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Daimler 250 V8 engine mods

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RW774

1,042 posts

139 months

Wednesday 23rd September 2009
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Dave , for what it`s worth, my opinion of megasquirt not good.

dave de roxby

Original Poster:

540 posts

111 months

Wednesday 23rd September 2009
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RW774 said:
Dave , for what it`s worth, my opinion of megasquirt not good.
Know nothing about it at the moment but see quite a few advertised on eBay - wonder why?

RW774

1,042 posts

139 months

Thursday 24th September 2009
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Dave I know some of the XJS V12 racers have tried it without much success.From information recieved from our rolling road tuner, it is exceedingly difficult to program correctly and when finished, the parameters can ,for some reason drop out of the Map. That ,in my experience means the software is rubbish.The old adage,`you only get what you pay for` springs to mind.

aeropilot

13,005 posts

143 months

Thursday 24th September 2009
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I'm also aware of a couple of guys that had gone with Megasquirt but have since gone over to using Nira instead, but I don't know for what reasons exactly.

dave de roxby

Original Poster:

540 posts

111 months

Thursday 24th September 2009
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Well, thanks for that guys. I need some ideas here. I, of couse, know the basics of EFI but have never had to apply it to a new project before. My starting thoughts were to try and adapt an existing production system - plenty available in scrapyards! However, I have taken in all the points made by various posters to this thread with great interest. Maybe an aftermarket system would give me better flexibility? I know these exist but have no experience of them so I'm all ears!

(Will be out for the rest of the day. Have to move my '69 XJ6 Mk1 (manual) from friend's garage before his wife goes spare! Problem - where the hell am I going to put it?? Then there's the '65 MGB GT and the Humber Sceptre round at Bob's - his wife none too happy either. Then there's the XJ12C and the Daimler 4.2 at ...... oh my goodness, what have I done!!!)
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jith

2,677 posts

131 months

Thursday 24th September 2009
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But whatever you do Dave, don't even consider using K-Jet with its rock solid, tried and proven, almost 40 year totally dependable history on such mundane cars as the Quattro and Saab turbo!! It would be too much trouble! And all of it available second hand! rolleyeswink

(Sorry lads, couldn't resist it!)

dave de roxby

Original Poster:

540 posts

111 months

Thursday 24th September 2009
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jith said:
But whatever you do Dave, don't even consider using K-Jet with its rock solid, tried and proven, almost 40 year totally dependable history on such mundane cars as the Quattro and Saab turbo!! It would be too much trouble! And all of it available second hand! rolleyeswink

(Sorry lads, couldn't resist it!)
Not ruling anything out at this point. I have sung the praises of K-Jet myself in years gone by. Had a run of Sciroccos (Scalas, Storms and Gtx) and a couple of Golf Gtis, all with K-Jet. Totally reliable as far as I was concerned and much fun had. But is it the best way to optimise my project in 2009 (2010 more realistic!). Must dash - Jag to move!

arrow v8

8 posts

91 months

Sunday 27th September 2009
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Hi there!! Can't believe I've stumbled across this thread cos I am also considering ways to get more out of the old daimler 'hemi' unit but for different reasons. I have a '72 Sunbeam Rapier that I bought 18 months ago and have replaced the usual tin wormed areas such as sills, valence panels, floor etc etc..... Having gone through a considerable amount of welding wire I decided that the car would look better if it took on the '68 model Barracuda look rather than the '65 it was based upon so got the welding rig out again and is now almost complete..... just need to finish redecking the H120 boot lid I bought..... which is cut into several pieces along with the lid I nicked from a friends Peugout 405 (can never spell it) and now needs welding together to match the new rear end profile which is about 100mm higher than the original. Is hard to explain but I'll try to put some pics on if anyone is interested.

Anyways.... back to the engine. This car is crying out for a V8 and of course like everyone else I immediately thought Rover but..... having a '72 Opel Manta in my lock up as well, I am aware that although it is possible to put the rover unit into small european sized 70's coupes there are almost always compromises to be made with such items as servo units cross members and heaters. For a daily driver fuel consumption has to be an issue with current petroleum prices being more volatile than the fuel itself! I have read that the daimler unit was a lot less thirsty than the Rover and in a small car should be very interesting having almost 80% more horses and bags more torque than the 1725cc rusty nail Chrysler sold the car with.

Anyway.... a friend of mine has a V8 saloon so we measured it up and found that not only will it go in... I don't have to freeze my *ss off if I want to drive it in cold weather, which where I live is most all year round. Anyway.... my idea is to convert the engine to run on LPG and bearing in mind the strength the bottom end of this engine has..... should lend itself nicely to a little turbo charging. This will increase the compression ratio and burn more of the gas in the cylinder and exhaust less unburnt fuel. This can only be done because LPG has a higher octane value than petrol. So more bang for your buck and better performance too. At the moment the only snags I've come across are that you could not dual fuel for obvious reasons and that an after market electronic ignition system will be required to provide the ignition settings needed to burn LPG with turbo's fitted.

To get round the dual fuel problem I'm fitting 2 tanks one in the boot where the existing petrol tank is and one underneath where the spare tyre is. That way I can switch over from an empty tank to the reserve tank using solenoid valves from inside the car. Oh and LPG is currently around half the price of petrol so I'm hoping to get a cost figure of around the equivalent of 45 mpg by using LPG instead. Not sure if all this is any help to you but is another option as in theory you could double the output of the engine quite easily providing.......

1) The transmission you are using can cope with the extra torque
2) You can live with 2 LPG tanks rather than usual dual fuel option.

aeropilot

13,005 posts

143 months

Sunday 27th September 2009
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arrow v8 said:
Hi there!! Can't believe I've stumbled across this thread cos I am also considering ways to get more out of the old daimler 'hemi' unit but for different reasons. I have a '72 Sunbeam Rapier that I bought 18 months ago and have replaced the usual tin wormed areas such as sills, valence panels, floor etc etc..... Having gone through a considerable amount of welding wire I decided that the car would look better if it took on the '68 model Barracuda look rather than the '65 it was based upon so got the welding rig out again and is now almost complete..... just need to finish redecking the H120 boot lid I bought..... which is cut into several pieces along with the lid I nicked from a friends Peugout 405 (can never spell it) and now needs welding together to match the new rear end profile which is about 100mm higher than the original. Is hard to explain but I'll try to put some pics on if anyone is interested.

Anyways.... back to the engine. This car is crying out for a V8 and of course like everyone else I immediately thought Rover but..... having a '72 Opel Manta in my lock up as well, I am aware that although it is possible to put the rover unit into small european sized 70's coupes there are almost always compromises to be made with such items as servo units cross members and heaters. For a daily driver fuel consumption has to be an issue with current petroleum prices being more volatile than the fuel itself! I have read that the daimler unit was a lot less thirsty than the Rover and in a small car should be very interesting having almost 80% more horses and bags more torque than the 1725cc rusty nail Chrysler sold the car with.

Anyway.... a friend of mine has a V8 saloon so we measured it up and found that not only will it go in... I don't have to freeze my *ss off if I want to drive it in cold weather, which where I live is most all year round. Anyway.... my idea is to convert the engine to run on LPG and bearing in mind the strength the bottom end of this engine has..... should lend itself nicely to a little turbo charging. This will increase the compression ratio and burn more of the gas in the cylinder and exhaust less unburnt fuel. This can only be done because LPG has a higher octane value than petrol. So more bang for your buck and better performance too. At the moment the only snags I've come across are that you could not dual fuel for obvious reasons and that an after market electronic ignition system will be required to provide the ignition settings needed to burn LPG with turbo's fitted.

To get round the dual fuel problem I'm fitting 2 tanks one in the boot where the existing petrol tank is and one underneath where the spare tyre is. That way I can switch over from an empty tank to the reserve tank using solenoid valves from inside the car. Oh and LPG is currently around half the price of petrol so I'm hoping to get a cost figure of around the equivalent of 45 mpg by using LPG instead. Not sure if all this is any help to you but is another option as in theory you could double the output of the engine quite easily providing.......

1) The transmission you are using can cope with the extra torque
2) You can live with 2 LPG tanks rather than usual dual fuel option.
Brave man......

But......turbo charging a Daimler Hemi will be interesting, and expensive too with having to get new low compression pistons made for it, and a whole new carb/inj/manifolding system for it.

Just put a small block Ford V8 into, a very compact V8 (as per the Sunbeam-Tiger) ......... easy horspower (more than you'll ever get out of the much rarer Daimler) for an awful lots less hassle.


arrow v8

8 posts

91 months

Sunday 27th September 2009
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aeropilot said:
Brave man......

But......turbo charging a Daimler Hemi will be interesting, and expensive too with having to get new low compression pistons made for it, and a whole new carb/inj/manifolding system for it.

Just put a small block Ford V8 into, a very compact V8 (as per the Sunbeam-Tiger) ......... easy horspower (more than you'll ever get out of the much rarer Daimler) for an awful lots less hassle.
Sorry.... I should have pointed out that the LPG solution doesn't require low compression pistons due to the higher octane rating. LPG ideally needs a compression ratio of around 12:1 in order to give the same power per litre burnt as you get from petrol. This why you find that cars use slightly more LPG than they do petrol for the same distance travelled and is also why some folks wrongly believe that it is a less potent fuel than petrol. It is slightly more potent than petrol when burnt under optimum conditions...... it's just that manufacturers design their engines primarily to burn petrol so the compression ratios are calculated with petrol burning in mind. So..... as I should have said earlier there is no need for low compression pistons and this is why you cannot 'dual fuel' the engine.

arrow v8

8 posts

91 months

Sunday 27th September 2009
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Should also have said that I'm using the original manifold as well as there is no need to change any of the fueling fittings. You could even leave the carbs on if you wanted but from past experience I probably won't as I have used the BLOS LPG carb' before and found better throttle response and improved fuel consumption by using a variable orifice mixer over the standard fixed orifice types (the plate type ones that are mounted on the studs between the carb' and the manifold). For a V engine you could use one but two is best as is the case with carbs.... they are available new for around £100 (GBP) each so is not a lot of money when I look at how much I've spent on the project so far.

dave de roxby

Original Poster:

540 posts

111 months

Sunday 27th September 2009
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[quote=aeropilot
Brave man......

But......turbo charging a Daimler Hemi will be interesting, and expensive too with having to get new low compression pistons made for it, and a whole new carb/inj/manifolding system for it.

Just put a small block Ford V8 into, a very compact V8 (as per the Sunbeam-Tiger) ......... easy horspower (more than you'll ever get out of the much rarer Daimler) for an awful lots less hassle.


[/quote]

Whilst this is an aside from my original topic, it's an interesting idea nontheless! A few comments: nice idea but dont think the Daimler unit is really appropriate for an 'Arrocuda'. Agree with the above that a small block Ford would be an easier and more rewarding conversion. You might read earlier in my thread that I had a mildly breathed on 260 ci Sunbeam Tiger at one time and performance up to about 80 mph was incredible. After that, it was f***in' dangerous, wouldn't stop easily or go round corners but made a glorious sound. All this was in central Africa. I once set off for work at five past seven and still managed to get there at seven o'clock - that's fast! Just by the way, the standard compression ratio of the Daimler is only 8.2:1. I've been searching for suitable pistons to cope with a possible rebore to 3.0 litres but no luck so far. Also, I'm seriously doubting the feasibility anyway of sleeveing the Daimler to up the capacity. As far as I can see, it would mean cutting right into the waterways and, although this is dimensionally possible (if I can find some pistons!), I think it would weaken the block considerably. But no doubt, someone will tell me different!

arrow v8

8 posts

91 months

Sunday 27th September 2009
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dave de roxby said:
Whilst this is an aside from my original topic, it's an interesting idea nontheless! A few comments: nice idea but dont think the Daimler unit is really appropriate for an 'Arrocuda'. Agree with the above that a small block Ford would be an easier and more rewarding conversion. You might read earlier in my thread that I had a mildly breathed on 260 ci Sunbeam Tiger at one time and performance up to about 80 mph was incredible. After that, it was f***in' dangerous, wouldn't stop easily or go round corners but made a glorious sound. All this was in central Africa. I once set off for work at five past seven and still managed to get there at seven o'clock - that's fast! Just by the way, the standard compression ratio of the Daimler is only 8.2:1. I've been searching for suitable pistons to cope with a possible rebore to 3.0 litres but no luck so far. Also, I'm seriously doubting the feasibility anyway of sleeveing the Daimler to up the capacity. As far as I can see, it would mean cutting right into the waterways and, although this is dimensionally possible (if I can find some pistons!), I think it would weaken the block considerably. But no doubt, someone will tell me different!
Hi Dave...... It's on topic in the sense that it's another option as to getting more power from your V8 for spending very little money (relatively). As I said in my last posts.... with LPG you don't need to rebore or change pistons....... the only major costs are the turbo's and the exhaust mod's... The only thing you have to ask yourself is......... Can I run the vehicle on LPG only? From a practical point of view. Is easy for me with 2 LPG stations in the town with one of them less than a mile away.

Love the 'Arrocuda' moniker..... do you mind if I use it?

Edited by arrow v8 on Sunday 27th September 21:15


Edited by arrow v8 on Sunday 27th September 21:16

dave de roxby

Original Poster:

540 posts

111 months

Sunday 27th September 2009
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[quote=arrow v8
Love the 'Arrocuda' moniker..... do you mind if I use it?

Edited by arrow v8 on Sunday 27th September 21:15


Hi arrow V8, Be my guest! I'm getting good with names. Currently building a Lancia Betagrale - but that's a quite different matter.
Cheers, Dave.


arrow v8

8 posts

91 months

Sunday 27th September 2009
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dave de roxby said:
Lancia Betagrale
Interesting!!! smile

arrow v8

8 posts

91 months

Monday 28th September 2009
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Hi Dave..... For me the 5.7 litre Ford unit is not a practical solution as I would have to do some serious mods to physically get it in. The Sunbeam Tiger isn't really a fair comparison as the Rapier was designed for a four pot banger which had to be slant mounted for the bonnet to shut but would probably have been different if they had intended to put a larger engine option in the sales brochure.

Also..... for a daily driver a small block Ford is a thirsty beast to accommodate and as you said earlier in the thread so much power in a small car would be difficult to handle. I'm not looking for crazy power figures.... just something a little more than the average hatchback driver would expect from a 40 year old car. So for me I'm thinking of 200 - 220 bhp. This I think would be more than adequate for a car that weighs in at around one metric tonne.

My plan is to use 2 small turbos such as Garrett T2's ....... cheap to buy second hand (think Rover 200's) they are quick to spool and with 2 installed will not need to be thrashed as we are only looking for small boost figures. Apart from them all you need are the exhaust fittings and maybe a little custom pipe work making up. I already have most all the LPG stuff from previous cars I have had but can all be bought NOS on ebay for around £500 including the carbs. The engine itself remains stock so no parts problems in the future AND can be returned to it's original spec' should you decide you want to sell it on in the future providing you keep all the stuff like SU's, original exhaust manifolds etc.

Total cost for me is going to be around £700 - £800 cos I already have most all the LPG kit but for you think around the £1200 - £1400 mark. Bearing in mind that adjusting boost levels would give you way more than the power than I have in mind, I think that the costs are incredibly low. Especially when you take into account that Gordon Brown will pay the total cost of the mod's if I'm using the car regularly when you look at cost savings of LPG over petrol. smile Must certainly be cheaper than reboring, having custom pistons made, custom head gaskets etc etc and.... more power too (if you want it).

Burning LPG is also far less damaging to the environment than petrol so I can even say that my V8 is a greener option as well as keeping the engine clean of carbon deposits, oil keeps its viscosity longer so less engine wear etc. If you can live without petrol..... this one has to be a no brainer.

I notice you also have an XJC and a Humber Sceptre...... don't have a Humber but I do have an 'A' series Opel Manta and an XJC in the lock up that I was planning to restore as original but having done some serious customising to the Rapier I was thinking of maybe taking the cutting gear to the XJ ...... would make an excellent hotrod if you opened up the front and put some big wide wheels on the back ... only problem is the monocoque structure.... would have to be mounted on to a chassis or have some serious work done to the underneath of the car. Would need professional help to do it as is beyond my amateur welding expertise.

Tim.

dave de roxby

Original Poster:

540 posts

111 months

Monday 28th September 2009
quotequote all
arrow v8 said:
Hi Dave..... For me the 5.7 litre Ford unit is not a practical solution as I would have to do some serious mods to physically get it in. The Sunbeam Tiger isn't really a fair comparison as the Rapier was designed for a four pot banger which had to be slant mounted for the bonnet to shut but would probably have been different if they had intended to put a larger engine option in the sales brochure.

Tim.
Hi Tim, Well, you certainly have some ambitious projects in your mind! Take some advice from an old bodger and focus on one project at a time. That way you stand a chance of actually achieveing your dream. Made the mistake myself of having too much on the go all at one time (always tempted to buy 'bargain' classics just because they were there) you end up going nowhere!

As for the Ford V8, the one in the old Tiger was actually only 4.2 litres and as a cooking engine pumped out less than 200bhp in stock form. The Tiger was basically the original Sunbeam Alpine sportscar, made with the same basic four-pot Rootes engine as in your Arrow. Your Arrow engine bay is slightly wider but they had to slant the engine to gain a lower bonnet line as you say. So there's definitely room to fit the small block Ford (wasn't suggesting the larger 5.7 and ++ V8's).

For better economy and ease of sourcing parts, the Rover is a better bet or you should really consider a modern V6. All I was saying is that, in this instance, I really don't think the Daimler is the way to go - but its your choice! I have plenty of experience with XJ's (got 6 at the moment) and suggest you go easy before chopping one. Sills and floors are always suspect, even when they look solid, esp on the coupes. Same with XJS's. Take some time and learn to weld properly. Its easy enough these days with MIG and TIG etc and will pay you back a fortune over a lifetime plus open the door to some of your wilder schemes! Good luck anway.
Dave.

aeropilot

13,005 posts

143 months

Monday 28th September 2009
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dave de roxby said:
So there's definitely room to fit the small block Ford (wasn't suggesting the larger 5.7 and ++ V8's)
I used to know a guy back in the early eighties that had fitted a 'warm' 289 into his Hillman Hunter.....plenty of room IIRC.
The sixties era 260/289/302's are very compact.


arrow v8

8 posts

91 months

Monday 28th September 2009
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dave de roxby said:
Hi Tim, Well, you certainly have some ambitious projects in your mind! Take some advice from an old bodger and focus on one project at a time. That way you stand a chance of actually achieveing your dream. Made the mistake myself of having too much on the go all at one time (always tempted to buy 'bargain' classics just because they were there) you end up going nowhere!

No intentions of starting on the Jag till the 'Arrocuda' is on the road.... couldn't do even if I wanted too cos the lock up is only big enough to work on one car at once whilst I can squeeze the Manta and the Jag in as well but not enough space to even open the doors until I get the Rapier out of there. The XJ was going to be scrapped even though the previous owner to the guy I bought it off had done all the work to the floors and sills..... but the guy I bought it off (I only gave £250) had lost his storage and had to sell or scrap. So can afford to sit on it for a while.

My panel welding is ok but these days the DOT regulations for chassis and monocoque modifications are very stringent and heavily modded cars are given a hard time at inspection so would need to know that the method adopted would be OK with them before starting. Customs are not as ambitious as people think you just have to have a flair for working the metal into shape using the eye rather than working from drawings. Rest of it is down to the imagination. the bit I like is the look on peoples faces, which, so far. has been everything from..... "Oh No!! How could you do that to a classic?" (Alex, the guy who has the Daimler V8 saloon) to ....... WOW!!! ...... Excellent!! (Nick, the guy with the lock up opposite who's hobby is writing off Astra GTE's).

Tim.

RW774

1,042 posts

139 months

Monday 28th September 2009
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Best you visit the Doctor and tell him about this mania,good councelling should help you see sensebiglaugh