, (up to the limit) and if the owners of Company A are now employing them through Company B, and charging them out at the same rate they are increasing profit by the furlough payments.
This may of course be reasonable except of course the furlough payments are not free money and has to be paid by someone, and that ultimately is us all in taxation.
So you can either admire the entrepreneurial spirit and go ahead, or view it as a moral issue and say no,
Of course it also leads to a moral question as potentially Company A is being paid by HMRC 80% of the salaries of the guys, (up to the limit) and if the owners of Company A are now employing them through Company B, and charging them out at the same rate they are increasing profit by the furlough payments.
This may of course be reasonable except of course the furlough payments are not free money and has to be paid by someone, and that ultimately is us all in taxation.
So you can either admire the entrepreneurial spirit and go ahead, or view it as a moral issue and say no,
Chrisgr31 said:
Who actually owns Company A? Is there any danger of Company A having any comeback because you have used Company B to do the work?
Of course it also leads to a moral question as potentially Company A is being paid by HMRC 80% of the salaries of the guys, (up to the limit) and if the owners of Company A are now employing them through Company B, and charging them out at the same rate they are increasing profit by the furlough payments.
This may of course be reasonable except of course the furlough payments are not free money and has to be paid by someone, and that ultimately is us all in taxation.
So you can either admire the entrepreneurial spirit and go ahead, or view it as a moral issue and say no,
This would be my view too.Of course it also leads to a moral question as potentially Company A is being paid by HMRC 80% of the salaries of the guys, (up to the limit) and if the owners of Company A are now employing them through Company B, and charging them out at the same rate they are increasing profit by the furlough payments.
This may of course be reasonable except of course the furlough payments are not free money and has to be paid by someone, and that ultimately is us all in taxation.
So you can either admire the entrepreneurial spirit and go ahead, or view it as a moral issue and say no,
If they actually have furloughed themselves from company 1 to set up company 2, them personally I'd not be employing them to finish the job, or ever again in the future.
It's had enough that the taxpayer is now paying over a quarter of salaries, without people like this seemingly creating totally fraudulent additional claims!
Kermit power said:
Chrisgr31 said:
Who actually owns Company A? Is there any danger of Company A having any comeback because you have used Company B to do the work?
Of course it also leads to a moral question as potentially Company A is being paid by HMRC 80% of the salaries of the guys, (up to the limit) and if the owners of Company A are now employing them through Company B, and charging them out at the same rate they are increasing profit by the furlough payments.
This may of course be reasonable except of course the furlough payments are not free money and has to be paid by someone, and that ultimately is us all in taxation.
So you can either admire the entrepreneurial spirit and go ahead, or view it as a moral issue and say no,
This would be my view too.Of course it also leads to a moral question as potentially Company A is being paid by HMRC 80% of the salaries of the guys, (up to the limit) and if the owners of Company A are now employing them through Company B, and charging them out at the same rate they are increasing profit by the furlough payments.
This may of course be reasonable except of course the furlough payments are not free money and has to be paid by someone, and that ultimately is us all in taxation.
So you can either admire the entrepreneurial spirit and go ahead, or view it as a moral issue and say no,
If they actually have furloughed themselves from company 1 to set up company 2, them personally I'd not be employing them to finish the job, or ever again in the future.
It's had enough that the taxpayer is now paying over a quarter of salaries, without people like this seemingly creating totally fraudulent additional claims!
Saw this a lot when I was involved with small construction companies.
Check the company status, you will find that co 1 is being put into administration to avoid paying tax (VAT and PAYE) i.e defrauding us. They will also be sidestepping any warranty obligations.
Wouldn’t touch co 2 as they WILL do it again, and again, until they and all their family have all been disqualified from being company directors..
Check the company status, you will find that co 1 is being put into administration to avoid paying tax (VAT and PAYE) i.e defrauding us. They will also be sidestepping any warranty obligations.
Wouldn’t touch co 2 as they WILL do it again, and again, until they and all their family have all been disqualified from being company directors..
StanleyT said:
The four guys finishing the job though are now "company 2 garden services limited"; 'garden services for trees about to fall down are essential, so we can work'
Which is nonsense, landscape gardening and construction were not required to stop by the Government, quite the opposite, they may not realise that though, many found the advice confusing.Their offer that you can pay into their personal bank accounts suggests that if there is fraud involved, they are not very good at it.
I would verify their VAT number before paying any VAT, easy to do online, and it should be on their invoice.
Am I reading this right; have ALL the guys from Company 1 now 'transferred' to Company 2? Or is there anyone left in Company 1 that it might be worth speaking to about this?
It might help to clear things up a bit if you can have a conversation with Company 1 who, after all, would probably be expecting to finish the work as soon as they are able/allowed.
It might help to clear things up a bit if you can have a conversation with Company 1 who, after all, would probably be expecting to finish the work as soon as they are able/allowed.
It sounds to me that Company 1 has most likely Furloughed the staff and claiming off the government, whilst this fantasy Company 2 are the same lads wanting cash in hand payments with hardly any paper trail, hence you having to pay cash for the skips.
I reckon they are on double bubble and trying to screw the Furlough scheme. I wouldn't entertain any of it out of principle.
I reckon they are on double bubble and trying to screw the Furlough scheme. I wouldn't entertain any of it out of principle.
Matt_E_Mulsion said:
It sounds to me that Company 1 has most likely Furloughed the staff and claiming off the government, whilst this fantasy Company 2 are the same lads wanting cash in hand payments with hardly any paper trail, hence you having to pay cash for the skips.
I reckon they are on double bubble and trying to screw the Furlough scheme. I wouldn't entertain any of it out of principle.
Thanks guys, actually you'd put a thought in my head - so I'll e-mail company A to "confirm that they have still suspended works" and that they are OK for me to pay company B for the remaining works and I'll quote their prices back to them for both sets of works. I've no e-mail for company B, but I'll photo the e-mail and send that to their mobile number. That way they both know I know what is going on.I reckon they are on double bubble and trying to screw the Furlough scheme. I wouldn't entertain any of it out of principle.
The lads are good workers it seems and the two we've used over the years seem real nice fellows, not the sort that'd throw a business away just like that but who knows what goes on in the background. Some people are getting caught out in this CV-19 / work malarkey, I've a good friend whom for years played every bit of IR-35 and expenses "to get his tax bill right down" and paying himself minimum wage whilst his "company" bring in over six figures per annum has really come to bite him! He even thought about "applying on his companies behalf (i.e. his Client who ended his contract) for the 80% contract value salary" until it was explained to him how companies claim through payroll, you don't just ring HMRC and they send you a cheque.
hotchy said:
Kermit power said:
Chrisgr31 said:
Who actually owns Company A? Is there any danger of Company A having any comeback because you have used Company B to do the work?
Of course it also leads to a moral question as potentially Company A is being paid by HMRC 80% of the salaries of the guys, (up to the limit) and if the owners of Company A are now employing them through Company B, and charging them out at the same rate they are increasing profit by the furlough payments.
This may of course be reasonable except of course the furlough payments are not free money and has to be paid by someone, and that ultimately is us all in taxation.
So you can either admire the entrepreneurial spirit and go ahead, or view it as a moral issue and say no,
This would be my view too.Of course it also leads to a moral question as potentially Company A is being paid by HMRC 80% of the salaries of the guys, (up to the limit) and if the owners of Company A are now employing them through Company B, and charging them out at the same rate they are increasing profit by the furlough payments.
This may of course be reasonable except of course the furlough payments are not free money and has to be paid by someone, and that ultimately is us all in taxation.
So you can either admire the entrepreneurial spirit and go ahead, or view it as a moral issue and say no,
If they actually have furloughed themselves from company 1 to set up company 2, them personally I'd not be employing them to finish the job, or ever again in the future.
It's had enough that the taxpayer is now paying over a quarter of salaries, without people like this seemingly creating totally fraudulent additional claims!
Secondly, if they've been properly furloughed, then they don't have no wages coming in, do they?
The whole thing just smacks of fraud. If I was in the OP's place, I'd be on the phone to HMRC.
Right decided what to do.
As 'luck' turned out I've lost my cashcard (*), don't know when, haven't used it for weeks not having been anywhere. I probably won't notice though until I go and get somecash out for the guys in a couple of weeks time when they are done and then I won't be able to get through to the bank on the phone and thebranch is shut. Looks like it'll have to be online banking so at least I can show who I've paid.
Annoyed as at first I though this might have been one of those "builders change invoices" scams where some third party gets you and the two lads who've done work here for years and going back 20 years for the previous owner seem honest and clued up chaps. I bet #3 is behind this.
And if i don't get an invoice then a call to HMRC might be on the cards. And to the poster that mentioned about warranties, why would I need one in this instance? In case the trees grow back?
(*) apart from at the local garden centre today which was having an "open day, all stock must go, cash only so no queues at the till"! so I have to go to the cashpoint first. What is it with cash these days!!!!!
As 'luck' turned out I've lost my cashcard (*), don't know when, haven't used it for weeks not having been anywhere. I probably won't notice though until I go and get somecash out for the guys in a couple of weeks time when they are done and then I won't be able to get through to the bank on the phone and thebranch is shut. Looks like it'll have to be online banking so at least I can show who I've paid.
Annoyed as at first I though this might have been one of those "builders change invoices" scams where some third party gets you and the two lads who've done work here for years and going back 20 years for the previous owner seem honest and clued up chaps. I bet #3 is behind this.
And if i don't get an invoice then a call to HMRC might be on the cards. And to the poster that mentioned about warranties, why would I need one in this instance? In case the trees grow back?
(*) apart from at the local garden centre today which was having an "open day, all stock must go, cash only so no queues at the till"! so I have to go to the cashpoint first. What is it with cash these days!!!!!
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