718 GT4 on the Ring (Warning... Shmee content)
Discussion
dashobbit said:
The PDK driver can brake later. Think it through
Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match
PDK: brakes, pulls fingers
Both drivers would also be turning the wheel as they trail brake
There are data traces somewhere, I remember seeing some comparisons
But even without them - how do you think any human can do “more” in the same time as it takes to do less? It makes no sense
A race driver will be able to get the gap between both scenarios down to smaller levels
But average drivers… no chance
I have thought it through, in the example i gave you, if you changed down into 3rd the engine would drop out of the manual and pdk wouldn't allow a lower shift into 3rd. Both cars are braking in the same place to maintain 115mph.Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match
PDK: brakes, pulls fingers
Both drivers would also be turning the wheel as they trail brake
There are data traces somewhere, I remember seeing some comparisons
But even without them - how do you think any human can do “more” in the same time as it takes to do less? It makes no sense
A race driver will be able to get the gap between both scenarios down to smaller levels
But average drivers… no chance
No need to trail brake in my example, a quick dab and that's that.
You do know these manual gearboxes in the 991 and up are semi auto as well, Porsche had lots of complaints from the twinkle toe desert wellie wearing brigade to make the manual better to change gear, hence, the rev-match and flat shift function.
Melvynr said:
dashobbit said:
The PDK driver can brake later. Think it through
Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match
PDK: brakes, pulls fingers
Both drivers would also be turning the wheel as they trail brake
There are data traces somewhere, I remember seeing some comparisons
But even without them - how do you think any human can do “more” in the same time as it takes to do less? It makes no sense
A race driver will be able to get the gap between both scenarios down to smaller levels
But average drivers… no chance
I have thought it through, in the example i gave you, if you changed down into 3rd the engine would drop out of the manual and pdk wouldn't allow a lower shift into 3rd. Both cars are braking in the same place to maintain 115mph.Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match
PDK: brakes, pulls fingers
Both drivers would also be turning the wheel as they trail brake
There are data traces somewhere, I remember seeing some comparisons
But even without them - how do you think any human can do “more” in the same time as it takes to do less? It makes no sense
A race driver will be able to get the gap between both scenarios down to smaller levels
But average drivers… no chance
No need to trail brake in my example, a quick dab and that's that.
You do know these manual gearboxes in the 991 and up are semi auto as well, Porsche had lots of complaints from the twinkle toe desert wellie wearing brigade to make the manual better to change gear, hence, the rev-match and flat shift function.
Melvynr said:
Unfortunately, I don't do track days and the last heel and toe I did were in an Anglia with a 1600 engine.
Everyone knows the Anglia was only available with two engine options Melv, 1000cc and 1200cc. A 1600cc shoehorned into an Anglia would be akin to putting an 3.0 V6 Essex engine into a Mk2 Cortina. Oh, hold on a second ...
dashobbit said:
The PDK driver can brake later. Think it through
Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match
Two words - auto blip. Which can help make things easier in a manual car.Manual: has to brake, and while braking they need to maintain pressure whilst also changing gear, and Rev match
There's no reason why a manual driver can't brake at the same point as a PDK driver and have the exact same line at the same speed if they're skilled enough, with or without auto blip engaged.
But this is the crux of the discussion - it's much easier to do it in a PDK car and with greater consistency lap after lap. However, the PDK car cannot brake later as a general rule as far as I see it.
PDK driver can afford to brake later because they don’t have to get all the braking and gear change done before the corner entry.
In a PDK car, you have a free leg, that isn’t involved in clutching, so that can be used on the brake, with the right foot on the throttle.
Both hands are on the steering and if you are using the paddles to shift you can maintain full balanced control of the car with a lot more brain and motor capacity to spare…. Also you can shift gears mid corner without it upsetting the balance of the car.
With all this in mind, you can push a PDK/paddleshift car harder and deeper into a corner entry. Auto blip on a manual gearbox is helpful, but you still cant just mash through the box, so you still need to be measured. It’s a workout for sure, but you can take real liberties with PDK and depending on what kind of driver you are (mentality) this means you’ll keep pushing the threshold further and further. At this point the driving it is very engaging, as you’re trying eek out even more margin on the entry braking and turn-in.
In a PDK car, you have a free leg, that isn’t involved in clutching, so that can be used on the brake, with the right foot on the throttle.
Both hands are on the steering and if you are using the paddles to shift you can maintain full balanced control of the car with a lot more brain and motor capacity to spare…. Also you can shift gears mid corner without it upsetting the balance of the car.
With all this in mind, you can push a PDK/paddleshift car harder and deeper into a corner entry. Auto blip on a manual gearbox is helpful, but you still cant just mash through the box, so you still need to be measured. It’s a workout for sure, but you can take real liberties with PDK and depending on what kind of driver you are (mentality) this means you’ll keep pushing the threshold further and further. At this point the driving it is very engaging, as you’re trying eek out even more margin on the entry braking and turn-in.
Slippydiff said:
Everyone knows the Anglia was only available with two engine options Melv, 1000cc and 1200cc. A 1600cc shoehorned into an Anglia would be akin to putting an 3.0 V6 Essex engine into a Mk2 Cortina.
Oh, hold on a second ...
Used to have some fun with them, 5 or 6 of us messing about.Used to look epic with rolled arches and paint job and like the ant hill mob with us all sat in it.Oh, hold on a second ...
Slippydiff said:
Melvynr said:
Unfortunately, I don't do track days and the last heel and toe I did were in an Anglia with a 1600 engine.
Everyone knows the Anglia was only available with two engine options Melv, 1000cc and 1200cc. A 1600cc shoehorned into an Anglia would be akin to putting an 3.0 V6 Essex engine into a Mk2 Cortina. Oh, hold on a second ...
here is the same driver in the manual car BTW posting just about the same time as the PDK car.
so you can see where each car is faster or slower and the greater work load difference for the driver.
https://youtu.be/awuvYmTbhuM manual
https://youtu.be/7xyiT3-28os PDK
no need to talk resale, or which box is better, neither are in question.
it was the skill needed to drive a manual is MUCH higher if you want to post a PDK leveling lap time.
I think after 14 miles the ring time gap is 2 seconds, PDK faster of course, and above the PDK was 2/10th faster over all.
what we do know is a PDK gains 2/10th every gear change and as there are many changes on a lap the Manual cars making up for it in other area's if you have the skill to get the best from it.
if you just said to people 0-100 the PDK is faster you miss the point, as then the PDK should lap many many seconds faster than manuals but they don't.
Every 5 changes of gear should equal 1 second faster and that's not the case.
At the end of the day one is far easier to drive than the other if you aim for the same lap time. Why that upsets owners of each Box is just odd unless you have an inferiority complex on the choices you made.
so you can see where each car is faster or slower and the greater work load difference for the driver.
https://youtu.be/awuvYmTbhuM manual
https://youtu.be/7xyiT3-28os PDK
no need to talk resale, or which box is better, neither are in question.
it was the skill needed to drive a manual is MUCH higher if you want to post a PDK leveling lap time.
I think after 14 miles the ring time gap is 2 seconds, PDK faster of course, and above the PDK was 2/10th faster over all.
what we do know is a PDK gains 2/10th every gear change and as there are many changes on a lap the Manual cars making up for it in other area's if you have the skill to get the best from it.
if you just said to people 0-100 the PDK is faster you miss the point, as then the PDK should lap many many seconds faster than manuals but they don't.
Every 5 changes of gear should equal 1 second faster and that's not the case.
At the end of the day one is far easier to drive than the other if you aim for the same lap time. Why that upsets owners of each Box is just odd unless you have an inferiority complex on the choices you made.
Edited by DavidLankaster on Monday 13th September 15:10
TDT said:
PDK driver can afford to brake later because they don’t have to get all the braking and gear change done before the corner entry.
In a PDK car, you have a free leg, that isn’t involved in clutching, so that can be used on the brake, with the right foot on the throttle.
Both hands are on the steering and if you are using the paddles to shift you can maintain full balanced control of the car with a lot more brain and motor capacity to spare…. Also you can shift gears mid corner without it upsetting the balance of the car.
With all this in mind, you can push a PDK/paddleshift car harder and deeper into a corner entry. Auto blip on a manual gearbox is helpful, but you still cant just mash through the box, so you still need to be measured. It’s a workout for sure, but you can take real liberties with PDK and depending on what kind of driver you are (mentality) this means you’ll keep pushing the threshold further and further. At this point the driving it is very engaging, as you’re trying eek out even more margin on the entry braking and turn-in.
This ^^In a PDK car, you have a free leg, that isn’t involved in clutching, so that can be used on the brake, with the right foot on the throttle.
Both hands are on the steering and if you are using the paddles to shift you can maintain full balanced control of the car with a lot more brain and motor capacity to spare…. Also you can shift gears mid corner without it upsetting the balance of the car.
With all this in mind, you can push a PDK/paddleshift car harder and deeper into a corner entry. Auto blip on a manual gearbox is helpful, but you still cant just mash through the box, so you still need to be measured. It’s a workout for sure, but you can take real liberties with PDK and depending on what kind of driver you are (mentality) this means you’ll keep pushing the threshold further and further. At this point the driving it is very engaging, as you’re trying eek out even more margin on the entry braking and turn-in.
Changing gear takes whatever it does - 0.5s say. Also involves moving your hand, having hand off the wheel etc
PDK does it quicker and with minimal faff, so as a result you can brake later
I wish I could find the traces now as I'm sure this comparison has been done - same type of car, same driver, same track
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